Prophecy & Trelawney

[Alz]

Credit to Forte on this one ...


He questioned me ... I must confess that, at first, I thought he seemed ill-disposed towards Divination ... and I remember I was starting to feel a little odd, I had not eaten much that day ... but then ...

....

'... but then we were rudely interrupted by Severus Snape!'
'What?'
'Yes, there was a commotion outside the door and it flew open, and there was that rather uncouth barman standing there with Snape, who was waffling about having come the wrong way up the stairs ...


OMG - :eek:
Dont you see it - Dumbledore said that Sybil was unaware of what she predicited ...
BUT - yet she could perfectly re-tell the incident with the eavesdropper - and we know that the eavesdropper was ejected after hearing the first part of the Prophecy ... which means Sybil continued to tell more after the indident .... and most of all, she was bloody aware of what was going on!
Heck she could re-tell the details very nicely - so why the heck does Dumbledore tell Harry she is unaware?
Harry has never confronted her on the details because Dumbledore tells him it would be wise she didnt know - could this be a major Dumbledore lie!
Think about it - tell Harry she isnt aware, tell Harry best not to tell her - Harry would never go to her and ask her details about it - but yet fate steps in and Harry is far too annoyed to really understand what he was hearing and to question does Sybil really know?

EDIT Also - figure in that maybe Dumbledore told Sybil never to tell Harry about the details - and that is why she never let on she knew the details directly to Harry! :eek: :D

[Fortescue]

I sort of have a hard time believing that Trelawney is bright enough to keep that type of secret. I think if she knew something like that she would lock Harry away in her tower and read his tea leaves all day.

I think probably her remarks were more general to the fact that she recalled seeing Snape, but she did admit that she hadn't ate anything all day and was a bit light headed. Maybe she takes being light headed as the same thing as making an actual prediction.

After all that happened to her in OotP, and the fact that in HBP she had to share her teaching job with someone else, it seemed to make something wake within her. She seemed in tune with things in HBP, way more then any of the previous years.

[Seeker615]

I always found that odd too.

That is why I am wondering if Snape did indeed hear the whole prophecy. How could she start a prediction stop and hear the commotion and then continue? Also when DD put that memory in the penseive we heard the whole thing and there was no stopping in the middle.

[Alz]

See that is the exact questions I was looking for - Sybil quite clearly remembers Snape being there - we are told by Dumbledore that the 'eavesdropper' was ejected half way through - Sybil saw him with Aberforth - so clearly we have some questions to address here ...
Dumbledore gives the impression Sybil is not there mentally during her Prophecies and to be fair to that we had a demonstration in PoA - but, and always a but - her facts speak for themselves - she was able to recall events half way through!
This of course leads weight to the thinking that there is more to the prophecy and also that the prophecy seemed like it was broken - but the fact Sybil came back half way through just seems plain freaky if she had no recall on the prophecy itself - I sense a lie by someone!
Heck, i'm not dismissing the idea that perhaps she concealed this from Dumbledore - i.e. she was awake and just pretended to Dumbledore she was out of it - but the facts as written in HBP stand for themselves!

[Seeker615]

Right Alz.

That is why I think she told the whole prophecy through and came out of it and heard the commotion and Snape was snagged eavesdropping. Do you think he may have said he only heard a part of it? Or did he and DD have a talk after Snape came back to join the good side and agreed to only tell Voldy a part of the prophecy in hopes it would lead to his downfall? (Of course not realizing that the Potters would be in danger because of it)

[Sirius Potter Fan]

I don't believe for a minute that she is aware of when she makes a "real" prophecy. I think what most likely, that she started the prophesy, the comotion broke the trance (with her still not knowing she had done anything) then once the comotion ended, the "spirit" came back to her and finished the prophecy. If she was totaly unaware of being in a trance once, she would have been unaware as she returned to it after Snape was gone. It would seem to her like nothing at all had happened. So, I believe that Trelawney is totaly clueless about the prophecy as DD has told us and as we have figured out from reading (she was unaware of anything happening in PoA when she predicted Wormtail returning to Voldemort)

Then as far as the memory of the prophecy being complete, that may have simply been "trimmed" to just the relevant informatin, we do know that people can modify their own memories, as Sluggy did, but with his talent, I think DD could d a much better seemless job!

[Fortescue]

I think the entire thing could be a ruse, the part with Snape overhearing the prophecy. The only way it would work the way it is laid out is if Snape heard the first part of the prophecy because he had his ear to the door, then he was interrupted by Aberforth and that is why he missed the ending of it, the most important part. If Aberforth caught him halfway through the prophecy and Snape spent a moment blubbering out his excuse, that would have caused him to miss the end of it and would be why she would have seen him when Aberforth opened the door to tell Dumbledore what had happened. She would have been done with her trance at that point, and thus noticed Snape.

[Alz]

Right Alz.

That is why I think she told the whole prophecy through and came out of it and heard the commotion and Snape was snagged eavesdropping. Do you think he may have said he only heard a part of it? Or did he and DD have a talk after Snape came back to join the good side and agreed to only tell Voldy a part of the prophecy in hopes it would lead to his downfall? (Of course not realizing that the Potters would be in danger because of it)
This has been suggested a few time - Dumbledore used it to set the wheels in motion ...
My best argument with that is the regret Snape felt, as Dumbledore told Harry at the end of HBP - if it was a well executed plan then Snape shouldn't feel so guilty that his information lead Voldemort on his path.
Forte makes a good point, alas IMHO I think not correct but still plausible - perhaps Snape did hear the start and then the events of being caught eavesdropping lead to him missing the last part and thus the affray broke into the room just as Sybil finished up ...
I would add one more thought to this - why did Dumbledore let Snape go, it would appear he knew pretty much all DE's because of his order work and should therefore have known Snape would go back to Voldemort - and he was aware that the eavesdropper heard the first part - so perhaps we are back to what Seeker is suggesting - it was executed as a plan ... not even Dumbledore could have known then that Harry would be the boy - could have been Neville!

Still OT somewhat - I really am starting to think Sybil know the prophecy and she is exactly like Harry - asked by Dumbledore not to tell because of the effects it would have on the other party - crap even Dumbledore re-iterated to Harry it would be unwise for Sybil to find it all out - I just have this image of him giving the same speech to Sybil ...
Has Harry ever told anyone, no, he kept his word to Dumbledore .... I think Sybil would do the Headmaster the same service!

[Fortescue]

I know this is sort of "out there" but what if, going on my prior assumption that Snape was interrupted half way though the prophecy and the reason Trelawney knew he was there was because by the time Snape made his excuses to Aberforth, she was done with her trance.

But what if????

I know it sounds out there, but if she was in a trance, what if the act of Aberforth busting in to tell Dumbledore he caught Snape, what if she wasn't done and simply came out of her trance because of the ruckus? What if there was more to the prophecy that she never got to finish?

It seems she doesn't remember making the prophecy, but she does remember what drew her attention to the door, Snape's waffling about how he took the wrong way up the stairs. It could be possible that it was enough noise to break her trance and she never finished her prediction. Maybe there was another stanza?????

[ThirdProphecy]

hi,

given the wording of Trelawney's story, I rather think that Snape was caught listening while she was in trance and telling the first part. He missed the second part of the prophecy while inventing a story for Aberforth and trying to escape (IMO). Then either the noise Snape and Aberforth created woke Trelawney up or she's just through with the prophecy when Snape is led in the room.

As POA proofs (and SPF mentionned before), Trelawney does not remember her prophecies and her trance (Jo generally uses the caracter of Dumbledore to tell us the truth, not for giving a possibly biased view), so from her point of view, the interruption would appear to her just like happening in the middle of the "normal" conversation with Dumbledore questionning her. She would consider Snape an ignorant and rude intruder making her interview even more difficult.

The wording of Trelawneys sentence
'... but then we were rudely interrupted by Severus Snape!'
'What?'
'Yes, there was a commotion outside the door and it flew open, and there was that rather uncouth barman standing there with Snape, who was waffling about having come the wrong way up the stairs ...
fits also perfectly this way. Personnally, I can not imagine a prophecy or a trance beeing interrupted and then be continued exactly where it stopped and with the same level of trance...!? Sounds not very plausible to me, but then I'm perhaps too logic-orientated... ;)

cu around,
TP :)

[Alz]

But see read that part again - we know that she was able to eyeball Snape - Snape claims only to have heard the first part - so either the struggle broke out and Snape was drowned out from hearing by Aberforth - or she really did stop half way through - able to recognise Snape - then drifted back into her trance.
I just think something is up with that picture - I accept the explanation on her continuing and Snape not getting the remains of it because of his struggle - but I just wonder if this is another 'overlooked' pointer?

[Seeker615]

I'm going with the she told the whole prophecy to Dumbledore without interruption. Dumbledore put in that part of his memory in the pensieve for Harry to view and we heard it very clearly.

It could be possible that Snape didn't hear the whole thing because Aberforth approached him.

It's very cloudy because you would think Dumbledore would not have let Snape go. He had to have known that Snape would have heard at least part of the prophecy. In book six Dumbledore even tells Harry that Snape was on the bad side and the info he heard would be important to voldy. So why release him?

There is a lot more than we know...

[Glumbumble]

I must confess that, at first, I thought he seemed ill-disposed towards Divination ... and I remember I was starting to feel a little odd, I had not eaten much that day ... but then ...'
And now Harry was paying attention properly for the first time, for he knew what had happened then: Professor Trelawney had made the prophecy that had altered the course of his whole life, the prophecy about him and Voldemort.
'... but then we were rudely interrupted by Severus Snape!'
'What?'
'Yes, there was a commotion outside the door and it flew open, and there was that rather uncouth barman standing with Snape, who was waffling about having come the wrong way up the stairs, although I'm afraid that I myself rather thought he had been apprehended eavesdropping on my interview with Dumbledore - you see, he himself was seeking a job at the time, and no doubt hoped to pick up tips! Well, after that, you know, Dumbledore seemed much more disposed to give me a job, and I could not help thinking, Harry, that it was because he appreciated the stark contrast between my own unassuming manners and quiet talent, compared to the pushing, thrusting young man who was prepared to listen at keyholes –

I think that the prophecy was completed, as Dumbledore’s memory suggests, before Snape was forced into the room by Aberforth. My guess is that Aberforth had spotted Snape heading for stairs and rushed off to tell him that rooms with a goat were 2 galleons extra. Snape would have been interrupted by Aberforth at the bottom of the stairs and heard no more of the prophecy and was pushed into the room by Aberforth once he had reached the top of the stairs.

I think that the real question is why was Snape listening in the first place? It is not as if there would have been warning of the prophecy and an interview with a prospective teacher couldn’t have been that important for Voldemort to know about. On the other hand I have always wondered why Trelawney was not interviewed at the school.

[secret seeker]

I dont think Dumbledore really wanted a divination teacher, he was just being courteous when he started the interview with trelawney, unaware what was to transpire. Spot on about snape and Aberforth, Glumbumble, thats exactly what would have happened.

[tobias]

The idea that Snape reported back to Voldemort only part of the prophecy makes sense in light of our knowing he would soon be a spy/faux Death Eater.

If he reported back on his own and did not consult with Dumbledore until after the GH incident, it would explain better the remorse he felt. His regret would be the feeling he could have done things differently: regretting he had the chance to save Lily and did not see it, would seem to make sense. Unless this great remorse over James has something to do with the "life debt" he owes James for saving him from the werewolf, I cannot see any reason for Snape to regret James' death.

[nymphadora_tonks]

Another idea could be that she was so deep into her prophecy she had no idea what was going on in her inviroment and only heard about the ruckus via gossip after the fact. The magical community is generally not tight lipped. She just kinda maade up her own memories based on what she was told to fill in the gaps and to make herself seem more. . . dignified shall we say than Snivellus, ah Severus

[Arwan]

I was just wondering how the prophecy went from Trelawney and Dumbledore to being placed in the orb? Is this similar to a pensive were the memory is taken and placed inside? Who changed the lable to add Harry after the question mark once Dumbledore knew that he was the chosen one? How were they able to do this if only Harry or Voldemort could touch it to remove it from the shelf?

Sorry I'm quite confused about this.