to make a Horcrux

[Sirius Potter Fan]

I was listening to HBP today and picked up on an idea. We haven't been given many clues on how a Horcrux is made other than that the maker has to have murdered and removed the part of his soul that was split.

Well, listening to the part where DD takes Harry into the pensive to see the time DD first met Tiddle in the orphanage. DD makes a specific point to emphasize to Harry how Riddle had stolen items from those he had hurt to keep as a kind of "trophy". It could be somethig that he just liked to do, and probably started that way, however, what if, when you make a Horcrux, the item you use must belong to the person killed? we know that was true for Gaunt and the ring, but what about the others . . . didn't he kill the lady with the cup?

[kashlie]

interesting, very interesting, and i think you may be on to something!!

now to put them all together...

wait...if Harry was going to be for a horcrux, couldn't he then be a descendant of Gryffindor? that would make the sword technically Harry's.....

[Vold. E. Mort]

"only a TRUE Griffindor could have pulled that sword out of the hat......."

Personally, I'm convinced Harry is a Griffindor, based on the address of his parents' home.. Godric Hollow. Plus, the irony of having the Heir of Slytherin face the Heir of Griffindor is so cliche, JKR can't help but use it..

[The Frozen North]

I'm not 100% sure of this, but didn't JKR rule out that Harry is a decendant of Griffondor?

[Seeker615]

Tom had a diary that was also a horcrux and I don't think it belonged to anyone but him. And if Nagini is a horcrux I wouldn't imagine anyone owning her.

I think Voldy wanted items that meant something to him or were significant in some way (such as a personal item from each house founder) The diary DD said was important because it showed that Voldy attended Hogwarts and was dated. That is why I don't see how Nagini can be a horcrux. I still think voldemort had an item from Gryffindor with him the night he went to kill Harry, after Voldy fell at the hands of baby Harry the item was probably discarded in the rubble, and possibly a piece of soul that was to be inserted into the item went into Harry instead.

Another thought- What if by chance the item was the Gryffindor sword and it was retrieved from the rubble of Godrics Hollow and given back to DD?

[Vold. E. Mort]

The sword came out of the hat. Prior that that, the whereabouts were unknown.

[Alz]

I'm not 100% sure of this, but didn't JKR rule out that Harry is a decendant of Griffondor?
Have to admit mate - I also though she killed the idea that Harry was a descendant of Gryffindor also ... I will need to go JKR interview hunting :rolleyes:

It is an interesting premise - but I was under the impression Dumbledore wanted Harry to understand that because he told him it would be important later - and the point was Voldemort was a collector ...
But what I like about this idea is the mass murderer thing - there has been many murderers that took things from the victims as part of their spree of terror ... wouldn't that also fit in here so nicely!
I'm not about to blow the idea out of the water although I do feel as I said above, Dumbledore just wanted Harry to know that Voldemort was a collector - and that was somewhat solidified when Harry asked him about the ring and mouth organ .. and the famous line 'the mouth organ was only ever a mouth organ' - as much as Dumbledore pretended otherwise he knew exactly what Voldemort was up to and the only thing Sluggy memory/Harry gave him was the possible amount of horcruxes used.
The point was - the objects were only important at that time because Voldemort took them from people he bullied and hurt - but never killed at that time ... well unless you count the thing he hung from the rafters ... ;)

So, lets look at this in more detail and I will try and offer some support ...

Ring - was sealed with death of his father/grand parents and stolen from other side of his family (Marvolo and Morfin)

Cup and locket - one could have been sealed with the death of Hephzibah Smith, who was also a decedent of Hufflepuff - my fav would be the cup!

Well, those kind of fit the model right?

[Sirius Potter Fan]

OK, the diary . . . and yes this is reaching but possible . . . the diary was Riddles, or at least in his possesion. Although there are no grounds for this, it is possible that he could have stolen it from someone he had killed and it just hadn't been used yet. the scenario could be Billy Smith just bought a diary runs into Riddle and somehow ticks him off. Riddle doesn't feel like messing with him so just pulls his wand and AK. He picks up the diary Billy had just bought and makes it into a horcrux, then later also uses it to record is actions in the chamber. Like I said, reaching, but a possibility. He could have even stolen the diary, and come back to kill "Billy" years later to make it into the horcrux after the memories had been put into it.

And yes, DD was trying to impress that Riddle/Voldemort was a collector . . . but why was that fact so important . . . why is collecting peoples things significant, if not for their possible relevance for the Horcruxes he planned to make?

[Seeker615]

I thought DD mentioned the diary was toms. It had his name on the backof it. I assumed he bought it when he went to Hogwarts. And if Nagini is a horcrux (don't think she is) I wouldn't think anyone owned her prior.

I just wish we had more info on the process of making a horcrux.

Would you have to have the item first and prepare it to receive the soul? Or would you need to murder first and get the item after?

[Sirius Potter Fan]

Tom was in possesion of it, and could have put his name on it himself a far as that goes . . . I think when you make the Horcrux, there would have to be some kind of preparation, but probably not enought that would take any significant time, and also . . . how long after you murder can you remove the split portion of your soul? I would think there would be some time, but not overly long.

On Nagini . . . I don't believe she is a horcrux, simply because I don't believe a living being can be a horcrux. DD seemed to focus on objects not people or creatures. (and yes, I also do not believe that Harry is a horcrux either then!)

[Alz]

See whereas I think Nagini is the biggest clue to HiaH - Dumbledore tells Harry that you can use living animals but it isn't advisable - Dumbledore admits he might be very wrong about something and I feel this is it - but that is a separate discussion, just search for Harry is a Horcrux! ;)

Going to the very first time we are to assume that Riddle killed - his father and Grandparents ... we saw his with Morfin, then Dumbledore fills in the story that Voldemort went and killed the Riddles and came back, fitted up Morfin for the crime, took his ring and gone.
Next we have Voldemort, with ring, asking Slughorn about Horcruxes - not how to make them as such but more about having more than one ... Sluggy does tell Voldemort there is a spell - he didn't know what it was - so in order to seal a horcrux it requires a spell ... so we have Voldemort wearing the ring at this time - he had killed but I don't think he had sealed his first horcrux, because he was wearing that ring still - so I think once he realised he could make more than one, he then sealed the ring and thus proceeded to create number 2 - I am guessing the diary - who's death I am not too certain on but fair to say that Voldemort not only chose specific objects but also significant deaths - it was the grand effect, use an important object and death to seal it - Hephzibah and the Hufflepuff cup would seem like another match ... point is I am trying to make is that perhaps the object and the killing do tie into each other - Harry's death being used as a Horcrux would have been worthy but doesn't it make you wonder what Voldemort planned to seal with it - did he have the object with him or perhaps even the object was in GH and Voldemort knew - because that could be what Harry finds when he goes back to Godric's Hollow!

Sorry - not sure that helped the whole debate too much - but in closing I am working with the idea that the death and the object are tied and thus perfect in Voldemort's mind because he had a significant death used to make a strong Horcrux in a significant object!

[Sirius Potter Fan]

Well, If Harry's death was to be used for a horcrux, then it would be quite possible that the object would be present at GH, and may be found. Only, do you think Voldemort would wait that long to make his 7th horcrux? He asked sluggy about Horcruxes about 39 years before he tried to kill Harry. I think that was more than enough time for him to have completed his collection. I just can't see him waiting that long, especialy all that time not even knowing that Harry would ever exist.

I still think linking the object and the person killed is likely. It could be what helps Harry locate the remaining horcruxes. If you could find out who Voldemort killed himself . . . (I think he only bothered himself with "special" murders, and had the DE's do the rest) . . . then what significance that person may have had to some object . . . Harry will yave to have some way of figuring them all out.

[Vold. E. Mort]

Point taken Alz, and that would imply that whatever object Voldemort carried with him that night must have been of tremendous significance because he was going to destroy the boy from the prophecy. That must have been the center of Voldemort world at the time, thus he would have used something of critical importance for it. When he "died", that object would have been left in the rubble of the Potter home. I've always wondered...... What happened to Voldemort's body when he hit Harry with the AK? Surely he's buried/entombed somewhere..

[Seeker615]

I assumed his body vaporized when the spell backfired.

I am still wondering if by chance the Gryffinodor sword was to be the seventh horcrux, and after voldy failed it was found and safely returned to Dumbledore.

Seems to make some sense as the Potters were Gryffindors and if he got it away from DD somehow it would be a real significant object to put a horcrux in.

[Vold. E. Mort]

As I, and others, have said before. The first known appearance of the Gryffindor sword was when Harry pulled it out of the hat.

[Alz]

I believe that when Voldemort went to seal the ultimate and last horcrux, such an important death, that he had the best of the best objects in mind.
Unless he had inside knowledge of the contents of the Potters house and had an object in mind, I think he actually took along the object and wished to seal the killing and Horcrux straight away.
The object, it would seem logical, would tie in with the Potters and the killing of Harry so once again the importance of the killing/death was continued in the object selected - as we said it didnt go to plan and in fact I think he did seal a horcrux - but with his own vanquishing!

[Sirius Potter Fan]

I just reread the Horcrux chapter this morning, and, DD believed that Voldemort had planned to use Harry to seal the last horcrux, so . . . although convincing, it just doesn't make sense that Voldemort would have waited so long to complete his collection, especialy since he had no previous knowledge of Harry before the prophecy, how could he wait for something he didn't know was coming. Of course, DD was just making an assumption as well.

The object Voldemort would have wanted to use for the last horcrux, would have indeed needed to be a very significant and meaningful piece. But it was not the sword. DD said the sword was the only known relic of Godric, and that he had had it at all times. I like to pick at the "only known relic", as a possible exception. It could be possible that Voldemort knew of and possibly had possesion of the object that had belonged to Godric. The name of the home is just too suggestive, wormtail could have easily told Voldemort all that the Potters had, as well as where they were, he would do anything to please Voldemort.

When Voldemort failed to kill Harry, he also failed to complete the 6th Horcrux, and that is why DD believes he may have made Nagini into a horcrux, although he considered it unwise.

[Luna]

Quick question......

Do we know that when a Horcrux is made it has to be by the person who committed the killing or could it by something he was controlling?

It's just I was thinking of the diary. I've never been convinced that Tom Riddle would have bought the diary. He just doesn't seem to be the type of person who would want to record his most intimate thoughts. Picking up on SPF's post above about the diary being stolen and following the thought process that each killing must use an item that belongs to that person, What if the diary horcrux was sealed when Moaning Myrtle was killed and it was her diary. That would fit the model if the timing is right....

[Alz]

I just reread the Horcrux chapter this morning, and, DD believed that Voldemort had planned to use Harry to seal the last horcrux, so . . . although convincing, it just doesn't make sense that Voldemort would have waited so long to complete his collection, especialy since he had no previous knowledge of Harry before the prophecy, how could he wait for something he didn't know was coming. Of course, DD was just making an assumption as well.

We are lead to believe by Dumbledore and Riddles comments that he wanted a 7 part soul - this means his ambition was to create 6 significant deaths to seal his horcruxes - this means I am perfectly happy to believe he waited all those years to seal The Final Horcrux - because it fitted his model just fine, that last death was a real trophy kill, the only person that could vanquish him - heck he would have waited all eternity to seal his last horcrux to complete the 7 part soul if it could be a real collectors item - really worthy of his soul!

Dont want to OT but something struck me today - when Riddle was talking to Sluggy he already had the ring - but was wearing it - question is was this already a horcrux or was this really the defining moment Dumbledore thought and the first horcrux was sealed after the information gathering?
Or was he that complacent he wore is own horcrux - would seem rather stupid to me!

Sluggy told Harry there is a spell - he didnt know what it was - but that was used to seal a Horcrux - you have to wonder two things from that - where did he learn the term Horcrux, leading to asking Sluggy - and how did he find out the spell that allowed him to seal a hocrux - because I am not convinced he had his first one by this time - he had killed but I dont think he has sealed just yet!

[Sirius Potter Fan]

Sluggy told Harry (http://www.thefinalhorcrux.com/forum/showthread.php?p=26186#) there is a spell - he didnt know what it was - but that was used to seal a Horcrux - you have to wonder two things from that - where did he learn the term Horcrux, leading to asking Sluggy - and how did he find out the spell that allowed him to seal a hocrux - because I am not convinced he had his first one by this time - he had killed but I dont think he has sealed just yet!

I was thinking about that too when I read that part last. I think since he asked Sluggy first how to make a Horcrux, before asking if 7 could be made, that he honestly did not know how to do it yet, so the ring wasn't a Horcrux then. I think so much depends on whether you have to remove the split part of the soul imediately to make the Horcrux, or if you can wait, days. . . weeks . . . or possibly months or years. If you can wait, then it would be possible still that he used the soul split from the Riddle's murders to seal the ring.

Luna, I like the idea of Riddle taking the diary from Myrtle, only I believe that he didn't directly kill her, but set the basilisk loose, and she was killed when she looked at it's eyes. It may be possible that that could still have split his soul since he was ultimately responsible for her death since he had opened the chamber, and being the first death caused by him, would certainly have been enough reason for the diary to have had value to him, enough value for him to consider it for a Horcrux later on.

[Alz]

I suppose what puzzles me the most is where Riddle finally got the pieces together and the spell to do the act - he finds out a term horcrux, he questions Sluggy and gets the low-down - where could he have gone to fill the blanks and get that spell?
We know that Hermione, queen of the library, could only find a mention of the word in the Hogwarts library and all the teachers were banned from talking about it ... but he was able to get the spell from somewhere.
I just wonder once we know how he found the spell - it would give more clues on how you actually seal the horcrux - or perhaps it is one of those things we will never be told :(

[Sirius Potter Fan]

I don't think we will be told in the next book, but possibly an interview question or some such.

My guess, is that he was most likely no stranger to Knockturn Alley, and since he worked at B&B later on in a high position at that, he was likely a regular customer already. That would be a good place to find books the Hogwarts library wouldn't have I think; also, not too bad a place to meet and talk to other "helpful" dark wizards.

[SnarkologyMajor]

My feeling is that the question of where he got the info. is the key to the whole thing, of course I'm partial to the idea that Salazar's locket had alot more to it than just powers:D And the Bloody Baron seems to be a pretty good candidate for Tom's info. on horcrux creation...w/all the "gaunt" references and the silver blood stains, I still think that unicorn blood may be essential in the making of a horcrux. When I read what Firenze says about this in Book 1-it just ties together.

[Sirius Potter Fan]

I suppose the Bloody Barron could be a possibility, but I'm getting hung up on the Unicorn blood stains though. I don't think he would use the unicorn blood to make a Horcrux, I think Sluggy said it was a spell, and an object that were necessary. I think it possible that the BB may have the knowledge of how to make a Horcrux however. He certainly was unwilling to leave our world, he was drinking Unicorn blood to sustain his life, and became a ghost because he still didn't want to leave. I can see him continuing to seek knowledge on how to sustain imortality, or trying to help someone in his house learn the secrets.

Now here's a scary thought . . . But I think this needs it's own thread!

[Alz]

Voldemort would not have consumed the unicorn blood because he knew it sustained life but it also halved it - the only reason he used it when he was a spirit was because he knew he was hosted in another's body and the effects of drinking the blood wouldn't effect him so much - he knew his Horcruxes worked because he was still around - so not like the blood could half his life too much there - he was practically immortal!
I'm not convinced the BB would have been the giver of the information - he stands testament to what happens when you try and cheat death and if he had known about horcruxes - he would have employed one or two himself!

[cagedcactus]

One thing has been cleared. The making of a Horcrux invlolves the spell (which is unknown and we dont know how riddle got it), a Vessel (to carry the part of your soul which is split at the time of murder), and the act of murder itself.
So that means the death can be caused with any deadly spell or weapon, no only Avada Kedavra. But addition to that, the other spell, to create the horcrux, must be cast.
The question remains, where and when Riddle found this information. And why he waited so long to create all the horcruxes. Maybe time is a factor here too.

[Alz]

Never considered mortally wounding someone as a means to kill them - I thought Wizards were beyond mortal wounding but then look at the potion in the cave - that would have killed the drinker eventually ... so ummm.
What I would say to that - I think the reason you have to AK or something is that YOU are causing the death - not an object or substance - with AK you rip the life from someone ... and we know killing rips the soul - just seems more right if you are the object that actually causes the death - you are more likely to have really ripped your soul ... but you make a good point and I am not discounting that!

As far as the time he took - Voldemort was a perfectionist - there was rhyme and reason to his horcruxes - look for a thread called 'the perfect horcrux' or something - Voldemort wanted his horcruxes to be perfect - that meant the killing, the object and the location of concealment were all planned - he didn't want to litter his precious soul - he wanted it preserved in a fitting fashion!

[peanutgal1]

I have a theory. In Book 6 DD wonders why Voldemort has come for a job interview for a position DD will never give him. We are also told about a wand movement by Voldemort while he is in the office. In Book 5, JKR takes two sentences to tell us that the door knob to DD's office is a griffin. GRIFFENDOOR. Get it?

Maybe this is a clue that the door knob is a Griffindor relic and that Voldemort used it for a Horcrux. It would be very safe inside Hogwarts.

[cagedcactus]

I have a theory. In Book 6 DD wonders why Voldemort has come for a job interview for a position DD will never give him. We are also told about a wand movement by Voldemort while he is in the office. In Book 5, JKR takes two sentences to tell us that the door knob to DD's office is a griffin. GRIFFENDOOR. Get it?

Maybe this is a clue that the door knob is a Griffindor relic and that Voldemort used it for a Horcrux. It would be very safe inside Hogwarts.

hmmmm....
You are true about that wand movement. You are aalso true about griffin.
But you lost me when you said that Voldy used it for a Horcrux....
He didnt murder anyone there, so how did he use that griffin for a vessel?
I cant believe that DD touched that door knob for all these years and didnt know what happened to it, if it was in fact a horcrux.
back to topic now....
I agree ALZ. the act of murder may have to be done by a spell and not an object in order to create horcrux.
But see, regardless of that, an act of murder always rips your soul. Object or spell, killer is a killer after all. An act of murder is an act of murder, anyway commited.
But again, your second paragraph made a lot of sense. Voldemort is different than our theories. For him, everything has to be perfect. Even vessels that carry his souls have to be precious things. So yeah, I agree that objects or substances are not used to murder all those people.

[peanutgal1]

Perhaps the kill does not have to be contemporaneous with the creation of a horcrux. In GoF, the last spells in Voldemort's wand were easily retrieved. The wand movement in DD's office could have been the spell being cast as well as the kill being placed into the vessel. Also, unlike a horcrux an object like the ring, protective spells would not have to be cast on the doorknob since it was already protected by its proximity to DD. The complicating (and compelling ) factor is the Harry said that he would not return to Hogwarts for his seventh year. Therefore, the doorknob would be even less detectable.
Perhaps JKR will leave a horcrux unfound. That way, she may revive the series at some future date.

[cagedcactus]

Perhaps the kill does not have to be contemporaneous with the creation of a horcrux. In GoF, the last spells in Voldemort's wand were easily retrieved. The wand movement in DD's office could have been the spell being cast as well as the kill being placed into the vessel. Also, unlike a horcrux an object like the ring, protective spells would not have to be cast on the doorknob since it was already protected by its proximity to DD. The complicating (and compelling ) factor is the Harry said that he would not return to Hogwarts for his seventh year. Therefore, the doorknob would be even less detectable.
Perhaps JKR will leave a horcrux unfound. That way, she may revive the series at some future date.
hmmmm..
you know, you have a good point here. But some logic is missing.
we were never told that Horcrux has to be created at the time of murder. But here is my thinking.
- Creation of Horcrux requires that moment of Murder. Why? Because if you do such a cruel and horrible act, your soul rips at that moment. That moment is the one when you can catch that ripped soul and store it in a vessel. So yes, you would have to create the Horcrux at the time of murder and not long after it. Because if you wait, that feeling, that moment, and that ripped soul is gone.
- Your wand shows what spells you cast. Your wand also may have soul fragments of the people you killed, like Voldy had. But your Wand does not store that split soul of yours when you murder someone. So waiting will lose your ripped soul.
- Voldemort would want his hard work stored at a place with lot of protection over it, like that cave. His own protection, not others. Voldemort might be arrogant and selfish, but had his own fears. He always was scared of DD. He would not leave a horcrux unguarded at the door of such a powerful Wizard.
That griffin is an excellent choice. But location of it prevents me from thinking of it as a horcrux. But then again, I have been proved wrong before by JKR, so you never know. :D

[peanutgal1]

I bet the answer is in "Hogwarts, a History."

[Alz]

Agreed - peanutgal1's theory is kinda compelling - I'm not a full subscriber, I mean would a door handle be a fitting enough object for his soul fragment - but cant dismiss the logic there!

I think we need to pick up on a point raised by cagedcactus - how soon must the object be sealed post the kill ...
Thinking on what we know and maybe some speculation - I think you might be right - the sealing has to take place quite quickly after the murder ...
Riddle Snr - Morfin's/Marvolo's ring - we know those situations took place in close proximity
Hepzibah Smith and the missing Hufflepuff cup and Slytherin Locket - I am sure Hepzibah, a true Hufflepuff, was used to seal the cup - in unison and fitting with my idea that the death, the object and the location all link together ...
Point I am making here - in both of those examples the killing took place close to the object - I am thinking this could be another clue - guessing who's death sealed the diary and where ...!

[peanutgal1]

I agree that we don't yet have enough information about the proximity in time and space between the kill and the creation of the horcrux. I actually think that due to the results of the prior incantatem spell, we know that no horcruxes have been created since before Voldemort killed Lilly and James.

[cagedcactus]

I agree that we don't yet have enough information about the proximity in time and space between the kill and the creation of the horcrux. I actually think that due to the results of the prior incantatem spell, we know that no horcruxes have been created since before Voldemort killed Lilly and James.
Are you sure about that?
When phoenix song rang out in that grave yard, and Harry's and Voldemorts spells met midair, lots of souls came out of Voldemort's wand. Of all those souls, that old caretaker's soul also came out, Who was killed just recently by Voldemort at the begining of the year.
Nagini was very close by to Voldemort. Maybe she became a Horcrux that night.
The only thing that prevents me from believing that is, Wormtail was right there. Would Voldemort risk the process of making a horcrux in front of Wormtail?
Maybe, if it was all non verbal.......... :eek:

[Alz]

Are you sure about that?
When phoenix song rang out in that grave yard, and Harry's and Voldemorts spells met midair, lots of souls came out of Voldemort's wand. Of all those souls, that old caretaker's soul also came out, Who was killed just recently by Voldemort at the begining of the year.
Nagini was very close by to Voldemort. Maybe she became a Horcrux that night.
The only thing that prevents me from believing that is, Wormtail was right there. Would Voldemort risk the process of making a horcrux in front of Wormtail?
Maybe, if it was all non verbal.......... :eek:
Actually I think you just applied more reasoning to the thinking Dumbledore was wrong when he assumed Nagini - because you are right he would never do it in full face of anyone and was he really able to do it considering he was a child like freaky thing well before his re-birth as the full and powerful Voldemort!
I think Nagini was destine for the job - but that was with the death of Harry in the graveyard.
I think there is once again a link to time of death, seal and object all being in proximity of each other - I just think there has to be an applicable pattern to horcruxes so Harry stands some chance of tracking down the missing horcruxes!

[cagedcactus]

And let us not forget the latest act of murder.
Amelia Bones.
A truly powerfull witch who was killed by Voldemort himself. Voldemort wasnt linked to any killings personally after he has reborn. Most of his bad acts are carried out by his followers. Why did he kill Amelia himself. Maybe a horcrux was sealed that moment? We do have the pattern here.
In Filch's words, "OH boy, are we in trouble......?"

[Alz]

It is interesting no - but the question is, would Voldemort compromise on his vision of a 7 part soul?
I think there is a chance he might, he knew that the diary was gone so perhaps set about creating a replacement - but then again that would be an 8th of his soul right?
7 is the most magical number - I am pretty sure he still beats to the same drum ...
Although Bones, how many times have we heard of that vendetta in the books - I think I had a thread in here about the Hufflepuff horcrux and it being in possession of a Hufflepuff for safe keeping - I was thinking Susan Bones .. but you never know ... the Bones family has come up over and over in the series!

[peanutgal1]

It is interesting no - but the question is, would Voldemort compromise on his vision of a 7 part soul?
I think there is a chance he might, he knew that the diary was gone so perhaps set about creating a replacement - but then again that would be an 8th of his soul right?
7 is the most magical number - I am pretty sure he still beats to the same drum ...
Although Bones, how many times have we heard of that vendetta in the books - I think I had a thread in here about the Hufflepuff horcrux and it being in possession of a Hufflepuff for safe keeping - I was thinking Susan Bones .. but you never know ... the Bones family has come up over and over in the series!

Alz, I left a post today regarding the seven horcruxes. I think that based on the information we have, there may be at least 8. Since it's off topic here, I won't discuss. But presumably, JKR is saving this last bit of information, how to make the horcrux, for Book 7. In the interim, it's been far too interesting speculating on what the horcruxes are.

[cagedcactus]

Well, let us follow the story and thinking of JKR, and assume that there are only 6 Horcruxes.
What we dont know is, did Voldemort replace one of his horcruxes or not?
He knows that diary is gone for sure. so after coming back keeping the number 7 was his priority or not?
If it was, I bet that happened with Amelia Bones. :eek:
I just hope it didnt.
Less trouble for Harry, you know.....

[peanutgal1]

Well, let us follow the story and thinking of JKR, and assume that there are only 6 Horcruxes.
What we dont know is, did Voldemort replace one of his horcruxes or not?
He knows that diary is gone for sure. so after coming back keeping the number 7 was his priority or not?
If it was, I bet that happened with Amelia Bones. :eek:
I just hope it didnt.
Less trouble for Harry, you know.....


I think that your theory regarding the Amelia Bones death--to make another horcux-is brilliant. We know that Voldemort is still very secretive and may only trust Snape. However, JKR says that the answer to the horcrux mystery-what/where they are-can be found by re-reading all of the books. That would suggest that another horcrux has not been made. As you note, if there is a new one, it could be virtually impossible for Harry to find it.
I'm now re-reading CoS and thought that one of the horcruxes could be Tom Riddle's award from special services to the school. I did a search on the internet and realized that this theory has been floating around for some time. It does seem to play into my belief that there is a horcrux att Hogwarts. By the way, JKR mentions the brass door knocker in the shape of a griffin in CoS as well. Hmmm

[cagedcactus]

I think that your theory regarding the Amelia Bones death--to make another horcux-is brilliant. We know that Voldemort is still very secretive and may only trust Snape. However, JKR says that the answer to the horcrux mystery-what/where they are-can be found by re-reading all of the books. That would suggest that another horcrux has not been made. As you note, if there is a new one, it could be virtually impossible for Harry to find it.
I'm now re-reading CoS and thought that one of the horcruxes could be Tom Riddle's award from special services to the school. I did a search on the internet and realized that this theory has been floating around for some time. It does seem to play into my belief that there is a horcrux att Hogwarts. By the way, JKR mentions the brass door knocker in the shape of a griffin in CoS as well. Hmmm
I admit that the I even felt reaching on the Amelia Bones theory. But Voldemort killing her himself felt kind of odd.
I respect your knowledge about that gryffin and that award. But as I mentioned in other thread, it seems very unlikely for Riddle to leave a Horcrux so close to Dumbledore.

[Alz]

..but think about that for a sec - how safe would the horcrux be ... I mean it was right under Dumbledore's nose - I can imagine Voldemort giggling with that thought each time Dumbledore annoys him - 'heck ok, he is more powerful yet still, doesnt know I stuck a horcrux right under his nose!' ...

I really dont think Voldemort would have gone beyond his magic 7 - I know he lost one but isnt going to be fooled into thinking by replacing it he still has a 7 part soul - he would know it is an 8 bit wonder ...
BUT - as I said before - I thought something was up with that - he had a real grudge with the McKinnons, Prewett's (hello Molly) and Bones family ... just look for the references of deaths in the books ... :p

[cagedcactus]

..but think about that for a sec - how safe would the horcrux be ... I mean it was right under Dumbledore's nose - I can imagine Voldemort giggling with that thought each time Dumbledore annoys him - 'heck ok, he is more powerful yet still, doesnt know I stuck a horcrux right under his nose!' ...

I really dont think Voldemort would have gone beyond his magic 7 - I know he lost one but isnt going to be fooled into thinking by replacing it he still has a 7 part soul - he would know it is an 8 bit wonder ...
BUT - as I said before - I thought something was up with that - he had a real grudge with the McKinnons, Prewett's (hello Molly) and Bones family ... just look for the references of deaths in the books ... :p

I just want to be optimistic and believe DD's theory that Tom will keep number at 7, and Tom doesnt know about the Ring destroyed, and Locket stolen.
All these taken in account, one thing bothers me a lot.
If Voldemort found out what DD and Harry were upto, would he create more Horcruxes?
I dont think he will just sit and say that he wants to keep his number and not replace any more.
I just think that only pure luck can save Harry now. Finding all the horcruxes and destroying them without letting Voldemort know is almost a fool's hope, now that DD is gone.
But that is kind of off topic here.
What I want to say is, there should be a hard cap at how many horcruxes you can create. Or maybe after losing your life once, you can come back but cant create anymore horcuxes.
If one just went on a frenzy to create horcruxes, or kept creating one, you cant destroy them, can you?
some how keeping magic number 7 doesnt look very lucrative when you find out that 4 or 5 of them are no more.

[peanutgal1]

..but think about that for a sec - how safe would the horcrux be ... I mean it was right under Dumbledore's nose - I can imagine Voldemort giggling with that thought each time Dumbledore annoys him - 'heck ok, he is more powerful yet still, doesnt know I stuck a horcrux right under his nose!' ...

I really dont think Voldemort would have gone beyond his magic 7 - I know he lost one but isnt going to be fooled into thinking by replacing it he still has a 7 part soul - he would know it is an 8 bit wonder ...
BUT - as I said before - I thought something was up with that - he had a real grudge with the McKinnons, Prewett's (hello Molly) and Bones family ... just look for the references of deaths in the books ... :p


I recall that there was a certain smugness about Voldemort when he was in DD's office during the interview. I can't help but think that it was because he had just outsmarted DD in some way. DD was injured when he retrieved the ring and would have been impaired when he retrieved the locket. Perhaps, in the safety of Hogwarts such protective spells would not have been cast. Therefore, the magical trace could be undetectible.

If the final horcruxes cannot be found by re-reading the prior books, Harry's task would be too unwieldy. Unless of course, JKR wants to leave a final horcrux out there to revive the series years from now.

[cagedcactus]

I recall that there was a certain smugness about Voldemort when he was in DD's office during the interview. I can't help but think that it was because he had just outsmarted DD in some way. DD was injured when he retrieved the ring and would have been impaired when he retrieved the locket. Perhaps, in the safety of Hogwarts such protective spells would not have been cast. Therefore, the magical trace could be undetectible.

If the final horcruxes cannot be found by re-reading the prior books, Harry's task would be too unwieldy. Unless of course, JKR wants to leave a final horcrux out there to revive the series years from now.

I am pasting the answer here from my other post:

You see we have read and come to know about a lot of valuable artefacts through these 6 books.
Only because JKR says that you can find info on Horcruxes through these books, we cant just go on to assume any artefact we want as a Horcrux.
If we believe that one of them is horcrux, the logic and theory of creation of a Horcrux has to support that belief. Also the placements and thinking of Voldemort has to support that belief.
Chaces of a horcrux being hidden at Hogwarts are great. But chances of it being close to DD's sorroundings? Almost none. If that happened, all the hype and hopes and pride about Dumbledore being a smart and greatest wizard are down the drain. How could he not find that out even after knowing and hunting for Horcruxes? Didn't he say to Harry, that Voldemort wanted more than that DADA job? DD knew, Voldemort was exploring his im-mortal ideas there.
You can still argue about an artefact that can be carried. Fixed, and unmoved artefacts should be deducted from our possibilities here.
That award being a Horcrux is a road I can look towards.
The door handle is just down right impossible. Too many things not supporting that assumption.

by the way. You are a Brooklyn Gal alright. Dont want to give up, do you? ;)

[Alz]

OK, I'm pretty certain that as of end of book 6 - Voldemort had no idea his horcrux secret was out and in fact he had lost more than the one he knew about - because if this was the case i'm pretty sure the horcruxes would have been moved!
I'm also pretty happy with Dumbledore and Sluggy - in respect of the fact Voldemort wanted a 7 part soul - it is the most magical number. By slipping his sould to replace lost horcruxes - he would not have a 7 part soul!
I think that he achieved 7 before he was ripped from his body - and it might even account somewhat for the backfired spell - 7 being the most magical number and used in such wicked terms - but that is a discussion in another thread somewhere!

I think peanutgal1 already explained the 'Hogwarts Horcrux' in another post - I would link the killing of Myrtle at Hogwarts and sealed in a diary that was written while at Hogwarts as fitting the bill - but I will not dismiss the big point JKR made about Voldemorts motion to the wand during the meeting with Dumbledore.

I'm telling you - the horcruxes all link and while the object knowledge might not be with Harry - I think he can be made to deduce the killing or final location of a horcrux from the data in the books - that is the true map, not just knowing what they are!

[cagedcactus]

I think peanutgal1 already explained the 'Hogwarts Horcrux' in another post - I would link the killing of Myrtle at Hogwarts and sealed in a diary that was written while at Hogwarts as fitting the bill - but I will not dismiss the big point JKR made about Voldemorts motion to the wand during the meeting with Dumbledore.

I'm telling you - the horcruxes all link and while the object knowledge might not be with Harry - I think he can be made to deduce the killing or final location of a horcrux from the data in the books - that is the true map, not just knowing what they are!

If that visit of Tom was not just for the DADA job, then I would like to know why else he came? As DD said to Tom to make an open request to his true desire. DD saw Tom through and through when he met him.
Tom did advance towards his wand. But never touched it. He knew better. He knew he stood on lower grounds than DD.
Now let us concentrate on this.
Are we here to assume that Tom killed someone, carried his own ripped soul in his wand, came to Hogwarts, and placed that piece of soul in an artefact at Hogwarts (Like that gryffin), while he was just holding DD with sweet talk????
:rolleyes:
I am just not ready to sell DD that short. As DD said, being friendly with information is a different thing than being Omniscient.
I am standing firm on my side of the story here. :D
A horcrux being at Hogwarts is very possible.
A horcrux was sealed during the time Tom visited for DADA job? Nope.....
I am still open to better ideas, though.

As for your second statement? I couldnt agree any more.

[peanutgal1]

If that visit of Tom was not just for the DADA job, then I would like to know why else he came? As DD said to Tom to make an open request to his true desire. DD saw Tom through and through when he met him.
Tom did advance towards his wand. But never touched it. He knew better. He knew he stood on lower grounds than DD.
Now let us concentrate on this.
Are we here to assume that Tom killed someone, carried his own ripped soul in his wand, came to Hogwarts, and placed that piece of soul in an artefact at Hogwarts (Like that gryffin), while he was just holding DD with sweet talk????
:rolleyes:
I am just not ready to sell DD that short. As DD said, being friendly with information is a different thing than being Omniscient.
I am standing firm on my side of the story here. :D
A horcrux being at Hogwarts is very possible.
A horcrux was sealed during the time Tom visited for DADA job? Nope.....
I am still open to better ideas, though.

As for your second statement? I couldnt agree any more.

Maybe I'm not selling DD short. What's the old saying, keep your friends close and your enemies closer. I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest that DD allowed a Horcrux to be sealed in Hogwarts so that at some point, Voldemort would return. In the PS/SS, Hagrid mentions that Voldemort did not try to take over Hogwarts during his "reign." If he thinks that he fooled DD, he also believes that there is a horcrux that will always be safe--in the safest place there is.
By the way, why is Hagrid the Keeper of Keys?
The beauty of the final horcrux being at Hogwarts is that Harry said that he would not be returning in his final year. Therefore, he will be distracted from the "obvious." However, if the horcrux turns out to be the award or the door knob/knocker, Harry will have to recall his first six years at Hogwarts and all of the miniscule details he has learned. I also cannot see the final showdown anywhere but at Hogwarts.

[Pip]

Does anyone know if there is any reference to any older family memeber Amelia Bones has, in the books, whose first name might begin with an R and who Amelia may be named after (R.A.B.)??

[Pip]

hmmmm..
you know, you have a good point here. But some logic is missing.
we were never told that Horcrux has to be created at the time of murder. But here is my thinking.
- Creation of Horcrux requires that moment of Murder. Why? Because if you do such a cruel and horrible act, your soul rips at that moment. That moment is the one when you can catch that ripped soul and store it in a vessel. So yes, you would have to create the Horcrux at the time of murder and not long after it. Because if you wait, that feeling, that moment, and that ripped soul is gone.
- Your wand shows what spells you cast. Your wand also may have soul fragments of the people you killed, like Voldy had. But your Wand does not store that split soul of yours when you murder someone. So waiting will lose your ripped soul.
- Voldemort would want his hard work stored at a place with lot of protection over it, like that cave. His own protection, not others. Voldemort might be arrogant and selfish, but had his own fears. He always was scared of DD. He would not leave a horcrux unguarded at the door of such a powerful Wizard.
That griffin is an excellent choice. But location of it prevents me from thinking of it as a horcrux. But then again, I have been proved wrong before by JKR, so you never know. :D


Completely agree with everything you said here, apart from one thing. I thought that when (in potterverse) you commit murder you rip your own soul (as Slughorn divulges) . I am interested to know why you think that a murder also rips the victims soul aswell (if LV wand has fragments of other peoples souls in) i.e. the victim has not committed a supreme act of evil, so why should they suffer the misery of having their soul torn apart? While you talk about the 'souls' that came out of LV's wand during priori incantatem in the graveyard, I thought that these reverse spell effects were merely reverse echoes/recordings of spells the wand have performed, not actual fragments of them?

[cagedcactus]

Completely agree with everything you said here, apart from one thing. I thought that when (in potterverse) you commit murder you rip your own soul (as Slughorn divulges) . I am interested to know why you think that a murder also rips the victims soul aswell (if LV wand has fragments of other peoples souls in) i.e. the victim has not committed a supreme act of evil, so why should they suffer the misery of having their soul torn apart? While you talk about the 'souls' that came out of LV's wand during priori incantatem in the graveyard, I thought that these reverse spell effects were merely reverse echoes/recordings of spells the wand have performed, not actual fragments of them?

Yes, that is exactly I wanted to say. Pardon me for my selection of poor wording.
I didnt really mean ripped souls of the victims, but the shaddows or echoes of them.

[Alz]

I want to drift this back on topic - because I think there is a certain logic that pertains to the thought process ...

It seems Huff's cup is sealed with the death of Hepzibah - the Gaunt ring with the killings of Tom's dad, the diary with maybe Myrtle????
If we take the link and try and apply it to the locket - since Riddle was the last of the Slytherin's - who could have been used to seal it?

As SPF was saying in the opener, Dumbledore was making a point of showing Harry that the vicitims he terrorised, he also stole objects from them - thus the link ...
Once again, are we looking at a map that might help Harry and us establish what and where is left ... maybe?

[SnapeLovesLily]

Now if Harry is a Horcrux then that means Voldy tried to make a Horcrux that night. I don't think he would have tried to make Harry a horcrux being in that he wanted to kill Him. If HiaH that of course was accidental, of course. He told Lily she did not have to die. He could of considered her for a horxcrux, but I doubt it. I'm willing to bet he meant to use the killing of james for a horcrux, but I'm not sure what he would have used for the vessel. And he possibally was considering to use Harry after he killed him for one, but as we all know that did not work. Now i think you have to prepare to make a horcrux before you kill. That is why horcrux are so evil b/c it takes the desire to kill to make one. I think you need the initial process, what that is i dont know, and you need a victim and a vessel to hold your soul. Voldy could have accidently made H a H because he was prepared to make one and only needed to kill harry, that backfired, and he accidenlty completed the process making H a H.

WOW that was the most difficult thing i have ever had to write. If it jumps around to much im sorry. It made sense in my head.

[cagedcactus]

Now if Harry is a Horcrux then that means Voldy tried to make a Horcrux that night. I don't think he would have tried to make Harry a horcrux being in that he wanted to kill Him. If HiaH that of course was accidental, of course. He told Lily she did not have to die. He could of considered her for a horxcrux, but I doubt it. I'm willing to bet he meant to use the killing of james for a horcrux, but I'm not sure what he would have used for the vessel. And he possibally was considering to use Harry after he killed him for one, but as we all know that did not work. Now i think you have to prepare to make a horcrux before you kill. That is why horcrux are so evil b/c it takes the desire to kill to make one. I think you need the initial process, what that is i dont know, and you need a victim and a vessel to hold your soul. Voldy could have accidently made H a H because he was prepared to make one and only needed to kill harry, that backfired, and he accidenlty completed the process making H a H.

WOW that was the most difficult thing i have ever had to write. If it jumps around to much im sorry. It made sense in my head.

Nothing is absolute right now. What you explained above, could very well be possible too.
I just feel amazed at how much we have to imagine, just to prove HIAH. JKR will have to write a 2000 + pages book to explain everything.
But I think that is what JKR wants us to do.

[Alz]

I just feel amazed at how much we have to imagine, just to prove HIAH. JKR will have to write a 2000 + pages book to explain everything.
But I think that is what JKR wants us to do.
Once again I really disagree ...
Taking your point - JKR will have to write 2000+ pages to explain how Harry ended up with some of Voldemort in him - considering we have had a few thousand already and this has never occurred.
There is a logical, easy explanation as to what occurred that night - if it is Horcrux related we know what they are, what they are used for, how many Voldemort planned, certain logical keys between killings/objects etc and of course - Dumbledore saying clear as day a living thing can also be used ...
Now tell me - how much more data would you need if she make Harry Voldemort's final horcrux?
Now - to explain how Harry ingested some of Voldemort in other ways - that will require some explanation!

[cagedcactus]

Once again I really disagree ...
Taking your point - JKR will have to write 2000+ pages to explain how Harry ended up with some of Voldemort in him - considering we have had a few thousand already and this has never occurred.
There is a logical, easy explanation as to what occurred that night - if it is Horcrux related we know what they are, what they are used for, how many Voldemort planned, certain logical keys between killings/objects etc and of course - Dumbledore saying clear as day a living thing can also be used ...
Now tell me - how much more data would you need if she make Harry Voldemort's final horcrux?
Now - to explain how Harry ingested some of Voldemort in other ways - that will require some explanation!

I love the theory regardless of the lack of information here, trust me.
So far what we have read from the stories, it could be either way. I also admit that I can not be certain and say that HINAH. I just have to wait and see what JKR throws at us. If she decides to show HIAH, then she would have to explain the entire process of what exactly happened at Godric's hollow. Not only at that fateful night, but also what he was upto when he started preparing for that attack. Plus the entire process of horcrux creation must be explained. If the order is: Attack, act of murder, spell to create the Horcrux, then HIAH is not possible. Because Voldemort didnt live to finish the process.
If the order is: Attack, spell to create horcrux, and then act of murder, then yes.
But, how unlikely that sounds? If you are fighting with someone, and planning to create that horcrux, which requires ripped soul of yours from that kill, Horcrux creation would come after the murder, not before.
All these explained properly, then yes, I will jump off the bandwagon of HINAH.
I am not saying that HIAH is downright not possible. :eek:
I just see HINAH as the logical way, right now.
And I also admit that description of all these cant make book to go 2000+ pages. It could be explained in a chapter only. I just overstated it a bit. :D

[Alz]

You are trying to apply logic and reason to a night when it seemed that just jumped right out of the window ...
AK kills with no mark, no-one has ever survived it, it cannot be blocked or diverted ... yet we have Harry with a scar and a destroyed house ... and the 'facts' Harry was attacked with AK by Voldemort ... since that cant be easily explained and goes against all we know about AK etc - then the exact science of creating a horcrux (as we are lead to believe it) could not have been performed that night ... why the heck not - the world turned upside down!
You need to also look at the contradictions that exist in the 'facts' about that night to understand anything was possible and probable ...
Voldemort was a horcrux light - he planned to make one that night - I dont think he would be aware if he did or not and that is even if HinaH ...
That night was not a good example of facts and truths - because most of what happened bucks that trend!

[cagedcactus]

Hmmm....
That night has been explained by DD. He mentioned all the things happened there to Harry. True or not? We will see.
I believe it is us readers, who want to see that night explained properly. JKR may come to us and say that, oh, but I have explained what happened that night already. Voldemort entered GH, killed James first, went to find Harry, told Lily to step aside, Killed her because she wouldnt. Then tried to kill Harry and got blasted himself because of the protection Harry had from Lily.
I absolutely agree when you say that there has to be more to the stroy than meets the eye. I also agree that the scar on Harry probably tells us different story than we have heard so far. But this is all we have from JKR. So that is why I stick to 6 Horcrux+ 1 Voldemort, and HINAH.
Debatable?
Absolutely. :D

[Alz]

As the story is told, no-one else was there that night - no-one apart from a baby Harry and a Voldemort re-birthed all those years later can shed any light ... so how could Dumbledore or anyone else be so matter of fact about the events?
Voldemort should be able to recall the best but when looked through his eyes he only saw part of the picture - killing James, talking to Lily and then killing her and then turning on Harry ... then we are all up in the air.
What I mean is, the events of what was going on in the house are somewhat removed from the story ... while I really do believe Voldemort coming was a surprise to the Potter's - given the clarity of what we do know about that night - I think someone else knows and logically saw ...
Does that make sense?

I still believe a horcrux was sealed that night - I am open to the idea it might have even been Lily ... but one way or another I think one was sealed.
This then fits in with the thread opener - that the death, object and concealed location all fit - if Harry or Lily are/were a horcrux - it would fit the model perfectly!