Recipe for a good Horcrux

[Alz]

We are told by Dumbledore that Voldemort resolved to create Horcruxes from special kills, using special objects to conceal the ripped soul part. I would like to add to this the premise that the location of the concealed Horcrux is also important and I think clues can be gained from this given past experiences ...
I wonder if the ring was a big clue on Voldemort's mindset on Horcruxes?

The ring was sealed with the death of his father - using a ring that belonged to his mothers Magical family and concealed in their broken down house.

Apply that to the diary - the diary could have belonged to a student, was stolen by Riddle and hidden in Hogwarts - question is what death did he seal it with?
I would love to say Myrtle because it would fit so nicely into what I was trying to say - but alas he didn't kill her - the basilisk did ... and of course the diary found it's way into there by luck and circumstance.

All the same, I think there is various elements that were working in Voldemort's mind, the death, the object and the location of concealment ...
That was what was important to him rather than just a random killing spree, sealing nearly ideal objects and stashing them anywhere.
We know that he saw himself as a near on God - to be infamous and the most powerful - he resolved to make his Horcruxes based on the fact he saw his own soul as being his most important commodity - a contradiction considering he decimated and destroyed his soul but he was trying to achieve immortality.

I wonder if there are clues to be found in this - looking at the diary, the ring and also the locket - there is some foundations forming that suggest when he created a horcrux - the three elements of the kill, the object and the location of concealment are all just as equally important to his mindset.

Ring - Dad's Death - concealed in Gaunt ruins
Diary - ?????? - Given to Lucius
Locket - ?????? - concealed in cave he terrorised the orphans
Hufflepuff cup - Hephzibah (descendant of Hufflepuff) - ??????

You can see from the ring and the cup that there is some linking between object and death - and in the rings case location of concealment ...

Thoughts all??

[Sirius Potter Fan]

Good one Alz!
My first thought here is that there HAS to be one hidden right inside Hogwarts somewhere. The chamber comes to mind first, but then seems a bit too obvious. Hogwarts was a very significant place for him. I don't have my book handy, but I remember DD said to Harry, that the closest Voldemort came to Love, was his affection for Hogwarts. Depending on how quickly he made the first Horcruxes, and based on his appearance changes, most were made early on. He was already working at B&B when he killed Hephzibah and stole the cup, so . . . could his interview with DD to get a job teaching have only been a ruse to gain admitance to Hogwarts to hide the cup there . . . perhaps in the chamber? I think Hogwarts would have been seen as a very safe place for him to hide one, since it already has so many protective spells in place to keep people out.

Another possible hiding place could be the orphanage.

Although he used the Riddle house for a while, I doubt that he had any great affection for it, and most likely wouldn't have wanted to be in the same place with one of his horcruxes.

[SnarkologyMajor]

Agree-there just has to be at least one in Hogwarts, the ROR is good possiblity in addition to the COS. Since I believe one will be hidden in another time (what better way to hide something:D )-both rooms have a connection to time. My guess is that the basilisk itself was hidden in time(or a place between/limbo) and that the mouth of Salazar's statue was just such a portal, I'm not sure Voldemort would use it twice. The ROR though is extremely likely, if Time and Space matter in magic-we have already been shown that Space in the ROR is flexible. I've always wondered what would happen if you asked the room to become Hogwarts 1,000 yrs. ago;).
I do think that everything that Voldemort does has some important significance-to him. The problem w/trying to work out his mindset is-he's a psychopath!:D This makes it extremely difficult to try and understand which object would go w/which murder and place doesn't it? In Voldemort's mind-would he think the shopkeeper of the store he bought the diary from is worthy of a horcrux murder? Probably not, but then again this is a logical perspective and Voldemort's logic is twisted. You would think that Dumbledore's murder would be high on his priority list for horcrux creation, how many times has he attempted? Have to think on this...feels like I'm missing something obvious here:confused:

[Sirius Potter Fan]

You would think that Dumbledore (http://www.thefinalhorcrux.com/forum/showthread.php?p=26239#)'s murder would be high on his priority list for horcrux creation
I don't know about that one, since Dumbledore was the only wizard Voldemort ever feared, I don't think he would consider taking the risk confronting DD for a Horcrux.

On the other hand, I like the idea with the RoR, of course way too many possibilities to consider with that one; the imagination runs wild!

I don't know about a Horcrux being hidden in another time though, because it would'nt stay there. If I went back a thousand years in time and hid something in a cave, providing it wasn't found by someone, or destroyed in a natural disaster, it would still be there in present time, so taking something back in time would be of no advantage. If hidden in the future, it wouldn't exist in present time, and therefore would not be of any help to Voldemort if it were the last remaining Horcrux when Voldemort was attacked.

[Alz]

I suppose the premise I was aiming for was that the death, the object and the concealment were all linked together in each Horcrux made ...
The reason I like this is because it will establish rhyme and reason and allow Harry to embark on his course with more deliberation!
If he could find links between what Voldemort did in the past he could use the little clues he got from Dumbledore/Pensive moments and take those small clues and make links that allow Harry to more readily identify and thus destroy the horcruxes.
While Voldemort was a psychopath - we could all see quite clearly method in his madness as far as sealing his soul and I think Dumbledore went to great lengths to show that there was an element of planning in it all - not just random acts of violence that lead to random items being used, and finally concealed in random places - this was well thought out by Voldemort - we just have to look at the ring and necklace to see methodology in his approach!

[Seeker615]

I think the ROR will come into play as far as Voldy's horcrux is concerned. I remember from HBP that Harry went to hide that potions book and it looked like a lot of stuff was hidden in there. (For some reason I keep seeing that tiara. Ravenclaws perhaps?)

Could a horcux be hidden among that stuff? Will Harry go back for that book and stumble upon a horcux?

As for connections do you think if voldy succeeded he wouild have hidden that horcrux among the ruin of Godrics Hollow?

[Alz]

Actually the ROR is a good thought - I feel sure that somewhere in the depths of Hogwarts there is a horcrux - it would fit the model of a good, strong, safe place to hide one's horcrux - with the added twist it would add insult to injury for Dumbledore and co - sitting on top of a Horcrux in effect keeping it safe!
The diary wasn't destine to go there - that was all Lucius - so it is plausible that Voldemort stored one in the place he had the most fondest memories!
BTW - sat here for like 15 minutes trying to work out what ROR meant to start with :o

[Seeker615]

Sorry about that!

I tend to abreviate a lot.

DD=Dumbledore
ROR- room of requirement.

[Alz]

NP's - I guess I am just slow sometimes :o

OK, flipping back to subject matter somewhat - let's look at the cup - it would seem consistent given Hephzibah's dependency of Hufflepuff and the cup was Helga's - that we might have a match there ... does that mean that perhaps the cup is concealed in or around her house or maybe one of the Bone's - they seem to have an unfortunate past with Voldemort and killings - just a thought?

Thoughts on if I am way off the mark or perhaps the task isn't that great for Harry - he just needs to backtrack the clues and look for the definite links between the death, horcrux and concealed place?

[Nema]

I think the triumverate of person/thing/place is a very interesting and plausible interpretation of Voldemort's methods.

One might see it as Tom Riddle packaging off different aspects of his life, as it were. Certainly in the case of the locket and the ring the 'what' is very much linked to the 'where'.

The ring's significance lay in its having been in the Gaunt family for generations. Voldemort takes it, kills his muggle father, and buries it in the ruins of the home of his wizarding family, long fallen from grace. That whole thing forms a fiercely symbollic closed system. He is simultaneously cutting off the unworthiness of his ancestry, while tying himself to it by hiding part of himself in this longlived artefact, buried in the ruins of the house. The horcrux and the hiding place fit with Voldemort's probable sentiments about his genealogy.

That the locket would be hidden in the place where he tortured the other orphans also fits. What better relic to tie to the place where he first felt his own domination over inferior muggles than one which connects him to the notoriously blood-proud Salazar Slytherin himself?

The diary is a little more difficult, but can't you just see in it much of Voldemort's feelings towards other people? He wants his greatness to be known, and lauded by people, but at the same time must be sure of his control over them. The diary embodied that - it's a singularly unassuming artefact, but designed to ensnare. It inspires confidence, wows people with the brilliance of the charm Riddle put on it, while all the time angling to control and dominate. Given that, where better to leave it than with one of his most sycophantic followers?

I hadn't thought before about how intimately the place of hiding is linked to the nature of the particular horcrux, but thinking about it it does seem to me that you're quite right; it's not arbitrary.

Unfortunately, without knowing what the other horcruxes are precisely, it's difficult to construct Voldemort's story around them. I too would bet vital organs that one is in Hogwarts, and is connected with Voldemort's feelings for the place. Perhaps it would be tied up with Voldemort's sense of belonging (or, perhaps it's something more like ownership in his case.) Being wildly speculative, if Seeker615 is right with the tiara hunch, a crown of Ravenclaw's would be very appropriate, wouldn't it? It would be a sort of snide declaration of his divine right of authority over the place.

[Alz]

This is a secondary consideration in all of this - Harry has to be aware of either the location or the possible object already from what he has witnessed over the years - because the task of tracking down Voldemort's horcruxes would become a life's labour - this is where I think this all converges - that Harry will have in his mind, maybe not obvious just yet but still locked up in there the pieces of the puzzle - he has to have that otherwise the hunt would be too implausible ...
By Having Voldemort use a pattern or method in his madness - he will expose the rationale when he made and concealed the horuxes and gives Harry all the chance in the world of finding them ...

I'm pretty sure that with each single horcrux - Harry already has one piece of information on each of them in his mind - be it the killing that was used, the object that was sealed or indeed the final concealed place ... he will just need to put the pieces together and then it will become a map!

[AMRMedic]

On the Horcruxes. We know of 3 for sure. The diary, the one Dumbledore found, and the one inside Voldemort now. The fourth that was previously found is the key. Harry needs to find RAB. I think when he does he may find the answers to the remaining Horcruxes. Maybe RAB has already found the others or knows of them. But also remember that RAB had to have an accomplice in obtaining the necklace.

I know that the argument of whether Harry is a horcrux or now has been waged on this board. But, remember that in order to create a Horcrux, Voldemort first had to kill in order to split his soul then cast an incantation in order to create a Horcrux. When he tried to kill Harry, he disappeared. Now, did he have time to make Harry a Horcrux? Maybe. When he killed his mother it tore his soul and then he made Harry a Horcrux. That is why he disappeared. He souls was too torn apart. Far fetched.

He wanted to kill Harry right then and there. It backfired. So, it doe not make any sense that Harry is a Horcrux.

[Alz]

OK, you have to remember what a horcrux does - it keeps the portion of soul inside you alive as long as one of the horcruxes remains earthbound and safe ... to this ends the horcrux did it's job - it sustained the fragment of soul that was inside Voldemort but was ripped from his body - nothing saying the horcrux will keep the physical form safe when under mortal peril ... while he wasn't happy he was left a spiritual existence - he was happy he was still alive - ergo the horcrux did exactly what it says on the tin - kept him alive ...
The other part of that question belongs either in the Harry is a Horcrux thread or the Harry cant be a Horcrux thread ...

I'm not opposed to the idea RAB might have sought out other horcruxes but I think the inferred timeframe suggest he was killed shortly after he discovered a horcrux - who knows he might have found others and indeed the necklace was the last one - I think it is more exciting to believe that once Harry works out who RAB was - where that horcrux now resides - he will get a clue to the location of the remaining ones ... and his task of destroying the last horcruxes wont be as mammoth as it first seems ...

Drifting back on-topic - what I was trying to suggest in this thread was that three elements exist in Voldemort's mind when it came to sealing a horcrux - thing is, if that is the case we can use that logic to try and isolate the remaining horcruxes or at the very least perhaps Harry will understand the method in Voldemort's madness and it will allow him more clarity on where to find the horcruxes?
I propose that when Voldemort made a horcrux there was three sides to the horcrux - the death, the object and the location of concealment - what I was trying to establish from the data we have is are they always linked together - does it show more cleverness than a random killing, choice object and an abandonment of Voldemort most precious commodity - himself!

[drummerx357]

I know that whether or not Harry is a horcrux is a debate for another place, but it would fit two of the three criteria if Voldemort were indeed trying to create a horcrux the night he killed Lilly and James (regardless of whether Harry was the object intended to become a horcrux. I don't personally think he was, but again, that's a different discussion).
Godric's Hollow would fit the location requirement (assuming it does indeed have somthing to do Gryffindor), and secondly, what more significant death could there be than that of the boy who was destined to either kill him or be killed by him?
In terms of the object, I can't say what he was trying to make a horcrux, but it seems that Dumbledore was correct in that Voldemort was indeed trying to make a horcrux that fatefull night.

[Alz]

It was something that didn't go unnoticed by me as well drummerx357 - the fact that if HiaH - he would fit that model of the death, the object and the location of concealment being the perfect recipe for Voldemort's horcruxes.

While we all know that Voldemort is barking mad in some respects - he isn't stupid overall - as such I really like the idea that his take on Horcruxes followed planning and method rather than all out murder and seal!
We did cover in another thread if he had to restrict his killing once he started to make Horcruxes, I also like that idea as well because it would seem more calculated and controlled - after all Voldemort does seem to be a sucker for organisation - after all he didn't attack the Potters till he felt he was 'earth bound' enough with his horcruxes to give it a bash!

[mukie182]

Everyone seems really set on Harry being a horcrux. But here's a random idea I had: Snape is the horcrux. Not only that but he's a double horcrux. Both for Voldemort and Dumbledore. That would explain why they both trust him so completely despite knowing he's in touch with the other. It makes him the perfect double agent and gives him the perfect cover.

I'm pretty sure he has been a horcrux for Voldemort all along and that's why Voldemort has trusted him unflinchingly, even when there was evidence that he was working closely with Dumbledore and the Order of the Phoenix. But I suspect he is still working for Dumbledore... the cover becomes even more perfect when Snape kills Dumbledore (perhaps at Dumbledore's own request -- note the discussions Dumbledore had with Snape earlier in book 6 in which Snape seemed upset and unhappy). Why else would he not have Harry killed on the spot? Why else would Dumbledore freeze Harry, but to stop him from intervening? It would also mean that Dumbledore could pull a Gandalf, and come back in book 7.

It also makes sense why Voldemort would want to believe so much that Snape was on his side... he wouldn't kill him, because a part of his soul is entrusted to him.

I know this means that Dumbledore would have had to murder someone or perform a soul-wrenching event or whatever. But might that be a fair price to pay to ensure he'd be around destroy Voldemort?

[Alz]

OK - JKR recently made it very clear Dumbledore is dead ... please, please, please can those that still harbour thoughts otherwise take the hint from JKR, I cant believe she would lie to everyone on this!

Snape as a horcrux - no way!
Voldemort put a piece of himself into one of his servants - NO WAY!
Don't get me wrong, I like the thoughts but I really cant see it in my mind.

I would like to get this back on topic thou - I was looking to discuss if perhaps the three parts that go into making a Horcrux could be linked and thus by knowing enough about Voldemort you can find the initial links that put the killing, the object and the final resting place of the object in context with each other.

[rons_gurl]

I think the snape as a horcrux thing is quite clever but not for voldemort for dumbledore,

Thn again..... Dumbledore a murderer???????

I think not .......


JK could indeed bring dumbledore back she has lied beofre on numoerous occasions...


Anyhoo back to the subject, Im not quite sure on the link, i mean there has to be one, but i'm not sure there is one in what you pointed out.


Maybe Voldemort has mixed up his horcruxes, as in the horcrux he would have made the night harry was going to be killed would have been placed in Hepzibahs house. And the horcrux made by Hepzibahs murder was placed in the cave and so on....

It is a bit farfetched but as omebody suggested earlier when all horcruxes are found you will have the map... suggestions???

I really do not think there is a horcrux in Hogwarts.


Too Obvious,







Voldemort may have strong feelings for the place but im not convinced...

[Alz]

OK, so the suggestion goes like this ...

If you have a link between all three components that contributed towards the horcrux, that if you discover a single component, you can start to figure out the other 2 parts ... bit like this ...

Ring - Dad's Death - concealed in Gaunt ruins
Hufflepuff cup - Hephzibah (descendant of Hufflepuff) - ??????

It's like a puzzle - Harry has had a great deal of information from Dumbledore and also has links towards the locket - I just figure they all follow a pattern - as such once you work out step one, maybe guess step 2 - you will see a link that will help you get to step three ...
It would act like a map - a way - a rhyme and reason for Harry to follow and make the task of tracking horcruxes that much easier ...

[peanutgal1]

I agree that there is a horcrux in Hogwarts. In Book 6 DD wonders why Voldemort has come for a job interview for a position DD will never give him. We are also told about a wand movement by Voldemort. In Book 5, JKR takes two sentences to tell us that the door knob to DD's office is a griffin. GRIFFENDOOR. Get it?

[Alz]

LOL - I like that link- sick almost but imagine if JKR pulled that one off!
I also picked up on that movement of the wand and I also wonder if Voldemort was taking a stab at sealing a Horcrux in what is prolly the safest place in the world - Dumbledore's office in Hogwarts!
And think of the smugness value - all the time Dumbledore tries to hunt them horcruxes and kill Voldemort and one of them is under his nose this whole time!
Wicked but fantastic no?
Almost like RAB being Dumbledore and him writing that note - it is just so mocking!

[peanutgal1]

Alright, I know that you were not a full subscriber to the doorknob theory. So I thought some more. In CoS, Ron is given detention and has to polish the awards in the trophy room. He mentions that he had a slug attack all over an award for special services to the school. I'm pretty sure that Tom Riddle won this award. I cannot depart from the belief that there is a horcrux in Hogwarts. We've all been looking for a horcrux related to the founding members. However, isn't it equally possible that Voldemort would have wanted to make a horcrux from something that belonged to him? Given his life prior to Hogwarts, he would have had precious little. Any thoughts?

[Alz]

Given the premise of the recipe - then I totally agree with you!
Hogwarts represented something that was very special to Riddle - like Harry it was a place he grew and became home - I am almost as certain there is one there but just see the irony of it being in Dumbledore's study and was created with that motion to the wand JKR made such a big thing of pointing out ...
It sounds out there I know but I just wonder how else he would have created and stored a horcrux there ... I mean the diary only turned up in the CoS by circumstance right?

[cagedcactus]

Given the premise of the recipe - then I totally agree with you!
Hogwarts represented something that was very special to Riddle - like Harry it was a place he grew and became home - I am almost as certain there is one there but just see the irony of it being in Dumbledore's study and was created with that motion to the wand JKR made such a big thing of pointing out ...
It sounds out there I know but I just wonder how else he would have created and stored a horcrux there ... I mean the diary only turned up in the CoS by circumstance right?

Yeah, I am thinking along the same lines.
You see we have read and come to know about a lot of valuable artefacts through these 6 books.
Only because JKR says that you can find info on Horcruxes through these books, we cant just go on to assume any artefact we want as a Horcrux.
If we believe that one of them is horcrux, the logic and theory of creation of a Horcrux has to support that belief. Also the placements and thinking of Voldemort has to support that belief.
Chaces of a horcrux being hidden at Hogwarts are great. But chances of it being close to DD's sorroundings? Almost none. If that happened, all the hype and hopes and pride about Dumbledore being a smart and greatest wizard are down the drain. How could he not find that out even after knowing and hunting for Horcruxes? Didn't he say to Harry, that Voldemort wanted more than that DADA job? DD knew, Voldemort was exploring his im-mortal ideas there.
You can still argue about an artefact that can be carried. Fixed, and unmoved artefacts should be deducted from our possibilities here.
That award being a Horcrux is a road I can look towards.
The door handle is just down right impossible. Too many things not supporting that assumption.

[peanutgal1]

We are told by Dumbledore that Voldemort resolved to create Horcruxes from special kills, using special objects to conceal the ripped soul part. I would like to add to this the premise that the location of the concealed Horcrux is also important and I think clues can be gained from this given past experiences ...
I wonder if the ring was a big clue on Voldemort's mindset on Horcruxes?

The ring was sealed with the death of his father - using a ring that belonged to his mothers Magical family and concealed in their broken down house.

Apply that to the diary - the diary could have belonged to a student, was stolen by Riddle and hidden in Hogwarts - question is what death did he seal it with?
I would love to say Myrtle because it would fit so nicely into what I was trying to say - but alas he didn't kill her - the basilisk did ... and of course the diary found it's way into there by luck and circumstance.

All the same, I think there is various elements that were working in Voldemort's mind, the death, the object and the location of concealment ...
That was what was important to him rather than just a random killing spree, sealing nearly ideal objects and stashing them anywhere.
We know that he saw himself as a near on God - to be infamous and the most powerful - he resolved to make his Horcruxes based on the fact he saw his own soul as being his most important commodity - a contradiction considering he decimated and destroyed his soul but he was trying to achieve immortality.

I wonder if there are clues to be found in this - looking at the diary, the ring and also the locket - there is some foundations forming that suggest when he created a horcrux - the three elements of the kill, the object and the location of concealment are all just as equally important to his mindset.

Ring - Dad's Death - concealed in Gaunt ruins
Diary - ?????? - Given to Lucius
Locket - ?????? - concealed in cave he terrorised the orphans
Hufflepuff cup - Hephzibah (descendant of Hufflepuff) - ??????

You can see from the ring and the cup that there is some linking between object and death - and in the rings case location of concealment ...

Thoughts all??


On the issue of the basilisk having killed moaning Myrtle, when Myrtle describes her death in CoS, she says that she heard "funny" speech and came out of the stall because she heard a boy. I think that Riddle was telling the basilisk to kill. If the basilisk was used as a weapon by Riddle, it is safe to say that Riddle killed Myrtle.
As Riddle had not yet won the award, if the award is a horcrux, it is unlikely that the award was made into a horcrux following Myrtle's death. However, the diary could have been made from Myrtle's death.
Any thoughts?

[cagedcactus]

On the issue of the basilisk having killed moaning Myrtle, when Myrtle describes her death in CoS, she says that she heard "funny" speech and came out of the stall because she heard a boy. I think that Riddle was telling the basilisk to kill. If the basilisk was used as a weapon by Riddle, it is safe to say that Riddle killed Myrtle.
As Riddle had not yet won the award, if the award is a horcrux, it is unlikely that the award was made into a horcrux following Myrtle's death. However, the diary could have been made from Myrtle's death.
Any thoughts?


Riddle did not know the spell to create horcruxes then. He learned that after graduating from Hogwarts.

[Alz]

Riddle did not know the spell to create horcruxes then. He learned that after graduating from Hogwarts.
Umm - that is contentious - Riddle asked Sluggy about horcruxes while at Hogwarts - so he was onto it while still a student ...
Not sure but get the feeling he already knew how to create horcruxes when he spoke to Sluggy - he was looking for information on creating multiple!

I think peanutgal1 might be right - Myrtle might have been the fuel of the diary horcrux - that would almost fit the pattern and by circumstance it does the full circle - a killing at Hogwarts, that lead to a student death being sealed in a diary he wrote while at Hogwarts ... yeah we might have the 'Hogwarts' horcrux ... it fits the pattern in my eyes!

[cagedcactus]

Umm - that is contentious - Riddle asked Sluggy about horcruxes while at Hogwarts - so he was onto it while still a student ...
Not sure but get the feeling he already knew how to create horcruxes when he spoke to Sluggy - he was looking for information on creating multiple!

I think peanutgal1 might be right - Myrtle might have been the fuel of the diary horcrux - that would almost fit the pattern and by circumstance it does the full circle - a killing at Hogwarts, that lead to a student death being sealed in a diary he wrote while at Hogwarts ... yeah we might have the 'Hogwarts' horcrux ... it fits the pattern in my eyes!

Hmmmm......
That I have to admit. She could be right on that one.
The only reason I was doubtful, was his appearance remained same. His appearance wasnt changed before he left hogwarts.
Myrtle was simply hiding in that cubicle without being known to Tom. Tom opened that chamber and basilisk appeared. Myrtle saw basilisk's eyes, and died.
Now, was Tom prepared for a Horcrux creation that night?
He had the diary, but the death of the person was not significant to himself. And if we think logically, it was more an accident than an act of murder.
Myrtle was nothing to Tom, other than a removed minor bump.

[peanutgal1]

Hmmmm......
That I have to admit. She could be right on that one.
The only reason I was doubtful, was his appearance remained same. His appearance wasnt changed before he left hogwarts.
Myrtle was simply hiding in that cubicle without being known to Tom. Tom opened that chamber and basilisk appeared. Myrtle saw basilisk's eyes, and died.
Now, was Tom prepared for a Horcrux creation that night?
He had the diary, but the death of the person was not significant to himself. And if we think logically, it was more an accident than an act of murder.
Myrtle was nothing to Tom, other than a removed minor bump.


Myrtle was a muggle. That suited Voldemort's purpose at the time. Perhaps it was not until he was older that he decided to seal the horcruxes with significant deaths.

[Pip]

I thought you had to commit murder to create a horcrux, doesn't that mean that LV would not have torn his soul when Myrtle died as it was the Basilisk that killed her i.e another living creature?

[cagedcactus]

Myrtle was a muggle. That suited Voldemort's purpose at the time. Perhaps it was not until he was older that he decided to seal the horcruxes with significant deaths.
Myrtle was not a muggle. Myrtle was a student at Hogwarts. How can she be a muggle? And again, as I have said before. We need indicators and proofs to what story is leading to. Beliefs and imaginations are great, but not enough.


I thought you had to commit murder to create a horcrux, doesn't that mean that LV would not have torn his soul when Myrtle died as it was the Basilisk that killed her???
That was my thought in another thread too. I dont think that Myrtle's death sealed any Horcruxes. I can be wrong here, but it was not an act of murder on Tom's part.

[Pip]

That was my thought in another thread too. I dont think that Myrtle's death sealed any Horcruxes. I can be wrong here, but it was not an act of murder on Tom's part.


Totally agree with you there. LV may have instructed the snake e.g quotes from LV in CoS about the Basilisk: 'It wont come until its called' and to the Basilisk: 'Kill him!' (i.e it obeyed him) but it was the the Basilisk that actually committed the act with its own unique magical power (i.e deadly eyes). If inanimate objects were used e.g if LV bludgeoned Myrtle round the head with a sink, that might be different. But this is in a magical world, so you would have thought that magic is needed to split the soul. I am reluctant to accept LV's soul split during the death of Myrtle, he may have been the instigator, but he was not the perpatrator.

Think of it another way. LV and a D/E eater go out on a day trip for a spot of muggle torture, and LV instructs the D/E to kill the first muggle they come across. A muggle strays into their path, the D/E obeys LV instructions, pulls out their wand and bellows 'Avada Kedrava!' at the muggle who instantly drops dead (i.e the D/E uses their own magical power under LV's instructions). Which soul would be torn in this case??

I hope everyone concludes that it would be the D/E's !!

[peanutgal1]

Myrtle was a muggle. That suited Voldemort's purpose at the time. Perhaps it was not until he was older that he decided to seal the horcruxes with significant deaths.


I meant muggle-born.

[cagedcactus]

Think of it another way. LV and a D/E eater go out on a day trip for a spot of muggle torture, and LV instructs the D/E to kill the first muggle they come across. A muggle strays into their path, the D/E obeys LV instructions, pulls out their wand and bellows 'Avada Kedrava!' at the muggle who instantly drops dead (i.e the D/E uses their own magical power under LV's instructions). Which soul would be torn in this case??

I hope everyone concludes that it would be the D/E's !!

Bingo!!!
you stole my words. :D

[cagedcactus]

I meant muggle-born.
I thought so too. :D
Your idea about myrtle's death screaming relation to that diary horcrux is excellent.
My most of the buddies thought so too.
My only arguement against it is, as I agreed above with PIP.
JKR says that you have to cause death (act of murder, not just order or witness it) in order to make horcrux.
Voldemort called basilisk, which caused death of Myrtle, because she saw its eyes. Did that qualify a murder? hmmmmm...
debatable huh?

[peanutgal1]

I thought so too. :D
Your idea about myrtle's death screaming relation to that diary horcrux is excellent.
My most of the buddies thought so too.
My only arguement against it is, as I agreed above with PIP.
JKR says that you have to cause death (act of murder, not just order or witness it) in order to make horcrux.
Voldemort called basilisk, which caused death of Myrtle, because she saw its eyes. Did that qualify a murder? hmmmmm...
debatable huh?


I respect PIP's point regarding animate versus inanimate objects as the tool for the kill. However, the basilisk was under the sole command of LV. Unlike your average DE, the basilisk did not go out on its own volition and kill. It only came when it was called. It only obeyed the commands of LV. That appears more like a weapon, i.e. inanimate object. If LV set loose a group of giants on a crowd of muggles, I would not categorize that as a murder sufficient to make a horcrux.

[peanutgal1]

Totally agree with you there. LV may have instructed the snake e.g quotes from LV in CoS about the Basilisk: 'It wont come until its called' and to the Basilisk: 'Kill him!' (i.e it obeyed him) but it was the the Basilisk that actually committed the act with its own unique magical power (i.e deadly eyes). If inanimate objects were used e.g if LV bludgeoned Myrtle round the head with a sink, that might be different. But this is in a magical world, so you would have thought that magic is needed to split the soul. I am reluctant to accept LV's soul split during the death of Myrtle, he may have been the instigator, but he was not the perpatrator.

Think of it another way. LV and a D/E eater go out on a day trip for a spot of muggle torture, and LV instructs the D/E to kill the first muggle they come across. A muggle strays into their path, the D/E obeys LV instructions, pulls out their wand and bellows 'Avada Kedrava!' at the muggle who instantly drops dead (i.e the D/E uses their own magical power under LV's instructions). Which soul would be torn in this case??

I hope everyone concludes that it would be the D/E's !!


PIP-being an animal lover, my tendency would be to say that the basilisk could be compared to a DE in intelligence. However, we know that's not correct. The basilisk was in the castle for hundreds of years and did not disturb any of the students. It was only when called by LV that it made a move. DD said that it is our choices that make us what we truly are rather than our abilities. While the basilisk had the magical ability to kill with its venom and eyes, it did not choose to do so. It was not until it was ordered by LV that it killed Myrtle. That sounds like a weapon to me.

[cagedcactus]

PIP-being an animal lover, my tendency would be to say that the basilisk could be compared to a DE in intelligence. However, we know that's not correct. The basilisk was in the castle for hundreds of years and did not disturb any of the students. It was only when called by LV that it made a move. DD said that it is our choices that make us what we truly are rather than our abilities. While the basilisk had the magical ability to kill with its venom and eyes, it did not choose to do so. It was not until it was ordered by LV that it killed Myrtle. That sounds like a weapon to me.

That is a good point. a very good point.
Now only if we can find out if Voldemort even knew that Myrtle was hiding in that cubicle? Was he even ready to make that horcrux?
Because if he was, that was most certainly his first horcrux.

[Pip]

PIP-being an animal lover, my tendency would be to say that the basilisk could be compared to a DE in intelligence. However, we know that's not correct. The basilisk was in the castle for hundreds of years and did not disturb any of the students. It was only when called by LV that it made a move. DD said that it is our choices that make us what we truly are rather than our abilities. While the basilisk had the magical ability to kill with its venom and eyes, it did not choose to do so. It was not until it was ordered by LV that it killed Myrtle. That sounds like a weapon to me.



The Basilisk did not choose to attack people for hundreds of years, it couldn't!!! The Basilisk was hidden in the Chamber of Secrets for hundreds of years from which it COULD NOT ESCAPE untill it was let out by LV, so did not have free roam of the school to attack students. JKR describes the Basilisk as a 'fearsome beast' (read the paragraph Herminone took from a book in CoS),I am pretty sure it would have attacked without instruction if at had had the oppurtunity to do so.


Quotes from the Basilisk in CoS clearly show that IT is desperate to kill when it has been let out by Ginny (possessed);

'let ME rip you...let ME tear you....let ME kill you'

'so hungry for so long (i.e unable to attack anyone with the CoS being closed for ages)....time to kill'

i.e it is thinking for ITSELF.

You could call it a weapon, but only beacuse LV utilised the fact that IT could kill people and it obeyed his orders. LV doesnt have to force the snake to do anything he justs gives it the OPPORTUNITY to kill. Voldemort/Ginny didnt have to wield the snake and pull a trigger on its body to unleash its deadly eyes, it used them ITSELF. Just because the snake chose to obey LV instructions, does not detract from the fact that IT killed Myrtle with its own unique powers, not LV. It just means it had an evil nature aswell ('fearsome beast') and tried to kill when ever it had the chance. If you read the part in CoS when Myrtle tells Harry and Ron how she died, it sounds like a complete accident anyway.

There is nothing in CoS to suggest that the Basilisk was possesed by LV at anytime, which would be different.

I respect PIP's point regarding animate versus inanimate objects as the tool for the kill. However, the basilisk was under the sole command of LV. Unlike your average DE, the basilisk did not go out on its own volition and kill. It only came when it was called. It only obeyed the commands of LV. That appears more like a weapon, i.e. inanimate object. If LV let loose a group of giants on a crowd of muggles, I would not categorize that as a murder sufficient to make a horcrux.



There is no evidence in CoS to suggest otherwise that all LV does is 'let loose a Basilisk on muggle borns' in Hogwarts. I was also under the impression that when LV was/is active (i.e before he attacked Harry and after he regenerated) , the D/E's were/are under his sole command and 'only obeyed the commands' from him. When LV was at Hogwarts/possesed Ginny, the Basilisk only obeyed commands from him, sounds like the same thing to me. The only difference is the Basilisk could not kill when LV wasn't at Hogwarts because it was kept hidden in the CoS, although most of the D/E went into hiding when they thought he was gone...........

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one! :)

[peanutgal1]

The Basilisk did not choose to attack people for hundreds of years, it couldn't!!! The Basilisk was hidden in the Chamber of Secrets for hundreds of years from which it COULD NOT ESCAPE untill it was let out by LV, so did not have free roam of the school to attack students. JKR describes the Basilisk as a 'fearsome beast' (read the paragraph Herminone took from a book in CoS),I am pretty sure it would have attacked without instruction if at had had the oppurtunity to do so.


Quotes from the Basilisk in CoS clearly show that IT is desperate to kill when it has been let out by Ginny (possessed);

'let ME rip you...let ME tear you....let ME kill you'

'so hungry for so long (i.e unable to attack anyone with the CoS being closed for ages)....time to kill'

i.e it is thinking for ITSELF.

You could call it a weapon, but only beacuse LV utilised the fact that IT could kill people and it obeyed his orders. LV doesnt have to force the snake to do anything he justs gives it the OPPORTUNITY to kill. Voldemort/Ginny didnt have to wield the snake and pull a trigger on its body to unleash its deadly eyes, it used them ITSELF. Just because the snake chose to obey LV instructions, does not detract from the fact that IT killed Myrtle with its own unique powers, not LV. It just means it had an evil nature aswell ('fearsome beast') and tried to kill when ever it had the chance. If you read the part in CoS when Myrtle tells Harry and Ron how she died, it sounds like a complete accident anyway.

There is nothing in CoS to suggest that the Basilisk was possesed by LV at anytime, which would be different.





There is no evidence in CoS to suggest otherwise that all LV does is 'let loose a Basilisk on muggle borns' in Hogwarts. I was also under the impression that when LV was/is active (i.e before he attacked Harry and after he regenerated) , the D/E's were/are under his sole command and 'only obeyed the commands' from him. When LV was at Hogwarts/possesed Ginny, the Basilisk only obeyed commands from him, sounds like the same thing to me. The only difference is the Basilisk could not kill when LV wasn't at Hogwarts because it was kept hidden in the CoS, although most of the D/E went into hiding when they thought he was gone...........

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one! :)





Pip-I agree, we're going to have to disagree. However, let me leave you with this: the basilisk says "let me kill" as though it is asking for permission. If a gun could speak, what do you think it would say? We have to look at the information we have thus far on the basilisk. It did not come until called by the heir. It did not kill or attempt to do so, without the order of LV. All evidence points to the fact that without a command by LV, the basilisk was impotent. Therefore, I believe that it was nothing more than a weapon wielded by LV for the Myrtle kill.:confused:

[cagedcactus]

Pip-I agree, we're going to have to disagree. However, let me leave you with this: the basilisk says "let me kill" as though it is asking for permission. If a gun could speak, what do you think it would say? We have to look at the information we have thus far on the basilisk. It did not come until called by the heir. It did not kill or attempt to do so, without the order of LV. All evidence points to the fact that without a command by LV, the basilisk was impotent. Therefore, I believe that it was nothing more than a weapon wielded by LV for the Myrtle kill.:confused:

I agree with your arguement of Basilisk being used as a weapon.
But what we need to find out is, since Tom didnt even know that Myrtle was hiding in that cubicle, how can he just create a Horcrux?
He probably didnt even know that Myrtle died. And if he did, I am not ready to believe just yet, that he just jumped and created a horcrux out of it.

[peanutgal1]

I agree with your arguement of Basilisk being used as a weapon.
But what we need to find out is, since Tom didnt even know that Myrtle was hiding in that cubicle, how can he just create a Horcrux?
He probably didnt even know that Myrtle died. And if he did, I am not ready to believe just yet, that he just jumped and created a horcrux out of it.

I don't think that we have any definitive proof that Riddle didn't know that Myrtle was in the bathroom. From what we know of Myrtle, she was a bit of a cry-baby. This was probably her favorite brooding spot. She was being teased by someone, but I cannot recall who (it was a boy in the book, a girl in the movie). I think that this kill offered the perfect time to test out LV's skill at making a horcrux. He had probably learned the spell and used one of the only items that he owned, the diary. It's also the perfect cover because you can always blame it on the basilisk killing Myrtle on its own volition. Then, after he was successful, sought out Slughorn to determine whether more could be made. Remember how casual he was about the idea of killing by then.

[peanutgal1]

I agree with your arguement of Basilisk being used as a weapon.
But what we need to find out is, since Tom didnt even know that Myrtle was hiding in that cubicle, how can he just create a Horcrux?
He probably didnt even know that Myrtle died. And if he did, I am not ready to believe just yet, that he just jumped and created a horcrux out of it.


I remember that we were discussing timing elsewhere, but I couldn't find the thread, I though here would suffice. The ring was obtained after LV killed Tom Riddle, Sr. LV goes to the Gaunt house where he meets his uncle, Morfin. The ring is on Morfin's hand. Morfin tells LV where the Riddles live. After LV kills the Riddles, he returns and modifies Morfin's memory. When Morfin awakes, the ring is gone. It goes back to the argument of how soon after the kill does the horcrux need to be sealed. Remember also that during the summer when the Riddles were killed, LV was an underage wizard. Therefore, he would not have been able to perform any magic until he was back at school. Assuming that the ring was sealed with the death of Riddle, Sr., there can be some passage of time before the spell is performed. Either LV used Morfin's wand to cast the spell when he returned to the Gaunt house and stole the ring, or when he returned to school and was able to use his own wand. What do you think?

[Alz]

I got the feeling Myrtle used that bathroom as her hiding and weeping location as well!
Also have to agree that since Riddle used the basilisk as the mechanism for death - he caused and meant the death ... ergo he killed her ...
And the sounds Harry could hear ... that basilisk was possessed the same as Ginny - ergo he could hear Riddle ... Riddle was back in control like he was when Myrtle died ...