Harry, Voldemort and Occlumency

[Fortescue]

I was scanning a bit of HBP and came across this rather confusing, yet, enlightening passage.

HBP, Horace Slughorn pg. 59.
"So tell me, Harry," said Dumbledore. "Your scar . . . has it been hurting at all"

Harry raised a hand unconsciously to his forehead and rubbed the lightning-shaped mark.

"No," he said, "and I've been wondering about that. I thought it would be burning all the time now Voldemort's getting so powerful again."

He glanced up at Dumbledore and saw that he was wearing a satisfied expression.

"I, on the other hand, thought otherwise," said Dumbledore. "Lord Voldemort has finally realized the dangerous access to his thoughts and feelings you have been enjoying. It appears that he is now employing Occlumency against you."


Considering this passage, was all of Harry's prior dreams and visions about what Voldemort was up to, all of Harry's visions into Voldemort's mind actually Harry performing Legilimency?

Did Dumbledore know this all along and that is why he had Snape try to teach him Occlumency? Was what Harry was seeing into Voldemort's mind something beyond his connection with Voldemort through his scar?

[Alz]

.. that is one way of looking at it I suppose - if you want to avoid the obvious reasons he could see into Voldemort's mind - that connection that was forged the night of the attack ... dont worry stopping right there!

It's possible I suppose - unconciously performing Legilimency would be a unique a neat trick and might help explain why Harry can see into the man's mind.
I think Dumbledore's expression was telling once again there - but not for much more than what he said - but more interesting is that he 'assumed' that this was the case going back in time at some point and all Harry has done is confirm it ...
But then again we knew that back in OoTP - Dumbledore suspected the link and never really addressed it until it all went bad and once again Harry lost someone close to him ...
Makes you wonder if the dudes timing is suspect doesn't it - he seems to think these things - never discusses them and then waits till they are apparent to discuss and deal with them ... horcruxes is another good example of this ...
Now I could lean that towards another theory you hate - but I wont - I just think it is interesting given the thread ..

[Fortescue]

I think what made this pop out in my mind is the fact that after Dumbledore asked him the question, Harry said he thought it would be burning all the time now that Voldemort was getting so powerful again.

We know through Harry's Occlumency lessons with Snape that in order to read into someone's mind, you must look them in the eye. Remember Malfoy's comment to Snape when he thought Snape was trying to do Legilimency on him and he told Snape he knew what he was up to and Snape guessed that Bellatrix had taught her nephew about Occlumency.

If you have to look someone in the eye to either read their thoughts or block them, why would Dumbledore guess that Voldemort was using Occlumency on Harry? How could that be possible when they were no where near each other?

Could this scene and Dumbledore's words have something to do with something else? How could Voldemort block his mind using Occlumency on someone who was far away, even if what Harry was doing was Legilmency?

Harry has been obsessed with Voldemort and what he might be up to since he got his body back. Could that be the part of the connection, if Harry was truly performing Legilmency on Voldemort the whole time because of his obsession, and not so much the connection of the scar? But what about the eye contact?

[Alz]

See - now you have confused me - because it seems almost like you are leaning towards there was a more relevant connection forged that night ... hence the reasons he can see into Voldemort with no eye contact and Voldemort could switch Harry off once he realised Harry was getting in there as well ...
Because even by your own arguments - you are saying Occlumency & Legilmency doesn't fit the model as we are lead to understand it right now ...

.. or did I miss something - because that is also highly possible ... :o

[Fortescue]

I believe I am. We were shown in the few instances where we saw Harry and Snape practice Occlumency, and a few times that JKR alluded to Harry feeling like someone, either Snape or Dumbledore was reading his mind when they looked at him. So, what Dumbledore said in the quote makes no sense. There has to be more to what Harry was seeing then Occlumency or Legilimency. And how could Voldemort block his mind from someone who wasn't there? My take on Occlumency is that You block your mind, but you also present false memories. I would think that if their connection was the way it seems based on Dumbledore's remark, that Voldemort would still allow Harry into his mind, but bombard him with the worst thoughts and memories possible just to set Harry off his stride. Voldemort wouldn't cut off the communication all together.

Maybe it has something to do with the part of the Prophecy and the power that the Dark Lord knows not. Maybe it isn't love as we have all speculated about, but something else. Besides of Harry's connection to Voldemort with his scar, he has never shown any real extraordinary abilities as a wizard. All the things he has done he has struggled with, even the Patronus. Maybe his true power just hasn't come to the surface yet.

[Alz]

I think your observations are more than valid - either his powers are that great he can break the rules of Occlumency & Legilmency - or there is a more powerful connection at work here - and I have to say I am going with the latter ...
It is possible the power the Dark Lord knows not is tied in here although Dumbledore did seem quite sure it was love - and given all we know of Harry and the past I think I have to agree here.
I suppose more interesting - and taking away the HiaH theory - what could have happened that made Harry and Voldemort so connected, when all we are lead to believe was a backfired AK spell that nearly killed the caster?
I mean, we all know about Lily's sacrifice and the likes but it just seems so crucial that Harry got more of Voldemort that night than temporary dismissal of his biggest foe - and once again I am trying to look outside my fav thoughts on the subject and wonder what the implications could be if Harry is connected to Voldemort outside of the HiaH theory.
I also agree that Snape was correct - Harry is mediocre at best when it comes to magic - yet he masters spells and the likes many wise wizards never do ...

[marka]

Hi everyone my name is Mark, and this would be my very first posting on this site or ever. So this will parable be short. I really enjoy everyones comments it is enlightening to read. Now this is just out of the blue but something that has stuck in my mind after reading HBP. What if Voldemort inadvertently placed part of His soul into Harry along with not killing Harry and becoming something less than human. This would give Harry more in site than what souls be possible into Voldemort mind, by having part of Voldemort soul, and a good reason to kill off Harry at the end. No need for occlumency or legilimency. :eek:

[Alz]

Hi Marke - I think you need to be looking at 'Harry is a Horcrux' and 'Harry is not a Horcrux' threads - these will be inline with your thoughts there ;)
You can use the sites search engine to find them ... cheers!

[SnarkologyMajor]

Like the thoughts about the connection, I hadn't thought about Voldemort and Harry having an ability to use legilimency at a distance as much as horcruxes having a natural attraction to each other. I guess this is pretty hard to separate from HiaH, their connection is one of the major clues to support HiaH:D Since splitting your soul is against nature-hence against God-hence against physics, it seems logical that the soul would try to become whole again wouldn't it? I quess this is why my take is that Voldemort not only hides his horcruxes to protect them from harm-he also contains them from each other as their natural attraction would be detrimental to him. I agree though that Voldemort only stopping when he figures out the reason why-doesn't quite fit. You would think he would have known why Harry was getting in his head immediately wouldn't he?

[rons_gurl]

I think people are forgetting that vodemort is the most powerful wizard alive, If he can split his soul he can do A LOT.

Do you remember DD sayig Voldemort is one of the most experienced Leglimence alive Im sure he can close his mind to A sixteen year old boy if he wanted to.

Not forgetting Voldemort thinks Harry is his equal he probably banks on Harry and him having a much stronger connection than they actually do, making voldemort more determined to close his mind.

[Alz]

But as Forte said right at the start - we are lead to believe there are rules or guidelines for achieving Occlumency & Legilmency - yet Harry and Voldemort seem to buck that trend completely!
I know us HiaH fans will auto jump to this but I am keen to look at other reasons, speculate a little about other reasons that link was present since the backfired curse and why they both seem to have this default window into each others minds ..
I mean if JKR comes out tomorrow and says 'Harry is not a Horcrux' - we are still left with this enigma of how they are able to do what they do with each other!

[cagedcactus]

Do you remember DD sayig Voldemort is one of the most experienced Leglimence alive Im sure he can close his mind to A sixteen year old boy if he wanted to.

Not forgetting Voldemort thinks Harry is his equal he probably banks on Harry and him having a much stronger connection than they actually do, making voldemort more determined to close his mind.

I agree that Voldy is the most powerful legilimence alive.
I dont think he is the most powerful overall.
Because he fears death and feelings.
It was Harry's feeling for Sirius which kicked Voldemort out of his mind.
And I believe that Voldy is not going to try to look in Harry's mind any soon because of that.
Maybe feelings and love is the power that dark lord knows not.

[Alz]

Well as powerful as he is - I still dont think he can accomplish Occlumency & Legilmency remotely - I mean Dumbledore was pretty tasty when it came to magic and he never really showed signs of it ...
JKR is quite clever at setting rules when she thinks bounderies are required and I think she did this very much in the same confines - what allowes this connection trancends the Occlumency & Legilmency rules - it is something a lot deeper!

[littlehobit24]

I am wondering if it is something like what happens to some twins or mothers. That sixth sence that they seam to have because they share some physical bond. In a way Harry and Voldemort share this. Dumbledore did say that a part of Voldemort was tranfered to Harry. If that is so is it possable then that Some of who Harry is was tranfered to Voldemort. this would be like two overlaping circles. the space that is shared could be the conection of thought or soul.

[Alz]

Interesting premise there ... Harry shares part of Voldemort and Voldemort, Harry.
Perhaps that is an angle, the intersecting point between the share of one another could lead to bridge between the two .. bit deep but like it!
I would say thou - with Harry I can see it but with Voldemort he was ripped from his body and just the maimed piece of soul left inside him existed - is it still plausible Harry could have infected that?

[Lovegood54]

i think that is EXACTLY what was happening. i remember when harry was in the changing room after a quidditch practice or game, and his scar burned. it burned bad enough for him to groan or something, and he played it off that he poked himself in the eye, and he gave ron a significant look and they stayed behind and he told ron that his scar had burned. he then said that it had burned because voldemort was really angry about something. i distinctly remember (because i just finished reading OoTP, but unfortunately i just returned it to the library and my copy is at home, so i cant quote) but ron exclaims "You know what your doing? Your reading You-Know-Who's mind!" and harry responds "No, its more like i am reading his emotions" now everyone forget what harry keeps saying about how Legilmency is mind reading, and look at what snape says:
"The mind is not a book, to be opened at will and examined at leisure. Thoughts are not etched on the inside of skulls, to be perused by any invader. The mind is a complex and many-layered thing... It is true, however, that those who have mastered Legilimency are able, under certain conditions, to delve into the minds of their victims and to interpret their findings correctly." (OoTP)
in reality, legilmency is not mind reading, but emotion and memory reading. which is exactly what harry was doing almost his entire 5th year. i would also like to note that legilmency also seems to be able to be performed without a wand as well as with one. i think this means that when u use the spell, what happens is it makes the effects noticible to the person on the recieving end, since it is only when harry was in lessons with snape that he ever saw what snape saw.

[Alz]

..but by the same respect the times we have seen these employed the people are in the same room ... nope, what ties Harry and Voldemort is more than Occlumency & Legilmency - I mean it has to be!
Every piece of magic has it's limitations and the ability to perform Occlumency & Legilmency remotely would just seem wrong ... I mean anyone could probe anyone if they were accomplished enough!
I believe these 'rules' occur so someone cant come back and say otherwise ... make the limitation known!
It stops people being cheated when the read the books and think, well right there is a hole because why didnt they do this or that ... that link between the two of them is very much still undefined and I dont belive the link is remote Occlumency & Legilmency

[Lovegood54]

hte link itself is most likely not remote legilimency, but i believe it is one of the aspects of this link. the link itself exists, and i believe that legilimency (or something that is pretty much the same thing) occurs because of the failed killing curse.

[Alz]

Well see this is the point and one of the strongest evidence behind HiaH - the unexplained link that we have never seen between anyone else, never adequatly explained by anyone, including Dumbledore ...

That link, whatever it is for arguments sake, is very strong and leading to Harry sharing thoughts and feelings coming in from Voldemort - and we also saw evidence that was somewhat returned by Voldemort.
I actually believe Dumbledore suspected that link well before he chose to disclose it in OoTP ... he isnt stupid and must have wondered himself how Harry was able to 'sense' Voldemort even though he was not physically near him!

[secret seeker]

I thought it was the " curse that failed " that gave Harry the link to voldemort, add to that the fact that Harry is supposed to be destined to vanquish voldemort, could also explain why its Harry and no one else?.

[Alz]

Umm - you put up another yet unexplained mystery to counter another?
We all know no-one has lived through AK - yet we are happy to conclude it caused an 'unexplained' link between the two - how come?
I mean - what logic could be drawn from what we know that could explain that?
See that is the killer point - not only did Harry not die - but he walked away with a direct tap into Voldemort's MIND ... yep, I did highlight the fact it was his mind ... because what he has been pulling is things that are inside Voldemort, parslemouth, in tune with Voldemort's feelings ...
See that is the gripper - no-one actually knows yet few dare to speculate ... ;)

[secret seeker]

Good point there Alz, but, for those of us who don't believe H.i.a.H, maybe Dumbledores un-proven theory is enough?. You can say what else is there, when the real point is to have PROVEN me wrong, it could be the curse that failed, then, even though we don't know more, it still could be.
It could also be Harry is a Horcrux, but that too is also based on Theory, and speculation, we don't know otherwise.
Thanks.
( I still think Harry will die, though ).

[Alz]

Touche - I quite agree!

What I am saying is that link between Harry and Voldemort seems to transcend the limitation we know exists with Occlumency ... I mean the basic rules we have been told about ...
I guess I am just looking into the reasons Harry and Voldemort can so clearly see into each other - so connected ... and all we have is a mothers sacrfice and a backfired AK spell ...

[Lovegood54]

No one has ever survived the Killing Curse, except for Harry Potter. this being said, the whole wizarding world is left with a very strange situation concerning this boy. What kind of effect did this have on this baby, surviving the killing curse? will he suffer any adverse effects, after all some curse have irreparable damage (just look at moody:rolleyes: ) i can see some of the healers at st. mungo's demanding to see little harry potter after he survived the killing curse, not just to make sure he is ok, but to study him and find out why he survived. he is what someone in the scientific field would call an oddity of science. likke if i were to drink a gallon of a cyanide, draino, bleach, and acetone cocktail while being struck by lightning and actually surviving!!!! this said, i would like to say that until such a thing happens again no one will know for certain if the effects harry experiences (i.e. the strange mind connection, harry's scar burning when voldemort is near him, harry being a parselmouth, and the scars very shape!) are a result of survivng the curse or if they are the results of harry actually being a horcrux. i want to say its the first one, that it is just what happens when a person survives that curse.

[Alz]

OK, so taking HiaH out of the picture - what other theories are out there that can explain the events?
The Killing curse that can not be blocked, backfiring ... the AK that leaves no mark leaving a scar on Harry ... the interconnection between Harry and Voldemort ... the ablities to feel strong emotions ... the ablility to plant false images into one anothers head ...
Do we really believe it is Occlumency on steriods?

[Lovegood54]

it just may be, Alz, only JKR knows for sure....
but, i will have to say that it is not. i would bet that it is a very complicated thing, that is not easily explained by saying harry is a horcrux. it sounds to simple to me, and if voldemort was going to make a horcrux with harry's murder, i cant see why the piece of his soul would go into harry instead of the intended object. i mean, lets face itA: Voldemort is no idiot when it comes to magic. he may overlook some thingss (like lily's sacrifice) but he had made multiple horcruxes by the time he went to the potters house that halloween night, so i doubt harry would become an accidental horcrux. not possible if you ask me. if anything, the voldemort we see now is not really voldemort, but actually harry's displaced soul that has been wandering the earth while voldemort, having forced harry's soul out of his little baby body and always been the true GOOD guy of the ahrry potter series, is the one who has been trying to prevent the true harry potter (now in the body of who everyone believes to be voldemort but really isnt) from taking over the world, but that is OT and therefore should not be discussed here.

[Alz]

As I said, I was willing to remove the obivous HiaH argument from the picture to investigate other ways this 'link' was forged between the two.
The only reason I attribute HiaH to it is the underlaying link would then be recognised and plausible - to date no-one has really given me a more fitting reason as to how they seem so connected. That isnt because JKR is going to introduce a new kind of magic - all the clues are now out there and I can not find a shred of anything else that would explain this strong connection. HiaH isnt popular with everyone but it does represent plausibility ... now remove that out of the picture and explain the link - the abilities they share etc - then you have my attention ...