Horcrux creation for Dummies!!

[cagedcactus]

I am the first Dummy to start.
Ok, this is a crucial process that we have discussed in various forums, relating somehow to all the book 7 possibilities. The horcrux creation theory can help find the horcruxes itself.
We have a lot of fellow members discussing different objects or living as horcruxes.
How many of you believe that Horcrux creation can be done only at the time of murder?
AND
How many of you believe that Horcrux creation can be done anytime after the murder?
I believe that it has to be done at the time of murder.
WHY?
Because I believe that Horcrux creation relates more to that feeling, instead of just a spell. That feeling of horrible act of murder rips soul. That soul must be sealed in a vessel right away to avoid loss of that feel. To me, it is not logical to think that, when you kill someone, and then go about your business, and then one day all of a sudden seal a horcrux with that murder you commited some time back. Because if that is the case, then Voldemort can create a horcrux even if he is almost dying at Harry's hands anytime in future when they fight.
Please post your agreements, or disagreements.
And while we are at it, why not discuss the order of spells.
How many of you believe that Horcrux creation spell comes after act of murder?
AND
How many of you believe that Horcrux creation spell comes before act of murder?
This crucial process can also answer a lot about that fateful night when baby Harry survived and Voldemort got blasted.

[yarvelling]

Perhaps....nice idea! I think though that if the Horcrux has to be made at the time of the murder, it is more to protect and preserve the now torn fragment of soul from decaying and dying! Also, I don't know (obviously!!) whether two independant pieces of soul could co-exist within one body, without causing some type of harm; maybe mentally, to the host, so it may well be necessary to create the Horcrux as soon as is possible, as well as giving the orphaned soul a safe refuge!

[Glumbumble]

I agree that it is logical that the murder is contemporaneous with the process of making the Horcrux.
Dumbledore says that he thinks that Voldemort used significant murders for the creation of his horcruxes.
One thing that does confuse me is the statement by Slughorn the "Killing rips the soul apart." this seems to suggest that all murders rip the soul apart. In this case the process of creating a horcrux would simply be encasing something that would otherwise be lost. He also says "But, of course, existence in such a form ... few would want it, Tom, very few. Death would be preferable."
How would this relate to other wizards who have murdered, wormtail or aurors for example.
This leads me to believe that the creation of a horcrux involves not only a vessel and a spell but also a murder committed specifically for the purpose of creating the horcrux and contemporaneously with the spell.

[cagedcactus]

I agree that it is logical that the murder is contemporaneous with the process of making the Horcrux.
Dumbledore says that he thinks that Voldemort used significant murders for the creation of his horcruxes.
One thing that does confuse me is the statement by Slughorn the "Killing rips the soul apart." this seems to suggest that all murders rip the soul apart. In this case the process of creating a horcrux would simply be encasing something that would otherwise be lost. He also says "But, of course, existence in such a form ... few would want it, Tom, very few. Death would be preferable."
How would this relate to other wizards who have murdered, wormtail or aurors for example.
This leads me to believe that the creation of a horcrux involves not only a vessel and a spell but also a murder committed specifically for the purpose of creating the horcrux and contemporaneously with the spell.

Very good points.
I read this somewhere on JKR. She explained in depth of what bad witchcraft practice would do to the wizards and witches.
Cruciatus curse doesnt work if the intention to cause pain is righteous. Once must cast the spell to enjoy and mean it. The reason Voldemort is so good with torchure curses and death curses, is because his feelings are almost default. It is like he has no heart left. His desires, and rotten mind has taken over the body. His time in that orphanage didnt help either. Because he didnt get the attention he needed in childhood. And by the time Dumbledore came with the letter, it was probably too late.
So when he kills, he almost enjoys that kill. He kills so he can encase his ripped soul. Now that same act can leave any normal witch, wizard, or a muggle completely devastated. But it doesnt work the same way with him. So once horcrux is created, his mind set doesnt change, but his soul becomes weaker and weaker by day. Thus changing the whole outlook and personality.
If you agree with the points above, you probably would also agree that such a crucial process cant be waited on. It should be done at the time of the murder.

[yarvelling]

I believe that Voldemorts' killing is for two reasons: To remove obvious threats, and punish those who oppose him, and of course, since he learned of the concept of Horcruxes, as a means to ensure his own immortality. Remember, he had Cedric murdered for no other reason than that he was there, but not needed! frank Bryce wwas killed because he'd spied upon Voldemort. two more deaths of little 'significance' to Voldemort, but they would of course provide more fragments of his soul in which to create new Horcruxes should he so choose! I think that when reference was made to Voldemort favouring 'important' killings for the purpose, it was just his arrogance driving him.
As a side to this; Snape, if he knows of Horcruxes and the required magic (and I'm sure he would!) is now in a position to create one for himself to help him against either Voldemort or harry!

[Sirius Potter Fan]

First my answers . . .

Yes I believe the horcrux must be made and sealed at the time of the murder.

I lean to the spell being cast after the murder, but, within a limited time.

We have argued on another thread whether the soul is split from "any" killing or only those done with murderous intent, in other words the soul may not split when killing is done in self-defense, as the Aurors would have done. It was also argued whether the severed soul piece could rejoin if left in the person and not made into a horcrux. The ideal explanation, that a soul indeed splits in any killing, but, in the case of killing in self-defense can recombine, gives substance to the possibility of redemption. I actualy believe that a pure soul forced to kill would suffer more initialy than a wicked soul, but, that it can heal in time.

[peanutgal1]

I think that since its been explained that the ripping of the soul occurs at the time of the murder, it only makes sense to believe that the horcrux must be created contemporaneous with, but just after the murder.
However, as you and I have discussed before, the Peverell ring had not yet been obtained at the time that Voldemort killed his father or grandparents. In fact, those murders occured in between his fifth and sixth year at Hogwarts (his sixteenth year). Therefore, either a horcrux was not made to seal the murder of Tom Riddle Sr. or horcruxes can be made at any time after the murder. The only other possession that Voldemort had at the time of the Riddles' murders was the diary. However, because Voldemort was so nonchalant about the diary and its preservation, I doubt that it was sealed with a "significant" death.

[cagedcactus]

peanutgal, you started on the right note. Very good point that we discussed in another thread. But let us see where you finished.
I think that the diary definitely sealed his first horcrux. That horcrux is Tom Riddle SR. Then he picked up the ring from Marvolo as he returned that wand. He had the ring on his finger as he asked Slughorn about horcruxes. He wanted to find out if he can create more horcruxes. Every single horcrux he has created intentionally, have been significant deaths. So I think the diary with Riddle Sr. would fit well, agree?



We have argued on another thread whether the soul is split from "any" killing or only those done with murderous intent, in other words the soul may not split when killing is done in self-defense, as the Aurors would have done. It was also argued whether the severed soul piece could rejoin if left in the person and not made into a horcrux. The ideal explanation, that a soul indeed splits in any killing, but, in the case of killing in self-defense can recombine, gives substance to the possibility of redemption. I actualy believe that a pure soul forced to kill would suffer more initialy than a wicked soul, but, that it can heal in time.

Yes I agree word to word. A murder without horcrux creation, whether defense or offense, would rip the soul badly. But then the soul will heal faster too.

Remember, he had Cedric murdered for no other reason than that he was there, but not needed! frank Bryce wwas killed because he'd spied upon Voldemort. two more deaths of little 'significance' to Voldemort, but they would of course provide more fragments of his soul in which to create new Horcruxes should he so choose! I think that when reference was made to Voldemort favouring 'important' killings for the purpose, it was just his arrogance driving him.

Correct you are.
Yes he does kill people like flies. And yes his arrogance drives him. But he choses his killings when he intends and plans to. Significant deaths, significant vessels, significant locations. And that my friend, is the reason why I think the way I posted in begining. Thinking other way around will prove that he probably has few souls ripped in his pocket, which he can use anytime. And that would be against logic.

[peanutgal1]

If he created the diary horcrux with the death of Tom Riddle Sr., why was he so careless with it?

As far as significant deaths, I think you hit the nail on the head when you discussed the murders of the Bones' and Prewetts. I think that Voldemort is sealing the horcruxes with the deaths of the remaining pureblood families. It makes me wonder then whether R.A.B's death sealed a horcrux. Remember that Sirius specifically says that he does not believe that Regulus was important enough for Voldemort to have murdered himself.

When you think about it, other than the Potters, who only became "famous" after Harry survived, other than Riddle, Sr. are there any deaths you would consider significant?

[Glumbumble]

I tend to agree with the idea of soul fragments reuniting with the remaining soul when not used for the creation of a horcrux. It must be the case though, that creating a horcrux does permanently damage the soul. Voldemort appears reluctant to create new horcruxes despite his somewhat casual approach to murder. Dumbledore tells of Voldemort’s anger at Lucius Malfoy when he learns of the destruction of the Diary. It could be that Voldemort was angry at the loss of the Diary itself or the loss of the Horcrux. I tend to think that it was the loss of the Horcrux that angered him.
I have expressed the view, on another thread, that I do not think that Voldemort is able to create any further Horcruxes.
As a newcomer to this site I am still reading through the many interesting and informative threads. I am not sure whether there has been a similar thread to this in relation to the way in which Horcruxes are used, whether they need to be accessed and used when reunited with a body.
Returning to the issue of creating Horcrux creation it would seem that if the murders of the James, Lilly and Harry were to be used to create a further Horcrux then he would have had already decided on a vessel. This must either have been taken to Godric’s Hollow by Voldemort or it must have been at the Potter house.
If it is the case, as has been suggested, that the Horcrux spell is performed after the murder has been committed then it should be safe to assume that Voldemort was unable to perform it after his Avada Kedavra curse had rebounded upon him.

Peanutgal, I am not sure that Voldemort was careless with the Diary. He entrusted it to the care of Lucius who, not knowing what it was, and believing that Voldemort had been killed, disposed of it.
I agree that it is likely that either the Diary or the Ring became a horcrux through the murder of Tom Riddle snr. and that he had already made a horcrux by the time that he spoke to Slughorn about the creation of multiple horcruxes

[cagedcactus]

Returning to the issue of creating Horcrux creation it would seem that if the murders of the James, Lilly and Harry were to be used to create a further Horcrux then he would have had already decided on a vessel. This must either have been taken to Godric’s Hollow by Voldemort or it must have been at the Potter house.
If it is the case, as has been suggested, that the Horcrux spell is performed after the murder has been committed then it should be safe to assume that Voldemort was unable to perform it after his Avada Kedavra curse had rebounded upon him.


Aha....
Welcome to the party. I am sure you will come across horcrux threads, so I wont go into details.
But tell me this. Has there been any proof about what happened that night? No. All we have heard is the closest story from Dumbledore. Dumbledore believes that Voldemort attacked James first, killing him, then went on to kill Harry. But Lily stood in the way, to whom Voldemort offered a chance. She stayed and offered her life to shield Harry. That protection cause the AK curse to rebound on Voldemort when he tried to kill Harry finally.
Now. If the things that way, then I believe there cant be any Horcruxes that night. why? Because of all those three deaths, Voldemort would have wanted Harry's kill to seal a horcrux. Since AK rebounded, no chance for horcrux spell, therefore no Horcrux.
But if the things didnt go that way, and reality is different, then we have a lot of hidden stuff we can discuss. Harry himself being a horcrux can not be denied, either.
I am sure there was another presence at that night in that house. I am sure we will learn more......

[SnarkologyMajor]

We definately have much contradictory evidence to sift through on the subject of whether horcrux creation has to be simultaneous w/killing or not-for one thing, the only voice we have witness from is Barty Jr. & was he even there? He is the one who says about Avada Kedavra-

GoF pg. 217-...."And there's no countercurse. There's no blocking it. Only one person has ever survived it...."

Yet Riddle says in CoS-

pg.317-"So. Your mother died to save you. Yes, that's a powerful countercharm..."

If the curse Avada Kedavra was actually used-then these two statements oppose each other completely. Who do we believe, BC jr. or Voldemort?

JKR has stated that if the dairy horcrux would have succeeded in stealing the life force of Ginny-present day Voldemort would have been considerably stronger. Was this Tom Riddle's plan from the very start? It makes sense on a certain level when you consider that Tom was able to charm those he needed-I can believe that it was never his intention to stay in a mutilated form. For him to be able to regain his 16 yr. old body some some 50 yrs. later is quite a manouver. Does this give us any insight on horcrux creation? Or is this relating only to the use of horcruxes? Still pondering that one...:eek:

[cagedcactus]

GoF pg. 217-...."And there's no countercurse. There's no blocking it. Only one person has ever survived it...."

Yet Riddle says in CoS-

pg.317-"So. Your mother died to save you. Yes, that's a powerful countercharm..."

If the curse Avada Kedavra was actually used-then these two statements oppose each other completely. Who do we believe, BC jr. or Voldemort?



That is an easy one. Of all the things Voldemort has said, the only we can really be sure about him not lying is what you stated up there. He was blasted with that countercharm.
Barty Cr Jr was clever and cunning, but his knowledge about Avada Kedavra curse was just that he knew it was defenseless. Just like any other normal wizard at this moment he has a reason to believe that. Only Voldemort, Dumbledore, and probably Snape or someone mysterious behind the scenes know about that countercharm.

[Glumbumble]

We definately have much contradictory evidence to sift through on the subject of whether horcrux creation has to be simultaneous w/killing or not-for one thing, the only voice we have witness from is Barty Jr. & was he even there? He is the one who says about Avada Kedavra-

GoF pg. 217-...."And there's no countercurse. There's no blocking it. Only one person has ever survived it...."

Yet Riddle says in CoS-

pg.317-"So. Your mother died to save you. Yes, that's a powerful countercharm..."

If the curse Avada Kedavra was actually used-then these two statements oppose each other completely. Who do we believe, BC jr. or Voldemort?

There could be a way that both of these statements could be correct. A definition of a “Charm”, lifted from another site, states Charms can make a person laugh or dance or even create a bubble of breathable air around a person's head. In all of these cases, the object or the person doesn't really change, they just do something unexpected.

A countercurse would seem to me to be some kind of spell that either blocks or negates the curse of another wizard.
Lily performed no countercurse. Her actions, in laying down her own life, without making a spell may well have affected Voldemort in the making of the AK curse. All the information we have about the unforgivable curses tells us that you really have to want to kill or hurt. Dumbledore keeps telling Harry and others of the power of love and says it is something that Voldemort does not understand and therefore underestimates. I would suggest that the reason AK backfired upon Voldemort relates to his feelings at the time the curse was made.
Comments please.

Just found the following record of interview with JKR on Leaky

[Lily] could have lived and chose to die. James was going to be killed anyway. Do you see what I mean? I’m not saying James wasn't ready to; he died trying to protect his family but he was going to be murdered anyway. He had no - he wasn't given a choice, so he rushed into it in a kind of animal way, I think there are distinctions in courage. James was immensely brave. But the caliber of Lily's bravery was, I think in this instance, higher because she could have saved herself. Now any mother, any normal mother would have done what Lily did. So in that sense her courage too was of an animal quality but she was given time to choose. James wasn't. It's like an intruder entering your house, isn't it? You would instinctively rush them. But if in cold blood you were told, "Get out of the way," you know, what would you do? I mean, I don't think any mother would stand aside from their child. But does that answer it? She did very consciously lay down her life. She had a clear choice -
ES: And James didn't.
JKR: Did he clearly die to try and protect Harry specifically given a clear choice? No. It's a subtle distinction and there's slightly more to it than that but that's most of the answer.
MA: Did she know anything about the possible effect of standing in front of Harry?
JKR: No - because as I've tried to make clear in the series, it never happened before. No one ever survived before. And no one, therefore, knew that could happen.
MA: So no one - Voldemort or anyone using Avada Kedavra - ever gave someone a choice and then they took that option [to die] -
JKR: They may have been given a choice, but not in that particular way.

[Sirius Potter Fan]

just as a side note to the above, Barty JR. would not likely have known what happened that night when Harry survived, and, LV didn't talk about it till later in the book, in the Grave yard. . .

[SnarkologyMajor]

I agree-Barty's contribution to our knowledge of what happened w/Harry is hogwash and also designed by JKR to distract us:D I guess I'm questioning whether Voldemort's horcrux creation spell isn't a completely different spell from Avada Kedavra altogether...

[Sirius Potter Fan]

I suppose it could be a possibility that there would be a seperate spell, only . . . the sequence seems to be, 1)kill, 2)soul torn, 3)soul bit removed and sealed in item. It seems unusual that such a significant type of spell could be made so simple as to do all in one step kind of thing, we haven't seen multipurpose spells before, but, not being JKR I can't say for sure what will happen LOL (or for that matter, whether she will ever expand on the situation, I'm thinking probably not) Perhaps this is something that should be put into a carefuly worded question for JKR!

[tobias]

I guess I'm questioning whether Voldemort's horcrux creation spell isn't a completely different spell from Avada Kedavra altogether...

I agree- we have seen the AK used before but only Voldy has Horcruxes. (Or Did Wormtail create a Horcrux with Cedric? )

Something else, some other step must be necessary.
Maybe only a different mindset: like Unforgivable Curses you have to want a Horcrux for it to work...

[cagedcactus]

I agree- we have seen the AK used before but only Voldy has Horcruxes. (Or Did Wormtail create a Horcrux with Cedric? )

Something else, some other step must be necessary.
Maybe only a different mindset: like Unforgivable Curses you have to want a Horcrux for it to work...

Very interesting indeed.
Your last sentence definitely has weight. Knowing what Voldemort is capable of, the horcrux creation may include that dark thought of really wanting it.
He himself has said that he has pushed all the boundaries of Magic. He does act and seem like it.

[Alz]

I think another important factor here is - no-one has ever lived to say how a horcrux was created no?
The knowledge of the process is still unknown to pretty much everyone - even Horace didnt know exactly how it was done ...
Now to the fateful night - we only have 2 accounts of what happened - one from Dumbledore and one from Voldemort ... Dumbledore would appear to know what happened although by rights has no basis unless he was there .... Voldemort makes no mention of anyone else being there at the time from his recollections ... so maybe the moment of obscurity happens between Voldemort killing Lily and him turning to attack Harry ... we know an AK was issued by Voldemort but ASSUME it was levied at Harry ... will stop there and let you all think on that for a minute ...

It would appear from little evidence we have that the killings and object are together at the same time - at least with the cup and the ring ... and of course the significance of linking the three parts together for creating a horcrux exist to give some guidance on what could otherwise be a - ummm US term - crap shoot?

So - we are told you have to kill in order to make a horcrux - although never specifically told it has to be AK - we are just told that is the killing curse - I think assumption kicks in with most people's mind again ...
Voldemort has killed more than 6 times - so if AK is the ripper of souls then his soul is more shredded than anything we have ever seen - certainly more than 6 times ...
So - logic dictates another curse or spell exists that will then peform the horcrux procedure - and I cant help but wonder JKR's recent site update is a cluette to this - she is trying to think up a new word and remembers the same from when she created the word 'Horcrux' ... can you see what it is yet ;)

Soooo - does an object need sealing at time of AK - ummm - that would be your assumption AK is used as the mechanism for killing ... and would seem contradicted by the fact Voldemort has killed so often how would be keep just 7 pieces of soul in tact?

I go for whatever is used to create a horcrux is also used to seal a horcrux - and right now thinking they are not involving AK ...

[Slowie34]

I am the first Dummy to start.
Ok, this is a crucial process that we have discussed in various forums, relating somehow to all the book 7 possibilities. The horcrux creation theory can help find the horcruxes itself.
We have a lot of fellow members discussing different objects or living as horcruxes.
How many of you believe that Horcrux creation can be done only at the time of murder?
AND
How many of you believe that Horcrux creation can be done anytime after the murder?
I believe that it has to be done at the time of murder.
WHY?
Because I believe that Horcrux creation relates more to that feeling, instead of just a spell. That feeling of horrible act of murder rips soul. That soul must be sealed in a vessel right away to avoid loss of that feel. To me, it is not logical to think that, when you kill someone, and then go about your business, and then one day all of a sudden seal a horcrux with that murder you commited some time back. Because if that is the case, then Voldemort can create a horcrux even if he is almost dying at Harry's hands anytime in future when they fight.
Please post your agreements, or disagreements.
And while we are at it, why not discuss the order of spells.
How many of you believe that Horcrux creation spell comes after act of murder?
AND
How many of you believe that Horcrux creation spell comes before act of murder?
This crucial process can also answer a lot about that fateful night when baby Harry survived and Voldemort got blasted.


I do not agree that the horcrux has to be made immediately following the murder. When Voldemort asked Slughorn about horcruxes he was already wearing the ring taken from Morphin after he was framed for the Riddle murders. If he was asking about horcruxes then the chances were he had not yet created one, yet he had already committed the murders. Also Dumbledor said that a while after, Voldemort stopped wearing the ring and he believed that this was when he made it into the horcrux and no longer wanted to wear it. This suggests that a horcrux could be made some time after the murders, not necessarily imediately after.

[cagedcactus]

I do not agree that the horcrux has to be made immediately following the murder. When Voldemort asked Slughorn about horcruxes he was already wearing the ring taken from Morphin after he was framed for the Riddle murders. If he was asking about horcruxes then the chances were he had not yet created one, yet he had already committed the murders. Also Dumbledor said that a while after, Voldemort stopped wearing the ring and he believed that this was when he made it into the horcrux and no longer wanted to wear it. This suggests that a horcrux could be made some time after the murders, not necessarily imediately after.

well, you can debate that in a lot of ways.
He was asking Slughorn about Horcruxes, yes. I and most of the members here think that his intention behind this was to find out whether more than one can be created by one person. Him wearing the ring already actually proves that he had the first horcrux under his belt.
Him wearing the ring at that time cant possibly prove that it is not a horcrux. It very well may not be, but we have to look in the logical direction.
And you summed up in one topic that doesnt even touch the whole horcrux creation process. I would like to hear more on that side too. :)

[cagedcactus]

What Ron said there was a joke. A plain simple joke.
Bloody Baron got offended or not, we have not gotten one clue from books that could lead us to believe that he knows anything about horcruxes.
2 souls or one soul in Harry would not help us decide what kind of Ghost he would become. :rolleyes: And even if it does, it is completely off the topic here.
I would like to steer the ship back to main topic and see if any reading knowledge can jump up and describe the whole Horcrux creation theory.
Voldemort likes to keep things to himself as we all know. His ultimate desire to get back to Hogwarts always struck me as to some sort of clue lingering in walls of the ancient castle.

[jsez4444]

This is kind of what is tripping me up about when Voldemort went to ask Slughorn about the Horcruxes. We know that this happened after he killed Tom Riddle Sr. and Marvolo because he already has the Ring, and he killed Riddle Sr. first. We also know that both the ring and the diary are Horcruxes, because they were both destroyed as such. So if we are to assume that the murders of Riddle Sr. and Marvolo were both used as "significant murders" and that the diary and ring are the two vessels for the pieces of Voldemort's soul separated by these two murders, and that Horcruxes must be created immediately after a murder is committed then we can only come to one of two conclusions. Either Voldemort already knew how to create Horcruxes and that he already knew he could make more than one when he came to ask Slughorn about them, which raises the question of why he needed to ask Slughorn about it at all, or we are wrong in assuming that the Horcrux must be created immediately following a murder. Either of these conclusions only confuses the issue more.

Originally when I read this thread I held the opinion that Horcruxes must be created immediately after the murder is committed. After reading through a lot of the evidence on both cases I have come to my conclusion above. Which is really not a conclusion at all because I now have no idea what I believe. Please let me know if any of what I said made any sense at all, or if I have assumed a few things that are not true, all of my assumptions were based on information I got from this thread.

[Glumbumble]

1943 was a busy year for Tom Riddle (his fifth year). It was the year that he opened the Chamber of Secrets, resulting in the death of Moaning Myrtle (May), it was the year he received an Award for Special Services to the School (currently in the trophy room and possibly a Horcrux) (June), it was the year he killed his father and grandparents (July/August), it was the year he asked Slughorn about Horcruxes (September -) and it was the year he made his first Horcrux sealing his sixteen year old self into the Diary.
As far as I can see the only Horcrux that can be dated is the Diary and this needed to have been made before New Years Eve 1943.

When Riddle questions Slughorn about Horcruxes he gets agitated and does not give the impression that he knows, at that point, how to complete a Horcrux,
But Riddle's hunger was now apparent; his expression was greedy, he could no longer hide his longing.
"How do you split your soul?"
"Well," said Slughorn uncomfortably, "you must understand that the soul is supposed to remain intact and whole. Splitting n it I an act of violation, it is against nature."
"But how do you do it?"
"By an act of evil — the supreme act of evil. By committing murder. Killing rips the soul apart. The wizard intent upon creating a Horcrux would use the damage to his advantage: He would encase the torn portion —"
"Encase? But how — ?"
"There is a spell, do not ask me, I don't know!" said Slughorn shaking his head like an old elephant bothered by mosquitoes. " Do I look as though I have tried it — do I look like a killer?"


This suggests to me that the Diary was made into a Horcrux some time between September and December, after the conversation with Slughorn. This means that either Horcruxes can be made using a murder committed in the past, in which case he could have used his father/grandparents murder, or he murdered again for the purpose of creating the Horcrux. Personally I feel that the latter explanation is the right one and that his first murders were an act on vengeance on his father.

[cagedcactus]

Excellent. Both of you made real good points.
I always had the same thing on my mind. If I choose to believe in the theory that Horcrux creation is not possible once the guilt of murder is not fresh, then the ring didnt become a horcrux with the murder of Tom Riddle Sr.
Here is what I have to say to make a case. Tom wore that ring after he snatched it from Marvolo. If he had made that a horcrux before talking to slughorn, I doubt he would wear it in school in front of so many talented wizards. He would rather hide it somewhere. So I think that diary sealed the horcrux with Tom Riddle Sr. And ring sealed later with another kill once he
confirmed from Slughorn that multiple horcruxes are possible.
I dont expect JKR to come forward and explain this in book 7. Because she would want us to debate and go at it for a while :D

[Jenelle]

I agree- we have seen the AK used before but only Voldy has Horcruxes. (Or Did Wormtail create a Horcrux with Cedric? )

Something else, some other step must be necessary.
Maybe only a different mindset: like Unforgivable Curses you have to want a Horcrux for it to work...

Voldemort cant be the only one that has horcurxes...he asked slughorn about it before he made them or atleast made 7 of them so someone has to have done it before him right? I wonder who it was? Grindewald maybe, DD is good at destroying horcruxes and he finally killed him right? sorry off topic.

[Piper]

Jennelle,

I don't think someone else in the past had made more than 1 Horcrux.

I think that Voldemort took a pretty big chance in creating more than 1, because there was no one to advise him on what would happen with more than 1.

I am going to weigh in here for future reference, even though I have given my thoughts on another thread. I think that once the murder is committed, the most supreme act of evil, cold blooded murder, that the Horcrux can be created later. That the rip remains in the soul once you have committed murder, I think unless you do something to redeem yourself. I think as long as you keep all of your soul in your body, you have a chance at redemption still. That is why others who have committed murder do not have the appearance of Voldemort. Their souls are still inside of them, albeit ripped, and there is still a chance they can be forgiven for the murder. Voldemort cannot redeem himself with parts of his soul housed outide of his body. I think there has to be forgivness, or else everyone that ever murdered anyone in the Wizard world would have created Horcruxes. I think unless you truely in your heart regret the murder, then the rip remains and you can make a Horcrux at any time after that from the ripped away portion.

The timeline gives me this idea. Like Glum says above, 1943 was a busy year for Voldemort, In 1943, he murdered the Riddles in July, he returned to Hogwarts and asked Slughorn about Horcruxes in the fall, before he turned 17 on Dec 31, he created the Diary Horcrux. Glum shows all of this in a post above, but Glum thinks that he must have created another murder to make the Diary.

On Page 439 HBP, we see Dumbledore tell Harry that he did not believe Voldemort killed anyone else between the Riddles and Mrs Smith who had the locket and cup.

I can't see JKR having Dumbledore say that if the Horcrux has to be present during the murder, and the spell cast right then. Because Dumbledore knows how Horcruxes are made. Slughorn doesn't know the spell, but Dumbledore does, I think, I can see her having him not say anything at all, but I can't see her having Dumbledore's thought process be based on things that are incorrect. She might mislead us with Dumbledore, but she wouldn't contradict herself with Dumbledore. Especially when she could just have easily left that part out of the text.

I think also that this redemption process is something that is going to play into the real reason why Dumbledore believed that Snape had changed. She has said of the series, "I do not think the books are THAT secular". So I can see a forgivness/redemption angle on the Horizion.

[cagedcactus]

So you are basically suggesting this.......

Harry goes on and destroys every single horcrux. Then he comes face to face with Voldemort. He tells Voldemort about the fate of his horcruxes, and then tries to kill him/destroy him.

As long as Voldemort has his wand in his hands, or his magic in him, he can not be destoryed. Because he will have all these ripped souls within his body, that he can use to create a quick horcrux before he dies. Thus, as long as he has atleast one ripped soul together with main soul in his body, he can not be killed? :rolleyes: Because as soon as he is cornered and has no chance, he will keep creating horcruxes before dying again, and again, and again.....

Please say it aint so.......
Or Harry is doomed. Wizarding world is doomed....

[Sirius Potter Fan]

I have to agree CC. That would be frightening . . . unless . . . The spell requires more than a quick incantation, an object, and flick of the wand. As I have stated on another thread quite some time ago, the creation of a Horcrux can neither be quick or simple, or everyone would have one. I do see the redemptive theme Piper, and I do believe that the soul can become whole again for those truley penetant. We have to believe DD on the murders which means that he must have used "old rips" for the horcruxes. What remains to be understood I think, is whether or not Voldemort has control over which ripped peice he uses for what Horcrux. Can he somehow seperate them and "file" them away for placement later on? Otherwise having "special" murders for "special" objects woud be impossible unless you waited to comit the murder till you had the object ready. If Voldemort had say killed 7 times since he had created his last Horcrux, and wanted to use murder #4 for the cup . . .?

[Piper]

Caged,
I think if Harry had destroyed all of the existing Voldemort Horcruxes, and while trying to kill Voldemort, somehow was stupid enough to tell him, "Hey I destroyed all of your Horcruxes" and somehow Voldemort managed to escape, that yes it's possible that he could go off and murder someone else, and create another Horcrux. Or could go off and create another Horcrux from a rip that was already in his soul.

Because we do not know the total number of Horcruxes allowable per person. It could be any number. We think he only wanted 7 because that is the most magically powerful number, but he might rethink that if he is down to zero Horcruxes.

Of course it could be just as possible that there is some Horcrux rule that says once you have made the first Horcrux, you have to have atleast one existing Horcrux to make others. Also remember, Voldemort has no way of knowing either, he's in unchartered waters here. At the time that the AK curse rebounded, he was not certain that his multiple Horcruxes would work.

And I think it would require Voldemort to escape Harry, or atleast get to somewhere where he could concentrate on doing the incredibly long and difficult spell. I think it is very complicated. Not something that could be done while dodging AK Curses.

SPF,
Maybe Voldemort learned very early on that if you let the murders stack up, then you can never really know which murder goes with which Horcrux. Again, you have to remember, he admittedly was just experimenting. Going further than anyone has ever gone before. Maybe that is why Dumbledore figures he did not kill anyone between the Riddles and Mrs. Smith. Dumbledore figures it would matter a great deal to Voldemort who died for which Horcrux. Or maybe details about the person murdered are part of the Horcrux spell.

[cagedcactus]

Piper,
Harry wont be STUPID to tell Voldemort that his all the horcruxes are destroyed. He would be BRAVE and SMART. He would actually take Voldemort to school of bravery and show him that his days are numbered, by doing that. Can you imagine the fear on Voldemort's face when he learns that all his ripped souls have left the earth for good? Can you imagine the horror he learns that he is no longer immortal? Can you imagine his fury to survive that last battle, or fear of on coming death?
I know one way or another, JKR will manage to show this. She cant miss out on that master stroke....
Think about the effect of this on Death eaters? Their master's dirty secret out, and master is taken to school by a young Harry........
How can JKR even want to miss on that moment.
It is not stupidity. It is bragging rights.....
It is bravery, and very Gryffindorish.......
:D

And now you put all these desperate points together to find a ground for horcrux creation theory...... none of them make sense to me..... I apologize respectfully.......

Are you telling me that as days go by, and murders go by, Voldemort is storing his ripped souls in some kind of storage in his body, and then uses it as he comes across artefacts? WOW........

If the hocrux creation process is so complicated, that it can not be performed at the time of battle, and needs concentration, has it ever occured to you, that how important that killing moment and fresh feeling of murder guilt would be?
If a person commits murder, that soul is ripped right at that moment. And if that person is not a wizard or doesnt store it in a vessel, the feeling doesnt stay same. The ripped soul rejoins the primary soul. The killer will have mamory of that kill.... but the guilt leaves .....
Dumbledore doesnt actually claim on number of murders Tom has under his belt.
He just assumes, to give an idea to Harry.
He is preparing Harry for the rocky road ahead.

[Piper]

Caged,

I think the soul is automatically housed in the body, even when torn, all of the pieces remain inside of the body, automatically unless Horcruxes are made. I think that having tears, a soul divided, is one of the consequences of committing cold blooded murder. That you do not get to have a solid soul after that.

Even if no one sees you commit the murder, if one knows, there is still that consequence, a torn soul. You want to die with a solid soul, and I think there is redemption in this fictional world also. But you have to work for it, I think that the soul does not just reunite automatically after an hour, or a day or a week or any amount of time. The more murders that you commit, the more work you have to do to get all of the soul healed.

This has been my feeling since reading it all the first time. It's just what makes sense to me.

Also, I do not think it matters a bit if Dumbledore is correct or not in his opinion that no murders were committed between the Riddles, and Mrs. Smith. I am only looking at his thought process. Since I believe that Dumbledore knows how Horcruxes are created, I think the fact that he even would entertain the opinion that none were murdered after the Riddles, that none were murdered between the time that Voldemort talked to Slughorn upon returning to school, and New Years Eve 1943, means it's that you can make Horcruxes later, after the moment of the murder.

I believe that it is not the moment of murder that is of significance. It's the torn soul that remains inside of your body that is of significance with Horcrux creation. And you bet, I think it takes concentration to remove part of your soul and encase it into something outside of the body. How could it not? It takes concentration to apparthiate!

Creating a Horcrux is a major move. If it is lost, or destroyed, that means you can never redeem yourself. You are past the point of return, as you cannot die with a complete, solid soul. I will tell you, this is a part that I have a lot of trouble with, but it seems to me to be the way she has written this.

[cagedcactus]

well, although I have different ideas about that whole creation process, we will probably just have to wait for the book.
My fear is, we may not get our answers even in book 7. Because the hunt of horcruxes may or may not involve the process of it explained while Harry is tracking them down and destroying them.
We will just have to agree on the dis agreement on this topic.......
:D

[Seeker615]

It is so complicated and I think maybe JK will not technically explain the whole horcrux process to us.

Like you said Caged, it's open to interpretation so everyone has an opinion on how it works.

My take from reading the books is this:

You set out to commit a murder. (I don't think your soul splits if the murder was self-defense or unintentional) You have to want to commit the murder.

Before you actually do so you have to have something ready to put the piece of your soul into and do a spell to have the object ready to "accept" the soul.

With object ready you committ the deed and your soul splits and the object accepts the soul and it is now a horcrux.

I am leaning toward the idea that an object that is enchanted to accept the horcux will pull the piece of soul that is split out of the body and into the object.

I also think once you make a horcrux your soul will never be whole again.

[Sirius Potter Fan]

Or maybe details about the person murdered are part of the Horcrux spell.
Take a look at that . . . tucked down in the bottom of a long post I think everyone may have missed it . . . Do you see the pure simple sense in it? Also a perfect tie in with the rebirth. "The bone of the Father . . . The flesh of the servant . . . the blood of the foe . . ." There were specific things needed for rebirth, from specific persons. Does it not make sense that the same would be required for a Horcrux. They are linked are they not?

It even makes more sense with the fact that Voldemort chose articles of significance.

[Rory]

Yet another charm 'sealed with blood?' It would make a certain symetric sense.

[gbogbo]

Or maybe details about the person murdered are part of the Horcrux spell.

Take a look at that . . . tucked down in the bottom of a long post I think everyone may have missed it . . . Do you see the pure simple sense in it? Also a perfect tie in with the rebirth. "The bone of the Father . . . The flesh of the servant . . . the blood of the foe . . ." There were specific things needed for rebirth, from specific persons. Does it not make sense that the same would be required for a Horcrux. They are linked are they not?

It even makes more sense with the fact that Voldemort chose articles of significance.



WOW!!! This is a really interesting twist. Piper...truly awesome insight! Nice catch there Sirius Potter Fan

Might this imply that the murdered person needs to have a connection to the horcrux item? For exmaple, would an heir of Slytherin need to be murdered if the horcrux item was once owned by Salazar Slytherin? The mind simply reels...

[cagedcactus]

I dont think so.
I think that notion was more towards the darker depths of Horcrux creation itself, than relation between the killer, the vessel, and the victim.
Voldemort has three horcruxes that are slytherin connected. The locket, the ring and the diary. He might have nagini as possible 4 (the serpent logic).
I dont think he has killed anyone in slytherin himself atleast. RAB was killed, but Sirius thinks that he didnt die at the hands of Voldemort.

[gbogbo]

I dont think so.
I think that notion was more towards the darker depths of Horcrux creation itself, than relation between the killer, the vessel, and the victim.
Voldemort has three horcruxes that are slytherin connected. The locket, the ring and the diary. He might have nagini as possible 4 (the serpent logic).
I dont think he has killed anyone in slytherin himself atleast. RAB was killed, but Sirius thinks that he didnt die at the hands of Voldemort.

Murdered Slytherin Heirs: 2 Grandparents & his Father:D

[cagedcactus]

Are you kidding me?:D
Riddles were non magic people. They were muggles.
The heir line came from Gaunts. From his mother, Merope Gaunt.

[Jenelle]

[quote=Piper;31171]Jenelle,

I don't think someone else in the past had made more than 1 Horcrux.

I think that Voldemort took a pretty big chance in creating more than 1, because there was no one to advise him on what would happen with more than 1.


Sorry i havent been on in a while...Piper, i just meant that lv couldnt have been the first person to ever make a horcrux-one. i know we all conclude that he was the first to make seven.

[Lovegood54]

yeah, i agree with cagedcactus that a soul will only remain ripped for a period of time before the ripped piece of soul, like two drops of water on the car window on a rainy day, will become one with the rest of the soul. i like the idea of the object being enchanted to suck the soul piece into itself. i think it is possible to make an infinite amount of horcruxes, but the consequence of doing so will make you look physically like a corpse. afterall, when we see Riddle visit hepzibah, he is described as looking waxy. i attribute this to him having made a couple horcruxes: since he no longer has a whole soul in his body, he is slowly looking less human. as far as his snakelike appearance after his rebirth, i think it has something to do with the rudimentary body he had. i think he also found that potion he used for the rebirthing while he was researching horcruxes. put on guard by what slughorn said about being "a part-soul wandering the world" bit. afterall, if i had heard that, i would have devoted myself to creating the horcruxes, and finding the means of recreating my body if my part soul for some reason got seperated from my body. it is all tied together, i think. the first guy to create a horcrux experienced being murdered, and then he had to find a way to get a new body, and a devoted servant figured it out with help from the master, kinda like how voldemort did. snake venom and unicorn blood, bone of the father, blood of an enemy, and flesh of the servant. pretty simple potion, i think. strange.

[Piper]

Glum,
Earlier in this thread, you mention the possibility of the Trophy that was awarded to Voldemort in 1943, for special service to the School as a possible Horcrux.

I was reading through PS/SS today, Malfoy and Harry were looking for a place to duel, and it was stated, "The Trophy Room is always unlocked". So you may be on to something there:)

[Sirius Potter Fan]

I kind of like that too . . . When Ron had to polish it in his detention, I seem to remember that he seemed to have trouble with that particular one didn't he? could it be because it was "possesed"?

[Piper]

I just looked that up in CS, he had to polish the House cup 14 times to please Flich, and he had another attack and vomited slugs all over the Tom Riddle Trophy.

Riddle mentions the Trophy though, when he is talking to Harry through the Diary.

[Lovegood54]

of course mentioned the award to harry in the memory! he got that award for ratting out Hagrid and saying that Aragog killed myrtle! if they had asked her ghost and shown some sympathy and such, they would have known that Aragog didnt kill her! so yeah, since Riddle got the award for stopping the killings by "finding out" that hagrid was the one whose evil pet was killing students (even though aragog wasn't evil, but just disliked humans and was harmless when he was actually in the school) Riddle would mention the award because it lends credence to his side of the story, and make hagrid look bad. after all, who would doubt Riddle when he received an award and hagrid was expelled? of course, friendship would have over riden this, if hagrid had told harry why he had been expelled before that. anyway, the award lends credence to Riddles story because it is like a diploma. Riddle can say"See? i am right, this shows that i am right because the person in charge recognises me as right."

although, if the award is a horcrux, it could explain why Ron suddenly had a slug-barfing fit. oh no, i didnt say that and i am not saying that the soul piece sealed in a horcrux can manifest itself. BUT maybe the curse protecting the horcrux causes past curses/jinxes to re-manifest themselves as a way of protecting itself. since the slug-barf jinx was the only jinx put on Ron (as far as we know) at that point in his life, when Ron was close to the award handling it and such, the horcrux protection kicked in and caused him to barf more slugs. interesting idea, but its base is all liquid water, and the theory is a rock. it just dont float. not for me anyway.

[Piper]

I think the slug thing was just a way for JKR to mention the Trophy. I don't think it caused Ron to have the episode, he was already doing that earlier in the day.