View Full Version : Destructing Houses
OK, this is an oldie but I like it!
We know the Killing curse leaves no mark - so how did the Potters House become reduced to rubble?
The last acts in the house we are lead to belive is Lily dying and then Voldemort attacking Harry - casting AK and then it backfires ....
We are then left with a blowup house ... and Harry still inside ...
Is this an indication that perhaps someone else was there - see point 1 - AK leaves no mark ... if you speculate the spell caused this, how did it blow up a house when it leaves no mark?
Kingsley
01-11-2004, 12:20
Wormtail ransacked the house looking for Voldemort's wand--
Seems a bit simple of course but thats the way I pictured it--unless there was an actual fight/duel and missed curses bounced off objects in the house causing them to shatter and break--
I still think of it in the same state as when Harry's areawas ransacked when Ginny went to get the diary back from him in book 2
Thanks Wheezy
Hagrid says that he pulled Harry out of the rubble in PoA:
It was me what rescued Harry from Lily an' James's house after they was killed! jus' got him outta the ruins, poor little thing, with a great slash across his forehead, an' his parents dead...
Alright, well, to take the easiest way out -- we know the Killing Curse itself leaves no mark, but what about the backfired Killing Curse? It's not like its ever happened before so no proof unless someone asks JKR, but the result is much different from that of the Killing Curse, so what's to say there aren't any side effects, such as Harry's scar, or even a destroyed house. ;)
Otherwise, if we are going to go with someone else is there, what's to say there wasn't another Death Eater there helping Voldemort (not with the actual killing obviously, but with little servant-y type tasks). ;) I think there's a possibility that he brought some backup, not that he would need it, but just because.
Weasleyfanforever
01-11-2004, 12:28
LMAO! I was just gonna quote that! :D
I was always under the impression that the magic that was activated when the curse was backfired was so powerful that it caused the house to collapse. Either that, or someone was there that night and demolished the house before they left, in an attempt to kill Harry by having the house fall on him...
... given the force of that backfired spell - one that can destroy a house - would guess there wouldnt have been much left of Voldemort, Lily and Harry!
I dont think that is the case - Harry's protection saved him from Voldemorts AK curse - but wouldnt have stopped tons of concrete and motar falling on him ...
catchthesnitch
01-11-2004, 12:37
A quote for thought:
from PS/SS; the Vanishing Glass:
'You could just leave me here,' Harry put in hopefully (he'd be able to watch what he wanted on television for a change and maybe even have a go on Dudley's computer)/
Aunt Petunia looked as though she'd just swallowed a lemon.
'And come back and find the house in ruins?' she snarled.
'I won't blow up the house,' said Harry, but they weren't listening.
Not calling a judgment here, but isn't that quote food for thought. You guys have at it, but if the AK curse didn't do it, could little ickle baby Harry have done it somehow?
... given the force of that backfired spell - one that can destroy a house - would guess there wouldnt have been much left of Voldemort, Lily and Harry!
I dont think that is the case - Harry's protection saved him from Voldemorts AK curse - but wouldnt have stopped tons of concrete and motar falling on him ...
Well, if you're thinking that way, then couldn't anything else that had destroyed the house have killed Harry as well? ;) But yeah, I see your point. If there was someone else there, they could have stopped anything from landing on Harry and injuring him.
Yet, Voldemort would have been just a spirit directly after the spell backfired -- or at least, his body wouldn't have really mattered anymore anyway, would it?
To stretch it extremely far just for the sake of it, I suppose the house didn't necessarily have to be completely destroyed. You never know, there could have been a beam that just happened to be propped up directly over Harry's head that protected him from being killed by falling ceilings.
Tinkerbell
01-11-2004, 14:34
Also, when Voldemort, as Tom Riddle, killed his father and parents (have I got that bit right?) they were discovered without a mark on them, and there is no mention that the house had been destroyed in any way!
Interesting thread here, Blaise, whether this is just an oversight on JKR's part, or whether there is something to be revealed later in the Septology is anyone's guess!
That will be my point - the AK spell is clean - in fact too clean as JKR states in the start of GoF the people that examined the Riddles assumed they were scared to death because the grey eyes and expression on their face was the only real evidence they were dead!
Someone or something brough the house down - and it seems that unless Harry has another little gift - Voldemort was alone and the parents were dead ... so what bought the house down and kept Harry safe?
Petunia said to harry that "your parents had to go and get themselves blown up" if the house wasnt destroyed then why wasnt there any bodies found? Also if the Potters were blown up then how were they burried? Also if the bodies were there then wouldnt Voldemorts be there also, along with anyone else that was in the house as previously suspected? Just a few thoughts after reading the posts :S
Well this is another on of those 'Septology' questions - where are the remains of the Potters?
I dont want to go too much into it here as it would be off-topic - but I did create and article on this you might want to look at - a link can be found on the front page :)
We know the house was destroyed - but as to any other points - they remain locked up in JKR's head for now ... maybe :)
Just to add something here - in PS/SS, Chapter Four, Harry is introduced to Hagrid and Hagrid starts to give the details of Harry's parents' deaths.
He says, "Never wondered how you got that mark on yer forehead? That was no ordinary cut. That's what yeh get when a powerful, evil curse touches yeh - took care of yer mum an' dad an' yer house, even."
So from this quote, it appears that at least Hagrid thinks that the curse is what ruined the house. However, I find it very interesting to note that he doesn't mention the name of the curse - just says it was a powerful, evil curse . . .perhaps he doesn't want to get into it with Harry just yet as he is so young, or perhaps there might have been something else to the curse.
Well see this is the irony of the thing - AK leaves no mark - we have seen the effects of it in many examples throughout the series ...
Yah - you can argue that it was mis-cast etc but the properties and effects of the spell seem totally opposit ..
So yah - I like your point Boing - what exactly was cast!
Well this is another on of those 'Septology' questions - where are the remains of the Potters?
I dont want to go too much into it here as it would be off-topic - but I did create and article on this you might want to look at - a link can be found on the front page :)
We know the house was destroyed - but as to any other points - they remain locked up in JKR's head for now ... maybe :)
Another point here that can be taken from Hagrid's quote in PS/SS is that he says that the curse "took care of" Harry's parents and the house, so perhaps by that he meant that their bodies were destroyed along with the house . . .
Yah - agreed it seems like a convienient way to explain why there is no graves etc or at least Harry hasnt been told - but if you look at JKR's writing literally - then the effects of AK arent correct in what happened ...
A spell that cannot be blocked would also mean it cant be deflected in my book - and it wouldnt rip the whole house apart and leave just Harry in the rubble ...
Yah - you can see - it bothers me!
However no one ever stated for a fact that it was the AK that Voldemort used....there could be another curse that is more powerful than that-Hagrid did say that Lily and James were powerful wizards... So I guess what I'm getting at is the fact that just because JKR didnt tell us yet that there is something more powerful than the AK doesnt mean that it doesnt exist, she does that a lot. We also still dont know a lot about their deaths so the AK could very well be the one used, but its just as possible that it wasnt. :)
A different theory....
Does anyone think here that the emotions of the wizards involved might not have had an effect? Lets review what happens when Harry has been angry, scared or upset: He's regrown hair, he's ended up on a roof, he's blown up his aunt, he's made glass disappear and sweater's shrink.
Now, with respect to Godric's Hollow--I think it is possible that the combinations of James' emotion at thinking his family is in mortal danger, Lily's reaction to that as well as the death of her husband, and Voldemort's failure to actually kill Harry could have created enough resoundant energy to bring that house down. If this is indeed Voldy's chief enemy and he discovers that he cannot destroy him, even when he is a little baby, i would imagine his rage alone could have destroyed the whole house in an effort to get his way by the rubble killing him (much in the same way Harry made the sweater shrink and his hair regrow).
Mind you, though i posit this new theory, if everyone thinks its codswallop, i side with those who make think it is a rebound of the curse. We have never yet had a reference to another killing curse, and I don't have any idea why JKR would pull a new one out after she's so thoroughly versed us in this one.
Thoughts? Flames? Chocolates?
atticus
Wow - Atticus, really liking that theory!
So in this scenario, Harry obviously sees his mom and dad killed (well, not his dad, but he hears his dad being killed) and is faced with the man who did it right in front of him. Even at that young age, I think those emotions (fear, anger, sadness, etc.) all mixed up could cause some interesting results. Enough even to blow up the house. Perhaps it was a mixture of Lily's sacrifice and Harry's emotions that vanquished Voldemort that first time.
Certainly lends credence to the idea that Harry's emotions will play a role near the end of the series as well . . .
Good ideas - thanks for sharing!
Oh, and I like your sig quote as well . . . one of my favorite books. :)
Interesting theory Atticus - never heard that one before!
Umm - I suppose that takes some breaking down to understand it ...
are you saying the house full of everyone's emotions are what bought the house down?
Because it seems that people's emotions were triggers at different times - James and Lily collectively coupled with Voldemort's - then Voldemort and James - Lily and Harry - Voldemort & Lily - Voldemort and Harry ....
Unless it was a growing energy based on the chain of effects - then it would be hard to narrow only one as being the trigger ...
I don't think Harry was mentally mature enough to full understand what was happening -0 because it was traumatic he can recall it - but at a year of age I don't think his mind could have mustered all that energy ...
Voldemort on the other hand - being as powerful as he is - could quite easily got too excited and been the trigger ...
I like it - I am a little unsure as we have never seen an effect similar in nature - we have seen Harry do things when his mind is racing but never seen anything akin to that destruction based on pure emotion ....
still I like it - nice one!
Interesting theory Atticus - never heard that one before!
Umm - I suppose that takes some breaking down to understand it ...
are you saying the house full of everyone's emotions are what bought the house down?
Because it seems that people's emotions were triggers at different times - James and Lily collectively coupled with Voldemort's - then Voldemort and James - Lily and Harry - Voldemort & Lily - Voldemort and Harry ....
Unless it was a growing energy based on the chain of effects - then it would be hard to narrow only one as being the trigger ...
Thank you very much, and let me amend a bit. I was unsure of which person I would have placed the responsibility on before hand and did not properly edit. Dumb mistake, especially for me.
Let me clarify.
I do not think it was a chain reaction. I am pretty sure it was only one person's emotions. It could have been either of Harry's parents (for them, it could have been intentional) or Harry himself.
If it were Lily or James, more likely Lily, I would think that with her blood protection, she hoped that bringing down the house would kill Voldemort but not Harry. In this instance, her death and the attempted curse on Harry would have had to been very quick. No time for villianous speeches or the like. However, I tend to think it was Harry. It was such a primal reaction to seeing his mother die, he did not have to have any conciousness of it.
In the alternative, though, I am also still a big fan of the rebound theory. Frankly, it could have been a combination of the rebound effect, Harry's emotional response to his mother AND his primal instinct to protect himself.
Thoughts? Flames? Chocolates?
atticus
PS Thank you everyone for the warm welcome!
Hermione
13-01-2005, 14:37
A quote for thought:
Not calling a judgment here, but isn't that quote food for thought. You guys have at it, but if the AK curse didn't do it, could little ickle baby Harry have done it somehow?
I don't think he meant he literally wouldn't blow up the house, I think he meant he would wreak things. Harry doesn't even know he is a wizard at this point.
Hermione
13-01-2005, 14:43
I like the idea of Harry making the house colapse as an instinct to seeing his mother die. He did many other magical things out of emotion at the Dursely's like making his hair grow back, or Dudley's old sweater shrink so it would not fit him or making his teacher's wig turn blue. Feeling a very powerful loss, perhaps he reacted by making the house crumble.
I think given the details Atticus posted that Lily would have been the most likely trigger ...
I get the feeling that whatever she did with her 'charm' was a catalyst for a sudden chain of effects...
After killing Lily I dont think Voldemort hung around - he turned to attack Harry and cast away ...
I am of the thinking that the essence or even the soul of Lily was still present - maybe fading at the time and it was this that caused the unpredictable effects - and also caused the house to implode ...
Other possiblity is that he didnt even get to cast at Harry and the effects of the blast and Voldemort being removed from the body came from attacking Lily ...
I actually like the idea of Harry's emotions getting the better of him (power he knows not). Even as a one year-old, I think he could be very sad/angry/etc. He would be confused and not know how to express himself except by crying out or just feeling emotion.
As for Lily having some sort of effect, I'm not sure on that one. Not sure how long people's souls hang around and what they could actually do while there - I'm thinking of James here. If he was still hanging around, why didn't he do something when Voldemort was going after Lily and Harry? Or are you saying that Lily was special in this way - that for some reason her soul would have stuck around?
I'm not sure - and doubt anyone else can really answer how emotionally aware we are at 1 years old ... I get to thinking it probably isn't that much ..
I think you can obviously fee pain, hunger etc but to have real raw anger, grief etc - I just don't see it - sorry :(
We are told that Lily was unique - the best witch of her time ... we also know she was a charms master ... I wonder if she took steps herself once she knew Harry was in the frame for termination?
We know someone can be ripped from their body post AK - and I do wonder what happens to those souls post AK - I just think Lily given her extraordinary powers and grasp of old magic was still able to effect events because of the fear of her child dying?
We are told that Lily was unique - the best witch of her time ... we also know she was a charms master ...
Granted its a bit OT, but who do we know that has also been referred to in such terms and proven her gift with charms? You know me, I see Hermione everywhere!
Now, to your post, I am perfectly willing to support a theory of Lily as the catalyst. If she put such a powerful charm on Harry that all the curse did was to cut him, it must have been a heckuva rebound when that cursed bounced back. I think it could have brought the house down.
atticus
I'm still on board with the idea that it is a backfired spell - a really doozy that, when it backfired, it pretty much destroyed everything . . .
Now, I have posted in another thread that it might be possible that Voldemort had developed a curse which would "steal" death from someone else and he is using whatever it is that he steals to ensure his own immortality. What if he tried to use this curse on Harry and when it backfired, we see that indeed, he was ripped from his body, and everything around was destroyed.
Does anyone else (aside from Blaise :D ) think it is possible that the curse Voldemort performed was NOT Avada Kedavra?
I'm with you Boing. I'm kinda liking the "death eater curse" but I'm not sure yet. But as I have posted before I also dont think its the AK that he used. If it was then it wouldnt leave a mark, and I'm sure someone in the magical world would be able to tell what it is, I'm thinking DD or someone could tell if it was the AK, but no one has spoken up. But as I said I'm not sure I will have to wait and see - so dont slaughter me for saying that yet lol!
Does anyone else (aside from Blaise :D ) think it is possible that the curse Voldemort performed was NOT Avada Kedavra?
I agree with the possibility, but find it suspect that when it came to trying to kill Harry the second time around, AK was used as well. Now I know some of you will counter that Voldy knew better than to use the other one because it would rebound, but I just don't know.
atticus
You know, and this is what still grabs me about this - AK cannot be blocked ...
I am sure it is even written that way as well - you cant block it ...
As such - the effect of a rebound still supports the theory that wasnt the spell Voldemort was trying to use on young Potter ...
We also know that AK doesnt leave a mark - well the house was destroyed ... once again I question if indeed AK was used ...
Compelling is the evidence to suggest that AK was the curse of choice - but post casting - the effects are alien ...
Also - that spell was never in the Priori Incantem moment ... so I really question if indeed it was employed ...
I know that Lily cast a protection and sacrifice and this could have made the spell react in a different manner than the usual planned and desired effects - but still - it just doesnt seem to sit right with me and never has ... the force to bring the house down just seems like a concealing moment - like someone was trying to hide something ...
Fortescue
15-06-2005, 14:47
I guess the best evidence for what possibly happened to the Potter's house was revealed in OotP when Voldemort shot the AK at Dumbledore, it rebounded of the statue and hit the guards desk and the desk exploded into flames.
If James put up a valiant fight against Voldemort before he finally died, there was probably curses flying everywhere. AK doesn't mark the body, but when it doesn't hit it's intended target it seems to do much damage. Two or three missed AKs would be enough to destroy the house, and the one that rebounded off of Harry might have been extra potent because of Lily's protection and the power the Dark Lord knows not.
Fortescue
15-06-2005, 14:47
I guess the best evidence for what possibly happened to the Potter's house was revealed in OotP when Voldemort shot the AK at Dumbledore, it rebounded of the statue and hit the guards desk and the desk exploded into flames.
If James put up a valiant fight against Voldemort before he finally died, there was probably curses flying everywhere. AK doesn't mark the body, but when it doesn't hit it's intended target it seems to do much damage. Two or three missed AKs would be enough to destroy the house, and the one that rebounded off of Harry might have been extra potent because of Lily's protection and the power the Dark Lord knows not.
Yah I can see your point and perhaps the most compelling argument to support what happened - but to smash some statues versus destroy a house - that seems to be a lot of curses ...
I know what you are saying - the spell's execution and conclusion was very abnormal - but still I think there is more to the house being levelled than just a charmed, backfired spell ...
I think it is possible someone was trying to cover up - there was always the question of another person present - and as much as I can see both sides that say there was an wasnt - i just wonder if perhaps this is another 'hidden' clue we could all kick ourselves over?
Fortescue
16-06-2005, 14:46
Although it was never mentioned in the book, JKR said that Wormtail went into the house to get Voldemort's wand and robes. I wonder if he was there the entire time? The speculation that Snape was possibly there has been said, but If Wormtail was there with Voldemort, it's possible that James could have shot a few curses at him as well. I don't think she'd reveal to us that Wormtail was there if he had been any part of the confrontation, just so she could explain how Voldemort got his wand back. The way I took her comment was that Wormtail happened along after the Potter's were dead and Voldemort was gone.
Bellatrix mentioned that you have to really mean them, (the curses). Under the circumstances of that night, maybe there was a little more emotion behind the curses being used. It seems that Voldemort had more reasons to be at the Potter's then just to kill Harry. If James had faced Voldemort three times before and walked away, I'm sure that the curses were being conjured with a great deal of emotion behind them, possibly making their effect even more powerful and destructive.
Ana C.B.Rodrigues
24-04-2006, 14:39
Alright, well, to take the easiest way out -- we know the Killing Curse itself leaves no mark, but what about the backfired Killing Curse? It's not like its ever happened before so no proof unless someone asks JKR, but the result is much different from that of the Killing Curse, so what's to say there aren't any side effects, such as Harry's scar, or even a destroyed house. ;)
Otherwise, if we are going to go with someone else is there, what's to say there wasn't another Death Eater there helping Voldemort (not with the actual killing obviously, but with little servant-y type tasks). ;) I think there's a possibility that he brought some backup, not that he would need it, but just because.
I think this is a very good point. Harry is a really Powerfull wizard and so is Voldemort... that night there was too much power being released... and maybe ...when it backfired it also brought some of Harry's power...
or as one said it could be death eaters looking for what had happened to their master. Both theories suit the plot.:p
I hadn't read or heard that Wormtail went to Godric's Hollow to get Voldemort's wand and robes, but if we take this as fact then I think it's distinctly possible he blew up the house and reduced it to ruins.
Afterall, we know that when cornered by Sirius he 'blew apart the street with the wand behind his back'. The fact that it killed all within 20 feet of him suggests to me great destruction and I envisage the same at Godric's Hollow. maybe that's his spell by choice?
As to what motive he had for this I'm not sure, but it could have been to try to disguise the situation. Afterall, we know from Sirius that feelings towards him from the DEs captured in Azkaban was murderous. They believed it was him that had lead Voldemort to his downfall. Maybe this was his first attempt to trick the DEs into believing he'd been killed when the house was destroyed (if other DEs had known he went with Voldemort to show where the Potters were hidden) and he performed the same spell again when Sirius found him.....
This would also answer several other questions - like who let Dumbledore/Order know what had happened.
We know that Sirius went straight there after he realised Peter wasnt where he was suppose to be - yet we know Hagrid arrived and was under instruction from Dumbledore.
What this idea doesnt help with - why Black was accused for so long as being the person that lead Voldemort to the Potters - if Pettigrew had alerted Dumbledore, Dumbledore might have made the link.
I am always mindful of something JKR said once - Bellatrix and her fellow DE's were ordered to the Longbottoms by someone, and they were after the Longbottom parents and not Neville ... not sure but these seems to fit into here as well - whoever sent them after the Longbottoms sent them on the understanding that the Longbottoms had information on Voldemort's whereabouts!
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