View Full Version : How does Dumbledore know?
When reading PS/SS again I wondered when Harry got his first then subsequent letters from Hogwarts how did Dumbledore know the exact location of Harry. For instance, the first letter was sent to
Mr H Potter
The Cupboard under the Stairs
4 Privet Drive
Little Whinging
Surrey
The Dursleys were very disturbed by this and considered that they were probably being watched so they switch Harry to a bedroom upstairs. Which Dumbledore obviously knew about as his next letter was addressed to Harry but said The smallest bedroom.
How did Dumbledore know this? Is he having the house watched and if so by whom? Is it the same people the Ministry use to keep track of those doing magic or do they just keep watch over Harry?
I guess Dumbledore is just all-knowing. I mean he is one of the most powerful wizards in the world and he seems to know everything, even though he never tells people until they've figured things out themselves. Maybe he just can sense Harry.
perhaps he became invisible (he says he doesn't need a cloak to be invisible in PS/SS) and have been checking in on Harry during his years before Hogwarts.
MissWhizbee
18-11-2004, 16:35
Interesting question...I've been thinking along the same lines since re-reading for the chapter by chapter excercise. Maybe Ms Figg is keeping a close eye on things, or Dumbledore knows an animagus who is small enough to get into the Dursley's house to spy on them for him. Or maybe there is some magic on the letters themselves that Let Dumbledore know whether Harry has been able to read them or not and they have a tracking spell on them so they automatically address themselves to Harry where ever he might be.
just a few speculative thoughts for ya... ;)
I think the addressing of letters is a magical process in itself. Like all the letters that Harry sent to Sirius - There would have to be some sort of magical power for those to be delivered. He was constantly travelling around trying to avoid being caught and would have made it impossible to have a set location. Not to mention that most owls can't read - There would have to be something that lets them know where to go as well. Perhaps you just have to address it with a name and then magic does the rest.
Yet again just another good reason for Dumbledore to be an animagus... lol. I forgot about him being able to be invisible as well, thats interesting.
Tinkerbell
19-11-2004, 02:17
I like Roosters idea of the magical addressing of letters - perhaps there is a clue in the green ink that it used - perhaps this is a little like Rita Skeeter's quill which was green and which could be dictated to. Perhaps Dumbledore dictates to a quill also and does a type of incantation that finds the addressee!
I think it was used by JKR for a little humour and also to introduce us to the magical world in small steps - rather than a full on onslaught ...
It has to be magical ink rather than an all seeing Dumbledore ...
I liked the ink idea by Rooster :)
I just read something in CoS and thought I should put it here. The question is whether the ink is magic or if Dumbledore is all-knowing. I went for the latter, with nobody agreeing... Anyhow, quote from CoS:
" 'Letters from school', said Mr Weasley, passing Harry and Ron identical envolopes of yellowish parchment, addressed in green ink. 'Dumbledore already knows you're here, Harry - doesn't miss a trick, that man. You two've got them, too,' he added (...)"
I started leaving my all-knowing-DD theory when I saw your posts about the magic ink, although if there were such a thing as magic ink who knows exact locations of people - surely the Weasleys would know about it, since they're all wizards and witches and use magic all the time, and probably send letters now and again... In that case, why would Mr Weasley say that it is Dumbledore who knows exactly where Harry is?
Just a thought...
But then again, it doesn't say that the letter is addressed to Harry at the Burrow, it might just be delivered to Harry wherever he is. (like when Harry can send letters to Sirus trusting Hedwig to find him wherever he is). But Mr Weasley implies that DD knows...
I don't know, I'm confusing myself now...
Kingsley
22-11-2004, 12:31
Well I never really had an opinion of this one so I guess it is split into 2 theories
Either Dumbledore is all knowing and for the other letters -Sirius' address was blank and every owl just takes a longer time to find people
Or Arthur was just giving Dumbledore too much credit and owls always find people wherever they are
It does seem interesting that the address was specific for harry in book 1--are we to assume that if he the letter was sent during Aunt Marge's blowup in book 3 that it would have been adressed to the Knight Bus? or would it have changed in transit? :confused:
I have been thinking more on this and given what Ploki said about the green ink too. I remembered something JKR said about Wizards making themselves "unplottable" perhaps all wizards are plottable of where they are etc and that this magical ink knows it? Or most wizards can find people by plotting them on some magical map - a bit like a giant Mauraders Map?
I am sure Sirius would have made himself unplottable and that this was in fact what JKR was discussing when she mentioned it but I cannot remember where it was. Sorry :o
See, my major objection to the all seeing Dumbledore is that - well he should be all seeing ...
This means when Harry goes for his little adventures - Dumbledore should know - even where he went after the Portkey in GoF - as such he should have apparated after him.
Then - are we also to assume it is just the kids - or in fact anyone and everyone?
As such - he would know where Voldemort and the Death Eaters are etc.
I think this is too much power for one person to possess and it would also leave another hole in the plot - because theoretically Dumbledore could and would know where any of his students and indeed maybe the wizarding world - so we cast back to the famous night - couldnt he have tracked Voldemort on route?
I am just trying to expand the idea to see how well it fits ...
I don't think Dumbledore could have apparated after the port key in GoF because you can't apprarate or disapparate in the shcool grounds- also he would have had other matters (such as Krum and Fleur in the maze) to attend to.
When Sirius tells Harry to send letter to him, he says "Your owl will know where to find me" My opinion is that the owl has a kind of inner sense. Like Fawkes knew that Harry needed him in the CoS. I know he was loyal to Dumbledore and Pheonix's are not owls but still, it was like an inner sense to go and help. I know, that have a built in GPS.... :p (kidding!)
I can't remember, did Hermione have to address the letter to Krum?
OK, I went a bit off there! Dumbledore address' the letter to Harry in each specific room. Possible that Hedwig is relaying messages- not that quickly. Ok...
The letters also followed Harry out to the hut on the rocks where Hagrid first met him. Maybe the protection Dumbledore cast over Harry has them linked some how, so that Dumbledore can sense where ever Harry goes. Like the scar connects Harry to Voldemort and Harry feels pain whenever Voldy is happy or mad. Maybe Dumbledore has a tracking spell kind of thing on Harry.
Maybe Voldemort didn't even give Harry the scar. Maybe after Voldemort attacked him and disappeared, Dumbledore gave him the scar, to keep Harry linked to them both (not a triangle link though coz then Harry isn't necessary). Dumbledore said he could have taken the scar away, didn't he?
I agree with Kaz, Dumbledore's spell that he put on Harry for him to stay at the Dursely's could also have linked them together. Dumbledore knows how important Harry is to the prophecy. Off topic - After hearing that Lily and James were killed, and Harry survived, Dumbledore prolly sent Hagrid there so he could go to Neville and cast a protective spell on him. What if he thought Voldemort would go after both of them? In PS/SS, Dumbledore knew Hermione had cast a spell on Neville so they could sneak out. Do we really think they told him that?
I think Dumbledore knows what both Harry and Neville are up to.
Fortescue
12-04-2005, 01:22
It was explained that when a child with magic is born there is a magic quill that enters the child’s name in the Hogwarts book. That would have to be a very powerful quill - maybe it's the same quill that addresses the envelopes for the school.
Dumbledore has admitted he can become invisible without a cloak, and he told Harry he has watched him more closely than he can have imagined. I'd like to think that Dumbledore popped in on Harry at the Dursley's now and then over the years to see how he was coming along. Someone mentioned Mrs. Figg watching Harry, but I don't think she has any power to become invisible or watch Harry unnoticed.
As for the owls knowing where to deliver the letters to - I think they have an internal tracking system. In OotP, Harry addressed a letter to Snuffles – then he whispered to Hedwig that it was actually for Sirius, so it's the owls that know where to go to deliver their letters.
Good point about Dumbledore being invisible whenever he wants without the cloak. I like the idea that he would have popped in on Harry every once in awhile . . . must have been so hard on him to see the way that the Dursleys were treating him. I wonder that he didn't send Petunia another letter or something in the meantime to remedy some of the mistreatment Harry was getting.
Fortescue
13-04-2005, 13:09
Good point about Dumbledore being invisible whenever he wants without the cloak. I like the idea that he would have popped in on Harry every once in awhile . . . must have been so hard on him to see the way that the Dursleys were treating him. I wonder that he didn't send Petunia another letter or something in the meantime to remedy some of the mistreatment Harry was getting.
I've thought of that as well - Dumbledore becoming invisible and watching Harry as he grew. I don't think he would have interfered because Harry had to have his "safe place" to stay in the summer, and Dumbledore knew that he couldn't risk upsetting the Dursley's by reprimanding them for their treatment of Harry. I'm sure he would have been upset, but Harry wasn't being physically harmed, just mentally and emotionally. I can't wait though, I believe Dumbledore will have his say with the Dursley's before it's all said and done. I'm counting on it :D
See, my major objection to the all seeing Dumbledore is that - well he should be all seeing ...
Dumbledore isn't all-seeing - he's very smart and powerful, but he doesn't have seer blood - he makes too many mistakes for that. I think he's a lot more 'human' than he's given credit for - he's just such an impressive presence, it's easy to be misled into the theory that he should or would know everything.
When reading OotP yesterday, I also noticed that when Dumbledore sent the Howler to Petunia, it was addressed to her in the kitchen. So, again, he appears to know exactly where she is. Also, it said, "Remember my last," which he apparently knew would force her to keep Harry with them.
So, another question comes up - did he know that Vernon had just threatened to force Harry out of the house and so sent the letter to Petunia? Or did he just guess that Vernon or Petunia would think about putting Harry on the street and sent the Howler as a precaution? The way it was worded, it's like he knew exactly what was happening . . . so, he does seem to be keeping a very close watch on Harry and what happens in that house at Number 4 . . .
Fortescue
21-06-2005, 19:06
When reading OotP yesterday, I also noticed that when Dumbledore sent the Howler to Petunia, it was addressed to her in the kitchen. So, again, he appears to know exactly where she is. Also, it said, "Remember my last," which he apparently knew would force her to keep Harry with them.
So, another question comes up - did he know that Vernon had just threatened to force Harry out of the house and so sent the letter to Petunia? Or did he just guess that Vernon or Petunia would think about putting Harry on the street and sent the Howler as a precaution? The way it was worded, it's like he knew exactly what was happening . . . so, he does seem to be keeping a very close watch on Harry and what happens in that house at Number 4 . . .
I just began to read the series again to prepare for book 6, (or in anticipation you might say ) :) OotP is my all-time fav - I can't wait until I get there :D
Dumbledore tells Harry in the chapter The Lost Prophecy that he thought Petunia needed reminding of her agreement to keep Harry as that was what had kept him alive for the past fourteen years. He said he knew that the dementor attack might show the Dursley's the danger of having Harry as a surrogate son. (I love that chapter)
In HBP, I hope we find out how much Dumbledore has watched Harry, and I hope he makes an appearance at the Dursley's and tells them off for the way they treat Harry.
I think Dumbledore knows a lot simply because he's an old-fashioned eavesdropper in his invisible form. However he becomes invisible will come to light and we will all be going, Oh yeah, that makes sense. :D
See, this is why I need to read ahead before I post. I get so excited about something that ends up being cleared up later in the story.
I do hope we find out how Dumbledore can be invisible. And what he's been doing with it. I don't think all of his knowledge comes simply from guessing correctly how people will react in certain situations.
As for the CoS letter Harry gets in the Burrow, I think that Dumbledore might have heard from Mrs. Figg that Harry left. She might have been awake or woke up because of the car flying through the air and let him know. Just an idea.
Fortescue
22-06-2005, 13:39
As for the CoS letter Harry gets in the Burrow, I think that Dumbledore might have heard from Mrs. Figg that Harry left. She might have been awake or woke up because of the car flying through the air and let him know. Just an idea.
That's a possibility. It could be too that Dumbledore went to check on Harry, as I believe that he did many times over the years while Harry was at the Dursley's. Harry was locked in his room after the pudding incident for three days - he was at the Burrow for a week when the Hogwarts letters came. It could be during those 10 or so days that Dumbledore chose to check up on Harry, invisibly of course, and found him gone. (This is just my idea -- I'd like to think that Dumbledore cares enough for Harry to pop into the Dursley's from time to time just to see how he's getting along. ) :D
I wonder if that scene doesn't go back to how the owls know where people are even if they leave one place and go to another. In the movie it was shown that Harry's letter came in the envelope with all the Weasley childrens, but in the book he got his own envelope. In the book Mr. Weasley mentioned that Dumbledore already knew that Harry was in the Burrow, but wouldn't the owl deliver his letter wherever Harry was at the time?
Am I the only one that seems concerned that Dumbledore could be invisible and sneaking around everyone for such a long time?
Indeed - isnt it just plain creepy that we never had it come out and be said that Dumbledore is practicing this?
I would even go to say it is so clandestine to have a skill where you could be invisible and just wonder around places with no-one seeing you ...
It just doesnt seem right - and I would want to make sure the person that had that skill was honest and upfront in the use of it ... ;)
There is a reason Dumbledore can track everyone - just have to ask yourself the motivations ;)
Kingsley
24-06-2005, 13:38
It is all perspective--to some DD seems liek a great protector with that skill--to me it just seems like Big Brother is watching--or super old wizard stalker at Hogwarts
I can think of plenty of things that I would do if I were invisible and few of them seem noble
Fortescue
24-06-2005, 13:43
Dumbledore has a huge responsibility, not only to watch out over Harry, but to keep track of others and their actions and to know what's going on around him and Hogwarts. I can only assume that the fact he can be invisible would be a great benefit to gaining information when needed. It does seem odd though, if he can be invisible, why would he need Snape to spy on Voldemort's operation when Dumbledore could easily do it himself?
I don't think I'd call it creepy. I imagine it would be something you'd get used to, just like Harry has gotten used to the knowledge that there are at least two people at Hogwarts who can read his every thought. That would give me the creeps more than knowing a sweetheart like Dumbledore was maintaining his awareness of things.
If he was stealth and shared his experiences openly - I would see your arguement ...
But, and as the book seems to show at the moment, that he does it with no communication - that would seem subversive and some might say he was taking away their human right to privacy etc ...
The skill of being invisble would be clandestine and subversive if a person never fessed up to owning it or even telling people ... because it can be used for means that arent always honerable ...
This isnt another perpetuation of DiE - it is just simplistic - when someone possesses a skill such as this and never declares he has it - it is going to make people feel very uncomfortable as to how the person is using this ...
Fortescue
26-06-2005, 10:53
If he was stealth and shared his experiences openly - I would see your arguement ...
But if he went around telling everyone he could become invisible and let them know every time he spotted them doing something while invisible, wouldn't that defeat the purpose of being able to be invisible? He told Harry he could do it in PS/SS, so it's not like he's been hiding the fact he can become invisible without a cloak. I just don't think it would be a very effective tool if everyone knew you could do it. I'm sure the other teachers know since Dumbledore was the Transfiguration teacher and as with McGonagall, he probably showed his talent to his students.
But, and as the book seems to show at the moment, that he does it with no communication - that would seem subversive and some might say he was taking away their human right to privacy etc ...
The skill of being invisble would be clandestine and subversive if a person never fessed up to owning it or even telling people ... because it can be used for means that arent always honerable ...
I think it was Patton that said, "war is hell." I'm sure the ability to become invisible would be an excellent weapon in a war. Subversive? Not if it's used for the right purpose, which we know Dumbledore is on the side of good and not evil, so I have no problem with his judgment regarding when he would use that talent. As I said before, he told Harry in Harry's first year he could become invisible without a cloak, so it seems it's not a top secret thing that he's trying to hide from everyone - he just doesn't announce it to the entire school.
This isnt another perpetuation of DiE - it is just simplistic - when someone possesses a skill such as this and never declares he has it - it is going to make people feel very uncomfortable as to how the person is using this ...
I don't think Dumbledore would use his talent for invisiblity to sneak into the girls shower room or anything - I'd expect that would be something more that Harry or Ron would do while going through their teenage hormone things ;) Toss on the invisibility cloak and take a stroll through the girls showers - sounds more like something Fred and George might do, but not Dumbledore :rolleyes:
(I would really like to do the DiE thing with you Blaise - it would probably be quite fun :p I just don't see him as subversive or evil - he is one of my favorites - I could do the DiE thing about Snape, but then it would be the SiE :D )
If you see it or not - there is an interpretation of his actions and words that could be seen in both lights ...
As I said I didn't offer this as DiE material - just simply that the skill he has would be better served spying on Voldemort and DE's - but yet he sends Snape to do it ...
I think there is a contradiction between intent and action - and the practical uses of this skill don't seem to being applied by Dumbledore ...
Fortescue
26-06-2005, 15:31
If you see it or not - there is an interpretation of his actions and words that could be seen in both lights ...
As I said I didn't offer this as DiE material - just simply that the skill he has would be better served spying on Voldemort and DE's - but yet he sends Snape to do it ...
I think there is a contradiction between intent and action - and the practical uses of this skill don't seem to being applied by Dumbledore ...
While reading PoA again I came across something that made me possibly bend a bit towards your train of thought - but it could also be a simple explanation as to why Dumbledore doesn't use his invisibility to spy on Voldemort.
At the beginning of the book, when all the students are in the great hall for the feast, Dumbledore tells the students about the dementors guarding the entrances to the castle and the fact that they can see through Invisibility Cloaks - a remark that was obviously directed at Harry. Later, Ron suggests the use of the cloak so Harry can go to Hogsmeade and Hermione reminds them of what Dumbledore said - that dementors can see through Invisibility Cloaks. Now, how would Dumbledore know that if he hadn't had experience with a similar situation with dementors?
It's possible that Dumbledore had tried to spy on Voldemort and was spotted by the dementors in his invisible form. I think back to the Dumbledore's Animagus thread where Gini's suggested that Dumbledore could be a Demiguise. It would surely explain how Dumbledore would know that dementors could see through Invisibility Cloaks as they are made out of the hair from a Demiguise. Dumbledore would not be able to spy on Voldemort under those circumstances, and it would also account for Dumbledore's negative feelings about dementors and his refusal to allow them inside the castle.
It would help if we had any clues as to what Snape might turn into and how he does his spying. Possibly, whatever way he spies or whatever form he takes is beneficial under the circumstances.
Interesting observation there ...
I know the Dementors arent exactly the most friendly things in the world - but Dumbledore does seem to loath them a great deal.
So going along with the point you made from Gini and your thoughts - yeah I can see it.
I suppose that Voldemort doesnt know this - otherwise he would have a Dementor with him at all times to ensure that Dumbledore wasnt just lurking in the shadows.
Fortescue
01-07-2005, 15:25
I guess my thought is that Voldemort is one of those people that Dumbledore doesn't want to know of his talent. Maybe that's why he only tells those closest to him - those he can trust. But then, since Dumbledore had said he was Tom Riddle's Transfiguration teacher fifty years ealier, if Dumbledore did display his transfiguration talents to the class, then Voldemort would already know and the weapon of invisibility would become useless. Maybe that's one of the reasons Voldemort called the Dementors back to him as soon as he could no longer hide the fact that he was back....to help watch for Dumbledore.
HarryPotter80000
15-01-2006, 03:48
Interesting question...I've been thinking along the same lines since re-reading for the chapter by chapter excercise. Maybe Ms Figg is keeping a close eye on things, or Dumbledore knows an animagus who is small enough to get into the Dursley's house to spy on them for him. Or maybe there is some magic on the letters themselves that Let Dumbledore know whether Harry has been able to read them or not and they have a tracking spell on them so they automatically address themselves to Harry where ever he might be.
just a few speculative thoughts for ya... ;)
yeah i like the idea on Mrs figg tellin DD about what has happened to harry because everytime harry would need her as a babysitter harry aunt and uncle would have to tell her things or somethi like that
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