View Full Version : Who Changed the Portkey?
Weasleyfanforever
21-09-2004, 13:47
When Harry and Cedric were transported to the graveyard via the Triwizard Cup Portkey... Harry also used it to return to Hogwarts...
Who set the Portkey to return ??
How did the wands shadows know it would take Harry back ??
Could it been one of the Death Eaters there, that is actually a double agent working for the Order? (i.e. Snape?)
Kingsley
30-09-2004, 14:28
I always assumed it was the ghosts or Snape but i gave it some more thought--
remember in book 1 when Ollivander said Lily was good at charms--well in theory she could become good enough to not need a wand right?
it is possible she did some kind of reverse spell on the portkey
Just an idea i had--in case there is anyone with an anti Snape complex :rolleyes:
as far as the other ghosts--james is too obvious
PrettyMS.Potter
30-09-2004, 16:24
Wow! I have to say Snape. :eek: I know, but a it could have been Lily. I will stay with the double agent thing. Snape must of done something with the portkey with Harry and Vold were going at it. Especially when the encantaion happened between the two wands.
The Laughing Imp
30-09-2004, 21:47
When Harry and Cedric were transported to the graveyard via the Triwizard Cup Portkey... Harry also used it to return to Hogwarts...
Who set the Portkey to return ??
How did the wands shadows know it would take Harry back ??
Could it been one of the Death Eaters there, that is actually a double agent working for the Order? (i.e. Snape?)
This is a good question. :)
I'm going to guess that a) portkeys can be one way or two way and that the cup was a two way portkey that simply brought Harry back. If portkeys always return to their point of origin, then the adult shadows would have known this. Or b) Crouch/Moody charmed the cup to be a two way portkey so that once Voldemort had his fun with Harry he could send Harry's corpse back as a highly dramatic mystery. Voldemort likes to use fear as a form of terror that aids his purposes. Remember, he didn't want anybody to know he was back. So Harry showing up dead would have upset the wizarding world, but the mystery of the death of the "Boy Who Lived" would have struck fear into their hearts, thus serving Voldemort's purposes.
The Order was reassembled only because Harry came back with news that Voldemort was alive. Besides, if the Order had been aware of Voldemort's plan to kill Harry, Dumbledore would never have allowed Harry to touch the cup. In fact, the moment it was charmed the whole Order would have grabbed ahold of it to give Voldemort a charming little home coming party.
So although your question is a good one, I don't believe there was any skullduggery involved on the part of the Order. I fear that a more mundane explanation might satisfy the question.
I keep shooting down comments you make. You're going to start hating me soon. LOL I hope you won't take it personally. I really enjoy the mental jolt some of these questions are giving me.
BTW, I did some research on portkeys over at the Harry Potter Lexicon and found the following:
Portkey (GF6, GF10, GF32, GF34, OP7, OP36)
A Portkey is an enchanted object, often a piece of supposedly worthless junk, which when touched will transport a person to a preprogrammed location. An object can be transformed into a Portkey by the Portus spell, but the caster must be authorized to do so. The Portkey Office is part of the Department of Magical Transport at the Ministry of Magic.
Nowhere in this description or in the description of the Portus spell is the portkey defined as a one way or two way portal. So there is still a mystery here, but perhaps only one of ignorance to the inner workings of Jo's wonderful world.
Kingsley
01-10-2004, 10:21
If it was two way--why wouldnt they just touch it again before Cedric got killed--instead Cedric had the idea of them getting out their wands prepared for the unknown
Tinkerbell
01-10-2004, 11:41
Good point Kingsley! However, did they not move forward, away from the Cup, thinking that perhaps this was still part of the Tournament, so did not immediately think to return?
I think that the Cup was a "return ticket" as it were, and that Crouch/Moody had made it that way, perhaps not just to send Harry's body back, but perhaps for Voldemort to return to Hogwarts and reek havoc!
I think you will find that Portkeys are a one way deal - in GoF and the World Cup after people appeared after using a portkey, they were thrown into a box to be reused - and gives the impression it is a one way deal, I am sure this is re-iterated in OoTP somewhere but dont ask me to find the reference ...
All portkeys we have seen used so far are single use and support the quasi fact they are a one way deal!
And also agreed with Kingsley point - if this one was charmed for a return, I am sure Harry would have picked it up ... if indeed it is know some portkey are used for a return journey!
So sorry Imp, you might have to expand your mind on this one;)
For me, said it before and say it again, it is most likely to be a Death Eater and of that, my Fav, One Severus Snape:)
Everyone was distracted by the event of Harry & Voldemort fighting, this was perfect for a DE to go 'portus' up the cup again:)
I have to wonder, if it *was* Snape, how did James know it would return Harry to Hogwarts?
He says to Harry, "you must get to the Portkey, it will return you to Hogwarts." So, I see it as either he knew that Portkeys can be two-way - perhaps in case you forget something and need to get back, or that Lily (I like this idea by the way) charmed it somehow.
But, how would Lily know what object to charm? Would she have had time to charm it? She would have needed to look around, find the object, charm it. And then, how did James know it was "the Portkey?" If Lily could just charm any object, she would have done something a lot closer . . .
Do you think that the ghosts in Voldemort's wand could somehow talk to each other? Like Cedric died and then he told Harry's parents what happened so they knew how he and Harry had gotten to where they were and Lily would then know which object to charm?
Good questions, everyone.
Weasleyfanforever
07-10-2004, 18:55
Dumbledore said that the things that came out of Voldemort's wand had been shadows of thepeople they were, so I am not entirely sure that any of them would have been able to charm the object. I think that perhaps either James or Lily saw the person that changed the portkey do it, so they knew that it was going to take Harry back to Hogwarts. I personally think it was Snape that changed it, but I am assuming that Lily or James would have said that it was Snape that changed it back, if they were able to see his face, but they wouldn't have been able to, as all of the Death Eaters wear masks...
Wheezy is indeed correct, they were 'shadows' of the victims, not the ghosts or other entities ...
As far as sanctioned beings - I don't think they were more than a result of clever magic - powerful but clever but not much else ...
I really think looking at where we have seen port keys mentioned, they are one way deals - as in you use them and then discard before you place Portus back on them to activate another trip ...
The cup seems to have had Portus performed on it by someone who was full in body - and assumption high I would say that the shadows saw who it was and knew they were trying to help - and the natural assumption that wherever the cup was being pointed towards, it would have been safety ... in the situation Harry was in it isn't likely the person that did it was looking to place Harry into anymore trouble, like hello where else could Harry have gone and been in more danger!
Kreacher
08-10-2004, 14:43
Wormtail/Peter Pettigrew owes Harry.
Harry did not allow Sirius and Lupin to kill Pettigrew. I believe it was then mentioned later that they were connected because of this act, and now Peter is destined to repay Harry by saving his life.
So, Petter Pettigrew arranged the port key for Harry to return to Hogwats, thus having saved his life.
Just a guess....
Kreacher ;)
I am seeing your logic on that one but feel that life debt hasnt been paid yet and if Pettigrew had done that it was akin to saving Harry's life and as such the debt is paid ...
I also think he wouldn't have the intelligence or bravery to slip away during the fight to do it ...
Still all the same it should be considered but I just feel that life debt will be paid later on ..
Weasleyfanforever
31-10-2004, 20:10
OK, I wasn't sure where to put this as I couldn't really find an appropriate place, but this discussion is very close to my idea. Many of us have been wondering if Snape was in fact at the Grave Yard the nigt that Voldemort was returned to his body, and how he got there. Well, I think we have been majorly overlooking something that woul be quite easy, and is allowed inside the grounds of Hogwarts. Think, How did Harry and Cedric get to the Grave Yard? A Port Key! Snape could have hid in the bushes, grabbed anything, changed it to a Port Key, and travelled that way! I can't believe that I never thought of this before, it just hit me that this would be the easiest, fastest way for him to get there...
Yah, that works as well! :D
In fact - looking at that anybody could have slipped into the party and changed the portkey to return - cast a little portus on the cup and then apparate away - the events that were unfolding would mean the focus of the crowd was away from anything other than Harry and Voldemort ...
Personally, I am really torn - I still feel Snape was there when he was called like a good DE ... but I also like him as most faithful servant at Hogwarts ... the dilemma!
But portkey idea is good Wheezy!
Weasleyfanforever
08-11-2004, 22:12
I am really thinking that only Barty Crouch Jr. could have been the "Most Faithful" at Hogwarts.
"The Dark Lord didn't manage to kill you. Potter, and he so wanted to," whispered Moody. "Imagine how he will reward me when he finds I have done it for him. I gave you to him - the thing he needed above all to regenerate - and then I killed you for him. I will be honored beyond all other Death Eaters. I will be his dearest, his closest supporter . . . closer than a son. ..."
Crouch Jr. really sees himself as the most faithful, and if he would have thought at all that there was a chance that he would die during any of the time that he was at Hogwarts, I don't think he would have spoke like this. He is a very smart, cunning man, and I think that if he sensed that this was a suicide mission, he would have still done it proudly, but he would not have spoken this way....
I am still really liking the portkey idea, but it almost seems too easy. Grab a branch, "Portus" go to the Circle, change the other portkey whilst no one is looking, then go back to the school. I don't know, it may be too easy, but I still like it :D
Once again, it is a good counter - I like it ... but the arrogance in him, his pride in what he was doing would have made him speak like that - he might have been just living in a dream state - perhaps he realy did believe it ...
In fact it would be consistant ... I think Voldemort would ahve given him all that spiel just to make him feel really rewarded - but I think deep down Voldemort knew he wouldnt be coming back ... you dont screw with Dumbledore under his nose and walk away ... unless you are Snape :)
Just trying to offer a few other thoughts and counters ... as I said I am really torn on the whole thing about the changed portkey and who was back at hogwarts .... Crouch looked like the one JKR was eluding to - but check out her World Book day chat comments - you will see it isnt a straight black and white - she mentions a few places have got it right - that means if it was straight forward, she woudl have answered so - or just wouldnt be a question because we all assumed what she wrote to be true ...
MissWhizbee
09-11-2004, 15:26
Well, I think we all know that I'm a big supporter of the Evil Snape theory. hehe :D So, with that in mind I think that Voldemort knew full well that Crouch Jr wouldn't be coming back to him. I also think it is very plausible that although Crouch Jr was very clever he probably wasn't all there mentally. He was in Azkaban for a long while and then under the imperius curse for years. I don't think you come away from that unscathed and so his expectations of how things were going to end where probably far different than what would reasonably be expected to happen.
Also, the quote "I will be his dearest, his closest supporter . . . closer than a son. ..." suggests that he himself knows that he currently is not the dearest, closest supporter of the dark lord. So, I wonder who is ;) .
As for the port key. I have been fond of the theory of the returning port key having been set up by Crouch Jr. for a while. I think that it is plausible that port keys can go both ways. We have always seen them in circumstances where they have not needed to go both ways in a close proximitiy of time, but if Voldemort was planning on sending Harry's body back to Hogwarts or perhaps going to hogwarts himself with his DEs after he had killed Harry to reak havoc on the unsuspecting school and perhaps be able to catch dumbledore off guard and kill him and any of the other higher ups in the ministry who were present, then a returning port key might make sense. Especially if you run a risk of being detected every time you do the portus charm. Since you are supposed to have permission to do the charm wouldn't there be a way to tell if people were doing it when they weren't supposed to (sort of like underage wizardry). So instead of doing the charm twice and risk being detected twice, they could have just done it once and made it a 2way port key. We aren't told anywhere that port keys don't go both ways, so I don't see a problem with it.
Your second point I have issues on - as I said previously all the JKR writings talk of a port key being a one way trip - I have never seen a two way portkey (cue CTS to prove me wrong :D ) ...
I like the rational behind that first point - Crouch Jnr wasnt all there and I think that allowed Voldemort moreso to send him on this one way trip - on the basis he was never going to return - clearing the way for an implication on who the most loyal is ... and as I said above - if the answer was so obvious - why did JKR provide the answer she did when asked?
Kingsley
29-11-2004, 12:27
So are you back to believing it was Snape?
I have always thought maybe the ghost could have said a charm or incantation
Snaoe would have had to pretend he wasnt there when DD sent him on the mission at the end
I think the spirits are the only real option
Of course Snape could have done it but he wouldnt have been able to disapparate :confused:
On the subject of Portkeys - I agree that they are one way now that I have seen the other posts. Especially the one about the World Cup - if they were set to go back, the guy who grabbed them would have been sent back to the hill.
Also, think about the Muggle-proofing. I think Portkeys only go one way so that when the object is discarded, it does not retain its abilities or that could create some real problems with people randomly picking them up and then disappearing!
I think someone must have helped in the sense of changing it back to Hogwarts, but again, I have no idea who it could be! I'm sure we'll find out . . .
Well, just for a little diversification on this - what if it was him?
I often wonder if Harry finds out the way Voldemort did his steps long ago - and perhaps took a few himself?
I know it is a little out there - but was a touch convienient that the portkey was reset back to safety and not sure the shadows could have messed with it - look at Voldemort when he lost his body ... it required someone with physical form and a wand ...
Tough one... I agree that portkeys are one way trips - as we are told this in the book, so it has to be someone in the graveyard. I dont think it would be Pettigrew - too small a task for repayment of having his life spared by H. He is a scared man, and I feel he will pass a warning to H rather than physically assist when his life is in danger - surely a life for a life would have meant Pettegrew helping H at an earlier stage in the graveyard.
Snape - I really cant decide if he is good / bed. I tend to feel he is more good, and I dont think he would have gone to the graveyard (even if he is a double agent), if he is a good wizard now, he would remain at Hogwarts for protection of his life - going to meet volde would surely be the beginning of his end - and we know he was a bit of a sad kid at school. If he is still a DE, surely there would be more disruption / murders etc at Hogwarts. So no, I dont think it was him.
If anyone was aware that the cup became a portkey at the ttrwizard event, they couldnt have followed it to the graveyard could they??? They wouldnt have known where it was going (unless they arranged for it with Barty jnr).
It has to be someone at the graveyard that night, who - I dont know.
I think if Pettigrew wanted to save Harry's life he would have ensured that Harry was never there ... he knew that Voldemort wanted to use him - as per first chapter of GoF - and he did try to get Voldemort to use someone else ... but also Voldemort was still weak and reliant on Pettigrew - so ultimatly he could have stopped him if he wanted to.
Voldemort called back all his DE's - and then makes the famous speech - I am actually torn if Snape was there or not - I always assumed he was but now question that recently based on a few people's comments ...
I still feel he stood the best chance and also had the motivation to try and help Harry - and we know he is a spy so could have been there ... could have!
So - who else?
Well I dont think JKR would pull a suprise DE to be on the other side - the only well known one would have been Malfoy ... and just dont think he would - he really hated Potter after what happened in CoS ...
Interesting - I really hope JKR addresses this one at some point!
Weasleyfanforever
05-12-2004, 23:00
I think if Pettigrew wanted to save Harry's life he would have ensured that Harry was never there ... he knew that Voldemort wanted to use him - as per first chapter of GoF - and he did try to get Voldemort to use someone else ... but also Voldemort was still weak and reliant on Pettigrew - so ultimatly he could have stopped him if he wanted to.
I have to agree with Blaise here. Peter could have stopped Voldemort from getting his body back all together, and he didn't do that, so I just can't see him changing the portkey back. I don't think he has the nerve to help Harry right in front of Voldemort, right after he has gotten his body back.
I really, really want the person that changed the Port Key back to be Snape. I think it is a good possibility that he did. I think if he had not been at the Circle that night, it would have meant that he couldn't return as a DE, and we are 99% sure that he is still a DE spy, or double spy, what have you. This is really out there, but what if Snape can make himself invisible, like Dumbledore can, without a cloak. It would have been easy for him to make himself invisible in the pandemonium, change back the Port Key, and either become visible again, or go back to Hogwarts with Harry, and Harry not even knowing he was there...
Ummm - not sure that is a little out there :p
I dont think Snape would have resisted the temptation to be invisible in the books so far ... he really would have used it as well - especially when tracking Potter!
Are we right do you think to discount the likes of Malfoy from this puzzle?
I know he seems to really hate and loath Harry - but who better to do a mega twist ...
My other fav here is the man with magic no-one really understands - Dumbledore ... but some how that would be wild speculation ... :o
Weasleyfanforever
06-12-2004, 21:48
I have heard theories that Malfoy is really a good guy, and that he is in the best position to undermine Voldemort, but one would think that if he were a good guy, he wouldn't have given the diary to Ginny in CoS. He would have been able to stop an attempt at LV rising again, and he didn't...
I think Dumbledore being the one that changed the portkey wouldn't be so far off. We know that he has the ability to make himself invisible without the use of a invisibility cloak, and we assume that he has done it before without Harry noticing that he was there (while looking at the Mirror of Erised.) Also, who was nearest, and I Am assuming first to Harry when he arrives back from the Graveyard? :
Then a pair of hands seized him roughly and turned him over.
"Harry! Harry!”
He opened his eyes.
He was looking up at the starry sky, and Albus Dumbledore was crouched over him. The dark shadows of a crowd of people pressed in around them, pushing nearer; Harry felt the ground beneath his head reverberating with their footsteps.
Harry feels someone grab him and flip him over, then he opens his eyes to see Dumbledore. It would have been very easy for Dumbledore to become visible again, and shake Harry awake. Perhaps the glint in Dumbledore's eyes later in the book is from his remembering the scene. He looks at Harry's arm, because he was not close enough to see where they actually took the blood from, and he almost instantly knows what Harry is talking about when he explains Priori Incantatem.
My view on this would be that Dumbledore was invisible inside the maze, making sure no one was badly injured, watching over the events. He was poised by the Cup in case someone cheated if there was a close call, and he when Cedric and Harry grabbed the Cup, he did as well. It might have been his intention to reveal himself, but then the Cup was found to be a port key. I think this could be why Dumbledore believes Harry's story. Dumbledore is not stupid, it could have been because he was there....
kausarqadir
05-03-2005, 11:35
My view on this would be that Dumbledore was invisible inside the maze, making sure no one was badly injured, watching over the events. He was poised by the Cup in case someone cheated if there was a close call, and he when Cedric and Harry grabbed the Cup, he did as well. It might have been his intention to reveal himself, but then the Cup was found to be a port key. I think this could be why Dumbledore believes Harry's story. Dumbledore is not stupid, it could have been because he was there....
i dont agree with you WFF on this topic. because that must have been such an auspicious occassion for the school and hosting school's headmaster is missing!! obviously everyone can see that. and dumbledore is not a personality not to be missed easily.
secondly, my first thoughts were for the ghost/ shadows of harry's parents. but snape is also a good one. no i wont vote for peter, because if he wanted to pay the debt, he would have shown it to potter.
another thing, i just felt, that its good to discuss here.
in Gof they said, they have to be careful with the materials used as portkeys, so that muggles wouldnt go picking them up.
and also, arthur said, that portkeys are objects used to transport wizards from one place to another at a prearranged time.
if that's so, then y do they have to be careful with the materials where muggles are concerned.
also, then for the cup. if its already Pre arranged time, then how did moody know at what time harry is going to touch it.
because i also remember, amos diggory picked up the portkey and said, yes i have got it. now everyone should come closer and touch it. one finger will do....
this means that at that particular minute...... prearranged.
then what abt the cup in the labyrinth and in the graveyard too.....
Kingsley
30-03-2005, 13:46
wow--but ok
1st I think the trophy/portkey was for a prearranged period--the graveyard escape--that was changed in advance or it was always for a return trip--if it was changed in front of the ghosts--that is how they saw it--but if it was always setuo for a return trip--the ghosts would have to be all knowing--or Bertha heard the info before her death
Once again we have to refer to past - and a porkey being done after a trip ...
We saw them being discarded after use at the World Cup - as such I think unless someone used Portus on the cup again - it wasnt going anywhere ...
We can only judge on the past instances and I dont think to my knowledge we have seen a two way portkey - we have seen them discarded after one use.
Interesting point about the prearranged time. Perhaps there are different spells to use - one that simply makes the Portkey a portkey for the first person to touch it and one that is for a specified time. It makes sense that there might be different ways of using the Portkeys.
Of course, this still doesn't tell us who changed it back . . . I wonder if we will ever find out because we haven't heard anything in OotP and that makes me worried that we never will. Also, Voldemort hasn't seemed to be angry about that or seek retribution for it, so perhaps he wasn't that surprised that it was a Portkey again (or perhaps this is evidence that they can go two ways - but then why would Moody make it a two-way Portkey?) Was Voldemort planning on using it to go back to Hogwarts and make a scene?
I personally think that the prearranged times were for a highly organised event where there were going to be many many people arriving. This portkey, however, was only needed to transport one person, whenever they touched it. As we know, 'Moody' was helping Harry throughout the tournament to make sure he touched it. He admitted to turning the cup into a portkey, but really doesn't specify when. He could have been watching with his magical eye, yet powerless to stop Cedric going too.
As for Wormtail changing it back to a portkey...that isn't exactly saving Harry's life. It is prolonging it. Wormtail could change himself into a rat without words, he could most likely activate a portkey. Considering he went to where Cedric's body lay to retrieve Harry's wand...
And Snape, well, we don't know for sure that he was there. Just looking at that passage where the DE is addressed, Voldemort says he has one too cowardly to return (I am guessing Karkaroff) and 'one who I believe has left me for ever...he will be killed...' Could he mean Snape? Because that means he could not have changed the portkey.
Kingsley
06-04-2005, 15:39
There are a few threads set aside for the identities of the mssing death eaters, but for those of us who beleive Snape was there--believe he changed the portkey--someone did--unless we can start speculatin about spirits being powerful enough for magic--Nick and Peeves never did any spells right
Ok I know-Voldemort changed it back to give Harry a sportin chance :D
I have been reading...
To activate a portkey, the spell is simply 'portus' (Dumbledore's office, OotP)
There was no time specified on this portkey either.
Going by this passage, someone would have to be close to the object, but not necessarily touch it, to activate the portkey.
As none of the DE except Wormtail actually went near the cup, I have to say it was him that did it. BUT BUT BUT here is the hard part...The portkey DD activates trembles and glows with an odd blue light. So I ask, why did nobody notice this happening to the cup if someone did change it once they were there?
I could, of course, go and read through the battle again and see if there is something mentioned...which I will. Then I will come back and give an aye or nay. Meanwhile, continue discussing!!
After re-reading it, there is no sign of the portkey being reactivated. Between Wormtail fetching the wand and Harry touching the cup, nothing!
I did note however that yes, the shadows seemed to know it would work, and Harry himself seemed surprised that it worked - he felt the jerk behind his navel which meant the portkey had worked - like he had almost doubted it would.
Wormtail could have done it with Harry's own wand.
None of the other DE would have paid attention to him, because they see him as a frightened little rat (yes, I mad that pun on purpose) who would only do as he is told. None of them know he is in debt to Harry.
I don't think it was Snape. Wasn't he still there when Harry got back- as far as I can tell, he only left when Dumbledore asked him to go.
I dont think it was Dumbledore- I can't imagine Dumbledore staying invisible and letting Voldemort take his blood and putting him through so much.
I agree that Peter wouldn't have had the guts to reset the port key under Voldemorts and the DE noses- he has yet to redeem himself with the DE's and to frightened to defy V just yet.
I don't think there is too much to it, I think we are to assume that it was a 2 way port key. But then, maybe that's what JK wants us to think :rolleyes:
Kingsley
08-04-2005, 06:56
The 2 way portkey is out of the question though---just because it hasnt happened before and portkeys arent setup that way
Snape was there after we noticed that Dumbledore was grabbing Harry and his eyes were focusing on DD
Plenty of time for Snape to do some damage
My most faithful servant at Hogwarts--could have meant Snape :rolleyes:
Voldemort's most faithful servant at Hogwarts was unfortunately Bartemius Crouch Jr. He was the one who helped get Harry to the cemetery. Unless of course you are suggesting that Snape was also helping to get Harry to Voldemort and is even more faithful to him than Crouch was?
kausarqadir
16-04-2005, 11:28
I dont think it was Dumbledore- I can't imagine Dumbledore staying invisible and letting Voldemort take his blood and putting him through so much.
if i am not mistaken i remember that when harry told dd what happened in graveyard, esp. when he told about taking blood etc. dd smiled as winning something worth....this could mean that now relationship between volde and HP is even stronger(as enemies) just like pettigrew in debt of HP makes a relationship , a magical bond between both.
I agree that Peter wouldn't have had the guts to reset the port key under Voldemorts and the DE noses- he has yet to redeem himself with the DE's and to frightened to defy V just yet.:
yes, he is really a coward, but changing him into rat and changing portkey and coming back could be done easily. may be ghosts/shadows have made him do this.... i still wont go for paying debt, otherwise he would have shown it to at least HP.
I don't think there is too much to it, I think we are to assume that it was a 2 way port key. But then, maybe that's what JK wants us to think :rolleyes:
i think there CAN be a two way port key. and the reason is what i have already discussed previously.
in Gof they said, they have to be careful with the materials used as portkeys, so that muggles wouldnt go picking them up.
and also, arthur said, that portkeys are objects used to transport wizards from one place to another at a prearranged time.
if that's so, then y do they have to be careful with the materials where muggles are concerned. because i also remember, amos diggory picked up the portkey and said, yes i have got it. now everyone should come closer and touch it. one finger will do....
this means that at that particular minute...... prearranged.
otherwise why worrying about muggles picking them....
If anyone can point out to me a part of the books that indicates a two way portkey then I would love to see it - i can point out the supporting evidence that suggest they are a one way travel medium - look no further than them being discarded once they arrived at the Quidditch World Cup - they werent placed into a storage area to be used for returning the people.
Then we say the 'portus' charm being performed - this all indicates to me a one way deal.
This also still means - if the assumption is correct - that someone present that night re-performed the charm on the device .... could a spirit be capable of this?
If not - we look to whoever was there - or indeed there and not known to be :)
I have to agree with Blaise. We are led to believe that the portkeys are a one way thing. BUT that doesn't mean they aren't two way, it just means there has been no need for it as yet.
For example, at the Quidditch Cup, safely storing active portkeys would be impossible, as would even knowing when they would be needed for the return trip. The portkey that took them to the hospital, again, was only one way because the return trip wasn't needed. It is still possible that it will be a revelation in HPB that they can be made two way.
However, I do still have a problem with WHY Moody/Crouch would have made that particular portkey two way. Voldemort would not have been in any condition to use it so soon, nor was he ready to take over Hogwarts, especially with so many wizards around! His plan was to kill Harry, and make a quiet return to power.
So, even though it is still possible for portkeys to be a two way travel device, it isn't logical for it to be so in GoF.
A two way portkey seems so trivial, but it could be important in HPB, hence JKR getting the possibility out there, but not elaborating as yet.
For example, at the Quidditch Cup, safely storing active portkeys would be impossible, as would even knowing when they would be needed for the return trip. The portkey that took them to the hospital, again, was only one way because the return trip wasn't needed.
See I dont agree - sorry hun ;)
You need to look at it again - they knew when the World Cup would end - and yes they could have stored the portkey's fine - in fact it would have made more sense than trying to 'charm' more objects for the return journey's.
Same with the hospital trip - i think there is every reason to assume that if it could be made a 2 way affair - it would have been.
This is all strong evidence that they are one way deals - and this is fundemental in the question to this thread - it would mean that someone would have had to perfom portus - as such who was it.
I know we can all too and fro over the portkey thing till the sun goes down - but you have to remember it is a fundemetal part of the question of how the spirits knew and how was it changed ...
Kingsley
18-04-2005, 13:00
Okay here is my try at this again for the sake of loving this thread--the spirits knew because they saw the charm being performed--if they could do any magic themselves--Volde and the death eaters would be hurt
James and Lily would have kept their eye on Snape and Volde
Cedric and Frank would have kept their eye on Wormtail and Volde
Bertha would be looking at everyone
So Lily and James told Harry to go towards the portkey right?
That to me equals Snape--
The spirits are shadows of their former selves and personally the parents knew Snape and were killed by Volde--well thats the way I see it right now
I think a spirit would have given Harry a hint to DD being there--unless someone wants to speculate to one of the death eaters being a hero
Why was the portkey changed? Was it changed to bring Harry back to Hogwarts? Or maybe bring someone else to Hogwarts?
Kingsley
18-04-2005, 15:40
So you are implying that Volde or a death eater changed it for a trip to Hogwarts to display the 2 dead champions? interesting but would that have been kept a secret from Harry? Volde doesnt mind telling his plans--he would have bragged about this idea I think
Was Barty Crouch Jr a double agent? Did he change the port key knowing Harry would return? Did he perhaps have a vendetta against Voldemort, so taught Harry as best he could in the hope that Harry could escape Voldemort after he regained his body?
Another point about Pettigrew...I don't think he would make his effort to save Harry known to anybody. His first attempt at it took place in the beginning of GoF when he tried to convince Voldemort to use just any wizard. He said that Harry Potter meant nothing to him, which I think raised Voldemort's suspicions. Pettigrew wouldn't want to die to save Harry, so in an attempt, he secretly changed the port key.
I admit that I imagine him repaying his debt in a much more spectactular way, so changing the port key might not be enough (essentially, he hasn't saved Harry's life, merely prolonged it).
It is plausible but unlikely Barty Crouch Jnr was a double agent - only because I still feel a portkey is a single trip - as such he couldnt have got it to return ..
Then of course we have Voldemort and Snape - how bad a judge must Voldemort be if he had a second double agent in his midsts - wouldnt it be too funny :D
Athena raised an interesting point above - I think if you look at what she said logically you could see another way of looking at it - and indeed perhaps a logical reason the portkey was set the way it was :)
Fortescue
01-05-2005, 16:52
"When the connection is broken, we will linger for only a moment ... but we will give you time ... you must get to the Portkey, it will return you to Hogwarts ... do you understand, Harry?" (GoF, pg 667 US)
The Portkey wasn't changed by anyone of the Death Eaters, it was changed by Lily. She's the one who led the distraction so Harry could get away, saving his life again from Voldemort.
kausarqadir
04-05-2005, 11:20
Quote:
"When the connection is broken, we will linger for only a moment ... but we will give you time ... you must get to the Portkey, it will return you to Hogwarts ... do you understand, Harry?" (GoF, pg 667 US)
The Portkey wasn't changed by anyone of the Death Eaters, it was changed by Lily. She's the one who led the distraction so Harry could get away, saving his life again from Voldemort.
interesting then. it changes the whole situation. i didnt notice that one. so this means that shadows/ ghosts CAN do magic..... otherwise why would lily tell about giving time to harry?
If anyone can point out to me a part of the books that indicates a two way portkey then I would love to see it -
page 66, The Port Key, GoF
'what sort of objects are Portkeys?' said Harry curiously.
'well, they can be anything,' said Mr. Weasley. 'Unobtrusive things, obviously, so Muggles dont go picking them up and playing with them... stuff they'll just think is litter...'
this gives me the idea of 2 ways portkeys otherwise why were they worried about muggles picking them up.... if they werent two ways, or not dangerous at all.
secondly, if it is pre arranged time, then how did Moody (Crouch jr) know the exact time of harry touching cup.
third, if Moody's eye was helping Crouch jr to see through the walls of labyrinth, then why didnt he notice both cedric and harry touching the cup at the same time.
I reckon Moody/Crouch wouldn't have cared that Cedric and Harry went for it at the same time, because he knew Cedric would just be killed. Had Cedric reached the cup first, I believe Moody/Crouch would not have bothered changing it, and risk failing rather than sending V the wrong wizard, or else he'd have done something drastic to get rid of Cedric in the last few metres.
As for the pre-arranged time of the portkey, we have seen several times a portkey set up without notice - the statues head in the ministry, the object used after Mr Weasley was attacked....The Quidditch Cup portkeys had pre arranged times so that the wizards would arrived in an organised fashion
I do agree with kausarqadir though with Mr Weasley's explanation of portkeys. It could mean that portkeys are whatever the user needs them to be.
Fortescue
04-05-2005, 16:12
interesting then. it changes the whole situation. i didnt notice that one. so this means that shadows/ ghosts CAN do magic..... otherwise why would lily tell about giving time to harry?
this gives me the idea of 2 ways portkeys otherwise why were they worried about muggles picking them up.... if they werent two ways, or not dangerous at all.
secondly, if it is pre arranged time, then how did Moody (Crouch jr) know the exact time of harry touching cup.
third, if Moody's eye was helping Crouch jr to see through the walls of labyrinth, then why didnt he notice both cedric and harry touching the cup at the same time.
I don't quite understand how the Porkey's work. Look at the times we have seen them used: when the group used the manky old boot to go to the World Cup, the Triwizard Trophy, the kettle in Dumbledore's office, and the statue head in the Ministry - the first two, the boot and the trophy were preset by someone. I assume the boot was set by the Ministry and it was obviously on a timer as they had to touch it at the precise moment. Moody/Crouch set the Triwizard Trophy. It seemed to be set for the first person who touched it. The kettle in Dumbledore's office and the statue head were different. Dumbledore turned both these objects into Portkey's and held on to them until the time the objects transported their passengers. In the other examples whomever was touching the Porkey at the time it transported were whisked away, but in both cases Dumbledore remained behind, so maybe you can also set them for the number of passengers to be transported.
I guess you can make a Porkey work anyway you want depending on your intentions.
As kashlie said, Moody/Crouch probably wouldn't have allowed Cedric to reach the trophy alone. He was watching the whole thing through the bushes he admitted to Dumbledore later - I'm sure if Cedric got to the trophy first, he would have been taken out before he actually touched it.
Thanks Blaise ;)
I just thought it might be easier to figure out who changed the portkey if we knew why it was changed :p
I have to think that Voldemort would have thought about what was to happen after he killed Harry in the cemetary--- He would want to do as much damage as possible before the rest of the Magical world knew he had returned. Right??
Fortescue
04-05-2005, 18:47
Athena raised an interesting point above - I think if you look at what she said logically you could see another way of looking at it - and indeed perhaps a logical reason the portkey was set the way it was :)
Why was the portkey changed? Was it changed to bring Harry back to Hogwarts? Or maybe bring someone else to Hogwarts?
I guess my only problem with this would be that Voldemort didn't want anyone at Hogwarts to know what happened to Harry, and he really didn't want anyone to know he got his body back and his followers. He didn’t want or intend for anyone to return to Hogwarts, Death Eater or otherwise, who would draw attention to his return. Imagine what would have happened if Harry would have died and neither he nor Cedric would have ever returned to Hogwarts. It would have become one of those legends like the Quidditch referees that disappear during a match and end up in the Sahara Desert.
I guess my only problem with this would be that Voldemort didn't want anyone at Hogwarts to know what happened to Harry, and he really didn't want anyone to know he got his body back and his followers. He didn’t want or intend for anyone to return to Hogwarts, Death Eater or otherwise, who would draw attention to his return. Imagine what would have happened if Harry would have died and neither he nor Cedric would have ever returned to Hogwarts. It would have become one of those legends like the Quidditch referees that disappear during a match and end up in the Sahara Desert.
I think just the opposite --- It's a classic sneak attack ---
If Harry died, Voldemort could then go back to Hogwarts with his deatheaters and probably take out a large number of the very people who would oppose him. Dumbledore didn't know Barty Crouch Jr. wasn't the real Mad Eye Moody. He wouldn't be expecting anyone to appear at the entrance of the Maze casting spells all over the place.
It's a classic tactical move.
Voldemort only adapted his situation once Harry lived and the portkey was gone. It was more advantageous at that point to lay low and allow the magical world to believe Harry, Dumbledore, and the rest were crazy and Voldmort was still a harmless threat.
Sirius Potter Fan
05-05-2005, 16:35
I know everyone thinks Pettigrew a complete coward, but the fact remains that he was sorted as a Gryffindor, and thus DOES have courage! Peter had the perfect oportunity to change the cup to a return portkey when he went back for Harry's wand. And indeed Lilly would have noticed him going as a rat, and most likely understood just what he had done. It is argued that this only "prolonged" Harry's life, but what is saving a life but simply prolonging it untill we must all ultimately die? I have questions about whether this indeed paid his debt to Harry however. James saved Snapes life once, but Snape has actually protected Harry on several occasions, in MHO to repay the debt he owes James. So perhaps Pettigrew still has some "saving" yet to do.
James saved Snapes life once, but Snape has actually protected Harry on several occasions, in MHO to repay the debt he owes James
SPF, you need to take this over to another thread regarding the night the Potters died and whether someone else was there ;)
I agree, I think Pettigrew changed the portkey, if indeed it was changed. He had motive and opportunity, and the fact is, the shadows were merely echos of those Voldemort had died. They couldn't possibly perform magic!
Fortescue
06-05-2005, 01:34
Voldemort only adapted his situation once Harry lived and the portkey was gone. It was more advantageous at that point to lay low and allow the magical world to believe Harry, Dumbledore, and the rest were crazy and Voldmort was still a harmless threat.
"Because he doesn't want to draw attention to himself at the moment," said Sirius. "it would be dangerous for him. His comeback didn't come off quite the way he wanted it to, you see. He messed it up."
"Or rather, you messed it up for him," said Lupin with a satisfied smile.
"How?" Harry asked perplexedly.
"You weren't supposed to survive!" said Sirius. "Nobody apart from his Death Eaters was supposed to know he'd come back. But you survived to bear witness."
"And the very last person he wanted alerted to his return the moment he got back was Dumbledore," said Lupin. "And you made sure Dumbledore knew at once." (OotP, pg 92)
I'm sure that Voldemort wouldn't have popped onto the lawn at Hogwarts using the Portkey concidering, as I said before, he didn't want anyone to know he'd gotten his body back and would be building his army and looking for new followers.
The only problem with the conversation between Harry, Sirius, and Lupin is that there is no way they could know what Voldemort had planned for that night.
Yes, Harry definitely did mess up Voldemort's plan by surviving, but which plans did he mess up.
Now (in the OOTP) Voldemort would absolutely want to keep his rebirth quiet. So he could recruit more allies. Gain more strength to go up against the Ministry and an Informed Dumbledore who has his guard up more vigliantly now. He has the Order back together now. He knows Voldemort is back and will be ready to fight.
He wasn't then.... he would be an easier target during the time of the Third Task. Voldemort had the advantage then. He would take that opportunity.
He would have been able to take out Fudge and had a good chance of disposing of Dumbledore -- not to mention how many of the staff of Hogwarts and the families that were there for the task.
With Dumbledore gone, and a "massacre" at Hogwarts, Voldemort wouldn't have to look far to replenish his troops.
Like I said above, The Order couldn't know his original plans for the night in the cemetary. They could only assume from the events that followed Harry's return to Hogwarts.
"How do you know what his plans are?" Harry asked quickly.
"Dumbledore's got a shrewd idea," said Lupin, "and Dumbledore's shrewd ideas normally turn out to be accurate." (emphasis added by me)
Fortescue
06-05-2005, 13:45
Since this has gotten totally off topic :rolleyes: all I can say is that Dumbledore knew what was going on and what Voldemort's plans were, not only because of Harry, but because of his little spy, Snape. He sent Snape out that same night after the tournament to start his spying again. I guess I'd assume that's where they got their information about Voldemort's plans.
Back to the Portkey - I believe Lily changed the Portkey back, as I said before, the only other one with the opportunity was Wormtail when he went to fetch Harry's wand, but I don't think he would have done something against Voldemort at that time since he'd just gotten his shiny new hand, and the Lily ghost wouldn't have known about it if he had as she hadn't come out of Voldemort's wand yet.
EDIT: I read the oversized paperback of GoF and found that this part of the chapter, Priori Incantatem has been corrected in the paperback version. JKR said the original hardback was wrong in the order that James and Lily came out of Voldemort's wand. In the hardback, James came out first, then Lily. In the paperback the order has been corrected and Lily came out first and told Harry to wait for his father. I guess it could have been either of them that changed the Portkey when I read both versions. The wording is almost identical except for their discriptions when they came out of the wand.
Kingsley
11-05-2005, 10:36
So you are under the impression that these shadows can cast magic--
Is there anything to support the idea that a spirit can do magic---besides the Voldemort angle :cool:
I could go either way but if a spirit can do magic--I would guess Lily changed the portkey
I'm sure once again on JKR's site she explains about the shadows ... as in they were just that.
I think it was when she was talking about the pictures etc and how they interact - the shadows are a representation of the essence of the person - they arent intelligent, living (there is a word for this) presences - more just shadows of the person.
I dont think that the shadows were capable of even holding a wand nevermind casting spells - because if they could I am sure Lily and James would have done more to help Harry than just cast portus at the Trophy!
Fortescue
12-05-2005, 13:07
In the book, the misty forms were called echoes of the person. I guess my question is if they didn't have some kind of substance other then being a mist or a visual illusion, how could they stop Voldemort from chasing Harry before he made it to the Cedric and the Portkey? They had to have some type of power, either magical or physical to impede Voldemort's path long enough for Harry to get away. I don't think something with absolutely no substance could have stopped Voldemort.
Voldemort was freaked out!
He had all these spirits coming out and obscuring his view of events - coupled with the Priori Incantem moments - the wands locked together the whole deal.
He was prolly that bewildered at what was happening he was also prolly at his most vunerable.
I think given what was happening it would have taken all he had to comprehend what was happening.
Harry had the assist from the spirits - he was under advice - to Voldemort they were a distraction that served to give Harry enough time to make his getaway.
Fortescue
14-05-2005, 16:07
Voldemort was freaked out!
He had all these spirits coming out and obscuring his view of events - coupled with the Priori Incantem moments - the wands locked together the whole deal.
He was prolly that bewildered at what was happening he was also prolly at his most vunerable.
I think given what was happening it would have taken all he had to comprehend what was happening.
Harry had the assist from the spirits - he was under advice - to Voldemort they were a distraction that served to give Harry enough time to make his getaway.
That is completely true - Voldemort was freaked out through the entire scene. Harry noted the look of terror in his eyes when the wands connected and through everything that followed. I just think there was something more to them then just an echo. They obviously could think for themselves as each one spoke to Harry, even Frank and Bertha, neither of who had ever met him. James had (or Lily, depending on the version of the book you read,) one of them had the capability to tell Harry what he had to do - I guess my thought of an echo is something that repeats, but obviously Harry had never been in that particular situation and I'm pretty sure that James and/or Lily had never had to say those exact words to any other person before. There had to be some type of magic involved with their aiding Harry either through the echoes or because of Harry's connection with Fawkes - it's just my thoughts though :D
Sir Cadogan
15-05-2005, 05:12
That is completely true - Voldemort was freaked out through the entire scene. Harry noted the look of terror in his eyes when the wands connected and through everything that followed. I just think there was something more to them then just an echo.
I agree with you, Fortescue, I also think there is more substance to these spirits than what we usually expect of an "echo".
But I want to add a particular reason why Voldemort is so terrified. There are these "large beads of light [...] sliding up and down the thread connecting the wands", and they are first moving towards Harry's wand, but then with an enormous effort of will, supported through the Phoenix song he hears within himself, Harry manages to force the beads back, they slowly slide in Voldemort's direction, and when the first one touches the tip of Voldemort's wand, the "shadows" begin to leave the wand.
So, what I think shocks Voldemort are two things: First, he loses the battle of wills as he is unable to force the beads of light the other way; second, if he knows about "priori incantatem", then he also knows that his victims will somehow try to help Harry (if he hasn't heard of "p.i." before, which I doubt, he is just as confused about it as Harry is).
Sorry for getting a tiny bit off topic, but it seemed important in this context.
Fortescue
28-05-2005, 11:31
I also wonder how they could converse both with Harry and Voldemort if they didn't have some type of substance. They were giving Harry words of encouragement while saying things to Voldemort that Harry couldn't hear. I'm sure it wasn't them asking him about the weather :D
I thought back to the suggestion of Wormtail changing the Porkey - if he did indeed do that then that would mean he has paid his life debt to Harry and Harry is probably not aware of it. If Wormtail did do it, does that mean that Harry might have a slightly false sense of security believing that Wormtail still owes Harry his life, when in reality he already paid that debt?
To add to that, I wonder how misty James would know that Wormtail had changed the Porkey?
Sirius Potter Fan
28-05-2005, 14:24
This is just a thought I had the other day. . .I was reading through the chapter, and trying to figure out who had the oportunity, but there just doens't seem to be anyone, and I really don't belive that the "shadows" of the killed persons would have been able to do magic, so. . . my theory is this.
the Cup was at the middle of the maze, where no one could see through the 20 ft high bushes. so if it were close, how would they know who won? It had to be a portkey that would bring the winner to the grand stand at the maze entrance right?
So, Barty (as Moody) volunteers to take the cup into the maze, places his portus charm on it, and leaves, well. . . then Dumbledore, unknowing places another charm on it, not knowing what Barty did right. My guess is that, if an object has two portus charms on it, it will act on the first one first, and the second one next. So, when Harry and Cedric touched it together, it took them to the graveyard, then when Harry came back to it, it took him to the grandstand at the maze entrance. I know this doesn't explain just how the shadows knew it would work though. so, it really doesn't satisfy me.
My other thought on this is as I said before, that Peter put the charm on it when he went to retrieve Harry's wand, and what I have to add to that, is that if Peter used Harry's wand, then the information of what the wand had been used for could have been present in the thread of light that bound the two wands, so that is how the shadows knew that the cup would return Harry to Hogwarts.
Isnt a wand required to perfom Portus?
Since that would have been the only way of re-setting the port key - how would a ghost be able to do that?
Where would they have got the wand?
I like the idea of duel portus charms placed on the port key but I say again - we have never seen an instance of a two way porkey but we have seen them discarded after use and it stated they will need to be re-charged again.
Sirius Potter Fan
29-05-2005, 16:27
Just because we have never seen a dual portkey, does not mean that they don't exist. We also haven't seen the need of a dual portkey before GoF. (actualy I don't think we saw a portkey at all before GoF) We never saw a prophesy globe before OotP, but they had existed. But, that still doesn't explain how the ghosts knew what would happen.
Fortescue
30-05-2005, 04:38
I think our choices so far have been Wormtail - probably the most obvious one, since he had to walk right past the Porkey when he went to fetch Harry's wand. It was mentioned that one of the Death Eaters that Voldemort did not name might have been Snape, (I don't remember if it was in this thread or another) :D
I also thought that one of the unnamed Death Eaters might be Narcissa Malfoy. Draco did hint at her being one of the hooded DEs at the World Cup. If she wasn't out there with the others, why wasn't she with her son? I wonder if it's possible that she was one of the unnamed DEs, (it would make sense and show how she might have met Lucius, especially since her sister is a long-time DE as well.) Maybe the motherly instincts in her :o were enough to make her do something like change the Portkey instead of watching a young boy die.
I would assume as the Prior Incantatem began and all the DE's were milling about outside the web of light, she, or someone else could have had the opportunity to activate the Portkey to go back to Hogwarts. If it were Wormtail, he would have had to do it with Harry's wand, because someone said earlier that Wormtail didn't seem to have a wand of his own, and I agree with that. If he did have his own wand he wouldn't have been using Voldemort's to kill Bertha Jorkin, (as Voldemort was still a mist at the time and couldn't hold a wand) and Cedric.
I just don't believe it could have been Snape because the timing was not right. He would have had to leave Hogwarts grounds when Voldemort touched Wormtail's arm in order to apparate, then on the return trip he'd have to return outside Hogwarts grounds and make a b-line for Dumbledore as he seemed to be there for Dumbledore almost immediately.
I guess my one supporting argument for Snape being one of the unnamed Death Eaters, and how the time frame might work is if Snape did flee the grounds, apparate to the graveyard, change the Portkey while everyone was busy watching Voldemort and Harry, disapparate back to the Hogwarts gates and run to meet Dumbledore and McGonagall as they entered the castle following Mad-Eye/Crouch. He didn't show up on the scene until we saw him with Dumbledore and McGonagall. It's pretty tight timing, but it could work. Another assumption might be added - he could do all this and it might work if he was an animagus and turned into a bat, a vulture or something and flew outside the grounds to apparate, and the same on the return trip. If all this were done with precise timing, Snape might have been there to change the Portkey for Harry. :D
I'm done babbling now :D
Sirius Potter Fan
30-05-2005, 06:49
No, not babling. . . a window of possibility that does seem to make sense. I like the "animagus" idea of the bat. we were sent on a wild goose hunt by JKR droping the "bat" thing and leading many to speculate that Snape was a vampire, then she shot that down, but he is still often reffered to as "batlike" or "an over grown bat" so the animagus thing could really work. But of course, that wouldn't explaine how the "echos" knew what had happened. I don't think it could have been any of the DE's though. they are described as being in a near panic and trying to find a way to help their master. Voldemort has to tell them to "do nothing" as he himself is near panic. And Narcissa. . .no. . . I don't think her "motherly" instincts would bring her to betray Voldemort. The DE's are just as Afraid of Voldemort as they are loyal. It all just seems to come back to Pettigrew...he had the oportunity (going to get Harry's wand), motive (his debt to Harry) and the means (Harry's wand). And this also explains how the echos would have known about the portkey, because the echo of that spell would have been available in the connection between the wands. I do believe that Snape would have been there, he had to make an apperance if he were to keep up his front as a double agent.
Kingsley
06-07-2005, 12:24
Snape as a bat makes sense
Snape as an animagus would explain how he had it in for the Marauders and vice versa
Think I feel a new thread
I definitely think that the spirits were all seeing to the effect of noticing what was happening--when they came out of the wands there was no confusion
I dont find it a hard stretch for them to know of a changed portkey.
I'm not 100% sure - but I think JKR killed the rumour that Snape was a vampire ...
Will try and see if I can find it - but I am sure I read that at some point ...
Weasleyfanforever
07-07-2005, 12:33
Is this the one you were talking about? Pretty much the only thing I could find on Snape not being a vampire, and I looked in several places... :p
Megan: Is there a link between Snape and vampires?
JK Rowling replies -> Erm... I don't think so.
You rule! :D
That will be the one!
I think that counts as a 'nope' to me ....
It was a shame because I actually really liked the idea of Snape and vampire
This was what lead onto people speculating that Snape could turn into a bat ... so while it doesnt deal with that - I think JKR would have given a bit more of an answer if there was a chance Snape was a bat ... but that could be just me ...
yarvelling
07-07-2005, 23:52
Perhaps a portkey is a two-way thing...it doesn't just go the one way, but after taking the traveller to their destination, it 'resets' itself for the return journey; to wherever the traveller had originaly departed....???
Fortescue
09-07-2005, 04:15
Yarvey, that doesn't seem like a good idea... Suppose a wizard uses a Portkey to go somewhere, like the old boot the Weasely's used to get to the World Cup, and it ended up getting thrown out or tossed in the weeds when they were done. A Muggle could pick it up and use it. The Portkey's used for the World Cup were on a timer - sort of like a bus schedule. They were set to activate at a certain time, so I'd assume they would have to have a new spell cast upon them to be used again.
The best candidate mentioned so far would be Wormtail, since we are sure he was there, but if he did change the Portkey with Harry's wand, that means he has paid Harry back the life-debt owed and Harry no longer holds that card against Voldemort. I don't want to think about that :rolleyes:
Varvey - if your review back you will see all the reasons that a portkey is a one way deal .. It's kinda interesting because that is what most people's initial answer to the question is.
We also have to look at Snape - he was suppose to be at Hogwarts - also depending on how you see the commentary by Voldemort as to the missing Death Eaters - you might rule him out as the most loyal, indeed the coward or one that thinks he has left forever and will be killed ...
Forte - have to agree with your own contradiction there - I think Wormtail is still to pay his debt - as such he cannot be the person that did it ...
So - the search continues :p
Fortescue
10-07-2005, 05:15
We also have to look at Snape - he was suppose to be at Hogwarts - also depending on how you see the commentary by Voldemort as to the missing Death Eaters - you might rule him out as the most loyal, indeed the coward or one that thinks he has left forever and will be killed ...
Snape just doesn't seem likely. I know we've dissected this thoroughly, but if he doesn't turn into a bat, as we know JKR has squashed that theory, I just don't see how else he could have answered Voldemort's call unless he had his own Portkey at Hogwarts and used that to get to the graveyard.
Forte - have to agree with your own contradiction there - I think Wormtail is still to pay his debt - as such he cannot be the person that did it ...
So - the search continues :p
If it wasn't Wormtail then I will feel better. The fact that he could have already paid his debt to Harry, and Harry to be unaware of this is disturbing. As for the echoes of his parents changing the Portkey; there's nothing to substantiate or refute it actually, just throughout the discussion, it seems that most people don't believe it's possible that the ghostly apparitions could manage magic as they are not living beings anymore. So, in my thinking, I am rather at a dead end. I don't agree with the two-way Porkey idea as it seems that would have been disclosed by Crouch.
The only other explanation I can think of is that the Tri-Wizard cup already had one spell on it - the one placed on it to take the champion out of the maze and place them in front of the judges. When Moody/Crouch placed his spell on the cup it simply added to the one that was already there. Thus, Moody/Crouch's spell took effect first, and the spell that was placed on the cup to return the champion out of the maze and in front of the judges took effect with the second touch of the cup, and actually, no one at the graveyard helped Harry and we can be secure in the fact that Wormtail still owes Harry his life.
... you cant apparate on Hogwarts grounds - but throw a leg over the boundary and see what happens right ... ;)
Athena one said she believed that the cup had 2 spells placed on it - one to take Harry to the Graveyard - and one to return Voldemort to Hogwarts ... would help cut past all that security wouldn't it ...
Given the apparent lack of conclusive evidence - this is actually seems like a good idea to me now :p
If you think laterally about it - one to get Harry there - with a spell that was sealed in the protective area of Hogwarts - and one that returns it back - we know it acted like a port key on the way out - what if there is a similar version but more of a retrieval mechanism?
Fortescue
10-07-2005, 12:30
... you cant apparate on Hogwarts grounds - but throw a leg over the boundary and see what happens right ... ;)
Athena one said she believed that the cup had 2 spells placed on it - one to take Harry to the Graveyard - and one to return Voldemort to Hogwarts ... would help cut past all that security wouldn't it ...
Given the apparent lack of conclusive evidence - this is actually seems like a good idea to me now :p
If you think laterally about it - one to get Harry there - with a spell that was sealed in the protective area of Hogwarts - and one that returns it back - we know it acted like a port key on the way out - what if there is a similar version but more of a retrieval mechanism?
I believe it could have two spells, but I don't buy the remark about one spell to return Voldemort to Hogwarts. The first spell was probably placed on the cup by Dumbledore and had the time element to it so it wouldn't activate until after the final task started so the cup could be carried out to the maze. The second spell done my Moody, was probably set by him at the time he placed the cup on the plynth, so the first person to touch it would go to Voldemort. Regarding the return trip to Hogwarts was meant for Voldemort, he, Voldemort didn't wan't anyone to know he had gotten his body back and wouldn't have just popped into the middle of Hogwarts grounds right in front of Dumbledore and the rest of the wizards there. As Sirius told Harry in OotP, no one was supposed to know Voldemort was back because Harry was supposed to have died and no one would have been the wiser until Voldemort had time to rebuild his followers and could take over properly.
HarryPotter80000
15-01-2006, 03:27
So are you back to believing it was Snape?
I have always thought maybe the ghost could have said a charm or incantation
Snaoe would have had to pretend he wasnt there when DD sent him on the mission at the end
I think the spirits are the only real option
Of course Snape could have done it but he wouldnt have been able to disapparate :confused:
Well all i know is that it was not snape because he says in the sixth book to Malfoy's wife that he didnt return to voldemort so that's all i have to say
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