Voldemort Recruiting Lily/James?

[Boing]

In chapter four of PS/SS, Harry is learning from Hagrid about the night of his parent's deaths. There are a couple things he says that sounded interesting and worthy of a second look:

"Now yer mum an' dad were as good a witch an' wizard as I ever knew. . . . Suppose the myst'ry is why You-Know-Who never tried to get 'em on his side before . . . "

Note how he says "before" when he is talking about the night that Voldemort went to the Potters' house . . . like he had never tried before, but he was trying that night.

"Maybe he thought he could persuade 'em . . . maybe he just wanted 'em outta the way."

By those two things, it sounds like Hagrid thinks that Voldemort possibly went to the Potters' house that night to try and get James and/or Lily to switch sides and become a DE.

Now, we know what happened that night and one of the big mysteries is why does it seem that Voldemort didn't want Lily to die? Perhaps an answer to this is that he wanted to try and convince her to come to the DE side. What would have given him the idea that she would even be open to this? We know she didn't, but it raises some interesting questions.

Food for thought!

[Tinkerbell]

I wonder whether this has something to do with the "thrice defied" bit?

Perhaps Voldemort tried to recruit Lily and James and three times they refused, and this is why he set out to destroy them?

[Kingsley]

I can see why that would be thought of as defied--they disagreed with him and maybe he insisted and tried to make them an offer he couldnt refuse--

So would the Longbottoms fit under this same theory

[Alz]

The question I have to that was what would make Voldemort think the Potters would be interested?
Did anyone else get the PS/SS intial transcript extra from JKR on her site - it seemed to suggest that the Potters werent all white and light ..... and she scrapped it ...
I wonder - age, youth etc that they might have flirted with the idea of a dark career - even just a split second ... perhaps the Longbottoms also?
I know that James hated Dark Arts etc - one of the reasons he sparked with Snape - but I just wonder as well - so nice thread Boing!

[Tinkerbell]

Perhaps one of the above mentioned had previously succumbed to the Imperius Curse? They would have subsequently recovered and this is what strengthened their resolve to defeat Voldemort and his resolve to destroy them?

[catchthesnitch]

You know, Blaise, that was a great catch from JKR's site. I just went back and re-read it again. Gosh and gee willikers, there was suspicion that the Potters had stolen the Sorcerer's/Philosopher's Stone!

Why the heck would they do that unless a) they were doing it for Voldemort; or b) they were doing it to keep the stone away from Voldemort. Either way, Voldemort would have a strong, vested interest in bringing the Potters to his side.

Now, yes, James hated the Dark Arts -- but what kind of boy was he at Hogwarts? While he was on the surface a perfect guy -- Quidditch star, popular, etc...what did he do for enjoyment? He hexed other students for laughs -- he and Sirius both. Also, what the heck kind of magic did he use on Sevvie in the flashback in OOTP -- any magic, including hexes, that harm another I consider Dark Magic -- and he did suspend Severus in the air and let his undies fall away. :)

I suppose this goes along with my "James Potter is a Nasty Git" thread that I posted long ago -- but now with Boing's post here, I wonder more.

Plus, at the end of PS/SS wasn't there quite a bit of taunting by Voldemort to Harry about the Potters? Something strikes a nerve in Voldemort about Jamesandlily and I'm sure we'll find out sooner or later.

One more thing -- Dumbledore had somehow got hold of James' invisibility cloak after James' death... he says James "left it in [his] possession" -- but how? Why wouldn't Dumbledore also learn of or otherwise "acquire" the location of the Stone from James Potter posthumously as well?

Chew on that bit of sirloin. ;)

[Tinkerbell]

So CTS, are you saying that it was someone else who put the Stone in the vault at Gringotts, and not Flamel? That perhaps the Potters knew where Flamel had originally kept it and once it's safety and security was threatened, they decided to take things into their own hands, to keep it out of Voldemort's, and perhaps put it in Gringotts themselves??

Good points tho hun!!

[Boing]

I think what CTS meant was that perhaps we could speculate that the Potters once *did* have the Stone in their possession and that Dumbledore might have "acquired" it as he acquired the invisibility cloak. We still don't know how it came to be in Dumbledore's possession.

However, I think that Dumbledore, being such close friends with Flamel, probably just got it from him . .. boring, I know!

As for the thrice defied, that is interesting to think that perhaps it has something to do with turning down offers from Voldemort to join his side.

[catchthesnitch]

I don't know, Tink. It's mainly speculation stemming from the JKR fragment on her website, and from what Blaise said. I was just having fun with it. :)

[Alz]

Not sure if you all read the page before but I would recommend a re-read.
She wrote that page and then scrapped it - but notice she wrote it - so had it in mind.
Also note she put it on her site - I think this is a little clue - and when i saw this I thought it was a good place to mention it.
CTS is playing on the possible ramifications of what JKR could have been doing if she left that page in ... I like it :D

[MissWhizbee]

Along the thrice defied line...I really don't think that it could mean that the potters turned down voldemort 3 times. i don't think voldemort would be diplomatic and leave you alone if he came to you and wanted you to join him and you said no. I think telling Voldemort no once would secure your place on the recieving end of one of the unforgiveable curses. So I really think it would have to have been secret defiance until after the third defiance. Then Vodlemort would find out and you would have to expect him to be coming after you.

I wonder if Hagrid knows about the prophecy? I don't think he does. So maybe he has just pieced stuff together or maybe dumbledore actually told him something like that just to give him a simple explanation and not have to go into detail about the prophecy since dumbledore wanted as few people as possible to know about it.

[Boing]

I really don't think that Hagrid knows about the prophecy. At least he didn't as of PS/SS. He had no idea why Voldemort went to the house - he said that perhaps Voldemort was trying to get them to turn sides or maybe just to get them out of the way.

Hagrid seemed really confused as to why he would want to hurt Harry as well - he said perhaps just to make a clean sweep of the place.

[Alz]

You know something strikes me here ....
What is Voldemort wasnt going to the Potters to kill Harry - but to secure him and the Potters with him ...
Along the lines of Boings point to the thread ....
Dumbledore tells the Potters Voldemort is coming to attack and kill Harry - Voldemort arrives and of course James attacks Voldemort - Voldemort cant make his point and has to kill James ...
He then goes upstairs and then tried to explain that he doesnt want to Kill Harry - he wants to secure him as an heir to him - it makes sense that he is really powerful and yet this boy could kill him - so if he gets him while he is young he can raise him to be an allie more than a threat ...
I think the net result is the same - Lily was never going to have any of that - she was not going to follow Voldemort so he tells her to get out of the way so he can go and get Harry anyways.
I know we are told he casts AK at Harry - but given the lack of shadow in his wand and also the strange effects of what happened - I am gonna wildly speculate this instead as a theory!

[Boing]

So Voldemort tells Lily to step aside so he can just kidnap her only son??? Or are you saying that there is more to the conversation that we don't know and after he explained himself to Lily he told her to step aside?

I guess it's possible - in Harry's dementor vision he hears his mom saying, "Not Harry . . . I'll do anything . . ."

So perhaps Voldemort *was* trying to get her to do something specific for him . . .

[Alz]

I cant help but feel there is a sting in the tail in this ...
It seems too straight forward the way we are seeing it so far - apart from working out why Harry wasnt killed and Voldemort was ripped from his body - there must be more to it!
I cant help but think Dumbledore made the Potters petrified about what Voldemort was going to do - knowing in fact that Voldemort was just going to kidnap Harry if the Potters didnt lay down.
I think he knew there was no chance he would ever father and wanted someone who would be an heir to him - what better than the only person that could kill him ;)

[Boing]

Okay, in PS/SS on the train to Hogwarts the first time, Draco says to Harry, “I’d be careful if I were you, Potter. Unless you’re a bit politer you’ll go the same way as your parents. They didn’t know what was good for them, either. You hang around with riffraff like the Weasleys and that Hagrid, and it’ll rub off on you.” –

So, it appears that Malfoy knows what happened to Harry’s parents. What didn’t they do that would have been good for them – can’t be as simple as just handing Harry over. Sounds like they had a choice at some point and chose the non-Voldemort path . . .

[Alz]

See in the context of the wording - it seemed like an opinion and not a fact ...
"they didnt know what was good for them, either" - suggests to me that is Draco's opinion that they should have sided with Voldemort etc - and then they wouldnt be dead ...
Draco would have heard things from his Dad's point of view - would have been interesting the DE's take on the events and how they reported it - as such it might explain Draco's attitude :)

[Hermione]

Did anyone else get the PS/SS intial transcript extra from JKR on her site - it seemed to suggest that the Potters werent all white and light ..... and she scrapped it ...


Does anyone have a link to it?

I do wonder why Voldemort didn't try to get James and Lily Potter to join him. They would have been great allies to him.

I don't think the Potter ever had the Stone, though.

[Boing]

It's a hidden feature that you need to collect items to get to . . . has someone on the site here "translated" it from JKR's handwriting and posted it? That might be the best option . . .

[Alz]

Yah - I have seen a translated version - might have to go search for it - because well not sure it was here if you get my meaning ...
Could be a job for Wheezy - we know how much she likes to find things - we need a translated version of the scrapped page from JKR's site Wheezy - it was a bonus for doing something on her site - collecting feathers, leaves and stuff I think?

[Tonks]

I'm not Wheezy but tough luck. ;) Here you are:
"So this Flamel bloke found the Stone - " said Ron.
"No - he made it," said Harry. "He was an alchemist, which means..."
"Someone who burns base metals into gold," said Hermione. She had that old proving-I-know-more-than-everyone-else look on her face, the other two noticed, "Of course! I read about this in 'Alchemy, Ancient Art and Science' by Argo Pyrites -"
"I missed that one myself," muttered Ron.
" - of course. It's some of the most difficult magic you can do. And you end up not just with pure gold, but also with a funny stone thing -"
"Which is what I'm on about," said Harry. "The Philosopher's Stone, yes. And it works too. It kept Nicolas Flamel and his wife alive for almost five hundred years."
"What?"
"I know, said Harry. "But it's true. He was spotted at the opera in Paris in 1762 and he was born back in 13 something."
Ron whistled.
"But he's dead now?" he asked.
"Of course," said Harry. "Someone stole his Stone so he couldn't make any more Elixir of Life, could he? It takes a while to make another Stone, and by that time, I suppose he was just too old to live without his Elixir until a new Stone was ready. And now I'll tell you something else really weird that I haven't told you up to now - the Stone was found in my parents' safe at Gringott's bank."
But instead of the interested noises Harry had expected, Ron and Hermione simply stared at him.
"What?" said Harry.
Ron cleared his throat, opened his mouth to speak but shut it again.
"What?" Harry said.
"Well, Harry," said Hermione. "I mean..."
"You mean what?"
He stared at them both as they shuffled their feet and tried not to look him in the eye.
"You don't think," he said suddenly and angrily, "that my parents stole the Stone?"
"Um..." said Ron.
"Look," said Harry furiously, "That's like saying they murdered Flamel..."
"Oh Harry, we never thought..."
"Not much, you didn't," said Harry. "I don't know how it got in there, but the Stone wasn't put there by them ..."
"Right," said Ron quickly. "I'm sure you're right."
"There must be an obvious explanation," said Hermione.
Harry wasn't at all convinced that they meant it, but at that moment the bell rang which put an end to the conversation.

[Alz]

"Of course," said Harry. "Someone stole his Stone so he couldn't make any more Elixir of Life, could he? It takes a while to make another Stone, and by that time, I suppose he was just too old to live without his Elixir until a new Stone was ready. And now I'll tell you something else really weird that I haven't told you up to now - the Stone was found in my parents' safe at Gringott's bank."
But instead of the interested noises Harry had expected, Ron and Hermione simply stared at him.
"What?" said Harry.
Ron cleared his throat, opened his mouth to speak but shut it again.
"What?" Harry said.
"Well, Harry," said Hermione. "I mean..."
"You mean what?"
He stared at them both as they shuffled their feet and tried not to look him in the eye.
"You don't think," he said suddenly and angrily, "that my parents stole the Stone?"
"Um..." said Ron.
"Look," said Harry furiously, "That's like saying they murdered Flamel..."
"Oh Harry, we never thought..."
"Not much, you didn't," said Harry. "I don't know how it got in there, but the Stone wasn't put there by them ..."
"Right," said Ron quickly. "I'm sure you're right."
"There must be an obvious explanation," said Hermione.
Harry wasn't at all convinced that they meant it, but at that moment the bell rang which put an end to the conversation.
See now when you look at this part - you have to think dont ya ;)
The questions that come to mind - what did JKR have in mind at that time - and why did she scrap it?
Is it because to reveal so early that Lily and James werent so white as white might have ruined the storyline later on?
In the context of this question - some relevance maybe?

[Boing]

You know, based upon JKR's writing style, that is usually the way that something comes out in the open. Harry comes across some information and misinterprets it - his emotions get in the way of him seeing what his friends can sometimes see before him. The whole book runs around this and then, at the end, we see it all come together.

Could Lily and/or James have stolen the PS/SS for Voldemort? What if Voldemort had threatened the life of someone in the family if another person didn't comply? So, like he said he would kill James or Harry if Lily didn't get him what he needed.

But is that what happened in this version of the story that JKR has actually published? You know, in several interviews she has been asked if she has changed the story as she went along or added/deleted things that she hadn't planned on. Each time she says that the story is still the same except for some minor changes here and there - people or storylines she didn't have time to put in or just didn't fit. So, if that is the case, perhaps we are on to something here - if the basic storyline is still the same, then perhaps James and Lily were up to something.

[Alz]

See I was wondering the same thing ...
I wonder if JKR might have seen this as too much of a blatent clue about the Potters so dropped the direct implication it seems to assume.
I just wondered if that indeed this is true and part of the story we will find out later down the line that it might have some bearing on the thrice defied and 'moments' they shared with Voldemort?
Also - by JKR doing this release of the re-write - she gets the information out there and can look back and say - 'well I tried to tell you earlier' :D

[Tonks]

It's still a bit twisted though..
From PS/SS all the way through GoF we think of Lily and James of these great people who just happened to be killed by this evil Dark lord, and then in OotP Harry gets a glimpse at what his father had been like at school, seems to change his mind and realize that he was a bit of a jerk - only to be reassured by everyone else that James really wasn't like that and he grew up to become a great guy!

I really dont know if she could take the idea presented in the earlier version of the re-write and place it in the last two books with the Potters being a whole lot less innocent than we originally thought.. It'd sure be a huge plot twist - but people are probably gonna hate it if Lily and James turn out to be the complete opposite of what everyone seems to think about them..

Still - I guess I just can't see her releasing this older storyline if it was still going to give some hint as to how the Potters lives were .. I dont think she'd release it knowing it was still going to be of some importance.. but that could just be ignorance on my part ;)

[Alz]

Ohh see that is going a step too far - I am not entertaining the idea the Potters were 'Death Eaters' in disguise - more that their dealings with Voldemort might not have been all confrontational - I still cant get passed the whole telling Lily to step aside instead of just killing her outright.
I think there is some history there - maybe one or both of the Potters wandered down a path that wasnt all white and light for a little bit before doing a Snape and using this as an advantage to getting into the Voldemort plans and idea's.
I just think we need to look at a few things that have happened and it seems that there might, and i mean just might be a twist none of us are expecting.
I remeber we will hear something shocking about Lily in book 6 - I cant help but think she has something to do with Voldemort in some way or form.