Was Barty Jr a Death Eater? [Archive]

Nagini

25-01-2005, 14:02

Although Barty Jnr never admitted being a Death Eater he did say himself that he was Voldemorts most devoted follower and calls Voldemort his master. His only thoughts were off returning to him once he was well enough after coming out of Azkaban.

I am not sure that Barty was the most devoted follower that Voldemort mentioned but I do think he was a Death Eater and a clever one at that. He begged and pleaded with his father not to send him to prison as he knew his mother loved him and would plead for his life - in the end he won that battle as his mother persuaded her husband to switch them around.

Fizzle Snap

25-01-2005, 15:22

I really think there is a distinction between being a Voldemort supporter and a death eater... I think Voldy's roll call was for his inner circle, his "initiates". I also think that Barty Jr was too young when Voldemort disappeared to have been trusted and initiated into the death eaters. He was tried for attacking the Longbottoms after Voldy vanished... a "youth" at the time.

Kingsley

25-01-2005, 15:28

Was the quote--my most loyal death eater--or servant remains at Hogwarts btw?

I never remember Voldemort saying Crouch was his death eater

Fizzle Snap

25-01-2005, 15:33

Loyal servant, perhaps... but when he counted in the circle (the dead, incarcerated, loyal and cowards) he was specifically counting his crew... at least it would seem so. I'm just saying that, if we speculate about the identities of the missing DE's in the circle, we can narrow the field by one: Barty didn't count. I think it's another JK ruse... and his most loyal servant is still nestled in at Hogwarts.

Probably Snape or Filch's cat... or even better ... Dumbledore. Someone else mentioned that he'd make a great villain, and I definitely agree.

Tonks

25-01-2005, 16:13

I do think that Crouch was a Death Eater. However, he may not have been up in the highest ranks of the Death Eaters. Fizzle Snap mentioned that he was young when Voldemort disappeared and that he may not have been trusted to be initiated, but I think that because of the ties his father had with the Ministry, Voldemort probably would have realized if Courch could be trusted. I bet he would have wanted to use his family ties to his advantage.

I think that when he was going around the circle, those were all the Death Eaters, so if one of the gaps was for Crouch, then he would have been a Death Eater. I personally think he's the most loyal one, but thats just me. ;)

CrookshanksKitty

26-01-2005, 05:14

When Voldemorte was going around the circle looking for those death eaters missing, he mentioned one who had already returned to his service. Could this be Barty Jr. since he was already setting Harry up? At first I thought he meant Wormtail, but he was already there and wouldn't be counted.

Fizzle Snap

26-01-2005, 07:40

Okay, so I brushed up on my GoF... reread it last night. Good old Barty Jr. was INDEED a death eater! Voldemort identifies him as a faithful death eater, not just servant, in chapter 33.

This all came out of a thread about who the missing DE's were... there were 6. The Lestranges were counted as 2 separately, 8 total missing, and 6 unidentified except for Voldemorts comments.

Three dead, one too cowardly (Karkaroff fled), one who has left forever (Snape was publicly identified as a spy by Dumbledore), and one who had already entered his service... Barty Jr. Someone once suggested Bagman was the coward, but Ludo never was identified as a DE, just a bit of a moron who passed them secrets.

Oh, well... Sorry guys.

Boing

26-01-2005, 07:40

I'm not sure if Barty Jr. was an actual DE at the time of his trial - perhaps he was just a DE-in-training . . . I do think that Voldemort was talking about him when he said that he was the most loyal one and was at Hogwarts because at another point Barty Jr. is referred to in a similar manner.

So, I think there was a special place reserved for him in the DE circle - he had proved his worth and would be welcomed into the fold when he returned.

If he was a DE, then no one would have seen his mark until the end of GoF - and I don't believe it was mentioned. The other DEs got away with just saying they were under the Imperius Curse, etc. because the mark had gone dim and couldn't be seen. So his could also have gone away.

kausarqadir

26-01-2005, 08:28

hi, while reading the above replies, it just occur to me, that if snape is PUBLICLY ANNOUNCED AS A SPY FOR DUMBLEDORE as volde said LEFT FOREVER, then how come he is still working as a spy for the ORDER.
i mean obviously if he has to be the spy, then he must be working in the innermost circle to get all the important information.
also, if they were saying that, UNDERAGE WIZARDS are not included in ORDER. so may be the same case is there for the DEATHEATERS.

Fizzle Snap

26-01-2005, 08:30

We don't know that Snapes current role is that of a spy... I think JK left that vague intentionally. He WAS a spy, but what is he doing now?

Incidently, I think we lose Snape in book 6. Don't know about you guys, but I'll miss him.

JWS92992

26-01-2005, 08:45

hi iam new i need 2 post posts before i graduate and i need help
:D

Alz

27-01-2005, 12:32

I was replying to a post elsewhere from a noob that brought up something I never thought about--was Barty actually a death eater?

We know he wasnt at the graveyard and we never heard of him having the death mark?

Also he was young at the trial and denied everything to do with Voldemort
OK - Addressing point above re Snape and spy - hello, Dumbledore sends him on his way - and we see in OoTP in the Headquarters Snape returning from a mission and telling everyone how he is risking his life ... unlike Sirius ...
I think there is no doubts he is spying - how he is able to do it interests me greatly!

The initial point was a great, great point ...
We are lead to believe - and indeed it is implicated that he was a DE - he was tried as one in a place they are tried - he was tried with other DE's - he was sent to Azkaban as one ... but was he really?
I also wonder what his part was in the DE attack - he didn't seem like a person that would hold any sway - in fact you saw how pathetic he was in court ... so I wonder ...
He did thou come into service of Voldemort with the polyjuice/Moody thing - but you have to ask the question if this wasn't retribution for a false accusation ...
I'm not sure how much mileage is in this - Barty is now dead ... so not sure we will see past it ...
Also - he couldn't be in circle - he was at school ....

Fizzle Snap

27-01-2005, 12:45

Snape doesn't necessarily have to be a spy... think of Hagrid and his very dangerous mission and report... wasn't spying, it was acting as an emissary.

Dumbledore stated out loud and was confirmed by Big Barty at the trial of Karkaroff that Snape was not only cleared but had been employed as a spy before Voldy's disappearance. An outed spy is a useless spy, but certainly still a useful member of the order... I really wonder what it is he's up to...

Also remember, poor Little Barty isn't dead... he was kissed.... *shivers*

Also, Voldy referred to Little Barty as a loyal death eater specifically in GoF... a reference that upset Wormtail and made him very jealous. He usually referred to him as his loyal servant, but unless they were typos there were a couple of places where he stated "death eater"

Weasleyfanforever

27-01-2005, 22:07

I am gonna have to agree with Fizzle Snap, Voldemort does call Barty Jr. a Death Eater:

"She told me that the Triwizard Tournament would be played at Hogwarts this year. She told me that she knew of a faithful Death Eater who would be only too willing to help me, if I could only contact him."

"Why ... by using Bertha Jorkins's information, of course. Use my one faithful Death Eater, stationed at Hogwarts, to ensure that the boy's name was entered into the Goblet of Fire. Use my Death Eater to ensure that the boy won the tournament - that he touched the Triwizard Cup first - the cup which my Death Eater had turned into a Portkey, which would bring him here, beyond the reach of Dumbledore’s help and protection, and into my waiting arms."

Some might argue that Voldemort isn't talking about Barty Crouch Jr., but when he talks about having his Death Eater change it into a Portkey, we know he is. Under the effect of Veritaserum, Crouch Jr. admitted that he was the one that turned it into a portkey...

Boing

28-01-2005, 08:54

Just to add to the point about him in court, I thought when we first saw it that he was pathetic as well, begging and pleading. But then we saw him later and I changed my judgment. In my opinion, he was just trying to use his father as a way to get back to Voldemort - to find him and return to service. His begging was so that he would not be sent to Azkaban, but could rather further attempt to find Voldemort.

Sirius-fan-forever

28-01-2005, 17:40

I think that Barty Crouch was a death eater and voldemort referred to him as 'my most faitful servant' at hogwarts. I think he was talking about the 6 missing death eaters. So I think he was a death eater. We probably didn't hear about the dark mark cuz he was taking the poly juice potion and after his appearence changed we already knew he was not Moody and therefore an evil character, so there was no need to mention the dark mark.

Alz

29-01-2005, 04:32

You know I will come out here and say at best I think he was a DE in training ... he was too pathetic to be a DE ...
They don't seem to react the way he does - they would rather die than betray the Dark Lord - we even saw Lestrange say this ... where as this guy wept like a b .... baby ;)
I would place him in the same category as Worm tail - in service but not a DE ...
In fact I would go as far as to say he was there the same as Wormtail - he was there because he was serving a purpose - perhaps we betrayed his Dad etc - I don't think Wormtail wanted to be a DE - same as I don't think Barty wanted to be a DE ...
How he was perceived isn't conclusive to what his function was ...
I think he was drafted because of the Longbottoms - might have a Pettigrew situation with the Longbottoms.

Sirius-fan-forever

29-01-2005, 07:41

I disagree with blaise....I don't think he was a coward like wormtail. Wormtail waited what 13 yrs to go and find voldemort and that only because he was found out as still being alive. He could not really stay in the normal wizarding community otherwise they would have sent him to azkaban because they probably would figure out that sirius was innocent. I think Wormtail returned because he was cowardly and needed some sort of protection. That's the only reason he decided to go and find Voldemort.
I think maybe Blaise is write that maybe Barty Crouch was maybe a DE in training. After all he was caught torturing the longbottoms after voldemort lost his power. I think that group of DE's and voldemort supporter were more faithful than the ones who denied supporting him or said that they were under the Imperius curse. The whole scene in the court room....I think it was a game on Barty Crouch's part. Plead to your father, deny it and maybe he'll buy your story so you can go find your master again. I think he was just as devoted as Bellatrix Lestrange, only maybe more tactful...trying to get out rather than support him infront of all those wizards.
The fact that his father had to keep him under the Imperius curse kind of supports the argument that he still wanted to go search for Voldemort...and had he infact been free...unlike wormtail, he probably would have searched for him a lot sooner.

Alz

29-01-2005, 11:07

He cried in the court room for Daddy to save him while others around him refused to say a word about Voldemort - they stayed loyal and were willing to go away from their beliefs and to show their loyalty ...
If Barty is Voldemort's most loyal it is because he became bitter and twisted over time - back then he was a scared young boy - not the material we have come to associate with DE's ... once again it's just my opinion ... :D

I dont doubt he was tried as a DE - I dont doubt people saw him as such - I just cant help but feel he was used by the DE's to get to the Longbottoms

Boing

03-02-2005, 07:44

I have to agree with what I said before (:D ) and what SFF said as well - Barty Jr. was putting on an act in front of the courtroom. We didn't see looks of disdain or anything coming from the Lestranges, so I think he let them in on what he was going to do and where he would go if they set him free. He was the only one with much of a chance because his dad was there, so it makes sense.

I think he was a cold, calculating kind of guy and just put on a show for everyone.

As for him being a DE - the point about DE-in-training is interesting because he was so young. Perhaps we will see other children of DEs enter into this kind of service over the next few books.

Alz

03-02-2005, 12:39

Well see - I don't think that would have flied with Voldemort - seeing one of his loyal supporters crying and begging not to be sent to Azkaban ...
I can see your point - but it was in contrast to the others that were with him - and what purpose would it serve them if they are all pig headed and refuse to back down over their support of the Dark Lord - and yet another equal cries like a baby?
Nope - I think he was really boned - he knew he was going to a dark and nasty place and he didn't have it about him like his fellow DE's - he wasn't that strong and loyal at that time!

Sirius-fan-forever

03-02-2005, 20:29

My thinking is that yes I would try to get out of a dark and nasty place as much as I could. But even if I showed the guts that Bellatrix and the other showed, how did it help me in anyway. It's kind of counter productive to be in jail and try to bring your evil Lord back in power. You couldn't sit in prison and help him. Barty Crouch played to his parents emotions to get out. His dad didn't buy his story during the trial but his mum did. I'd like to believe that this what he wanted all along though maybe I'm wrong and he only thought of helping voldemort after. But somehow I doubt that voldemort would call him his most faithful servant if he had a change of plan only after he got out of prison...because he didn't really have high regards for wormtail who came from the same boat. :)

Boing

04-02-2005, 09:30

Thanks for the support, SFF! :)

I think that Barty really thought he would get off, that his dad would let him go and then he could just return. As we saw, though, he then convinced his parents to get him out anyway. I don't think it was just that he wanted to get out of Azkaban, but that after his first attempt at returning to Voldemort, he quickly formulated another to get out of Azkaban and get back . . .

Alz

05-02-2005, 03:05

See, I can accept and validate your point - but something doesnt seem right to me ...

I still think he was either taken to the Longbottoms by force or he did a Pettigrew - he sold out his friends and as such had to be there when the DE's.
Remeber they were sent to the Longbottoms - someone told them the Longbottoms might have information on the whereabouts of Voldemort ... I still think Barty was playing the Pettigrew - he has information coming back from Daddy he used to influence with Voldemort.
I think that is why he reacted the way he did - didnt show loyalty like the others because he wasnt - he was someone looking to be more than they were, he was caught out and now he was being tried as a DE ... IMHO :D

Boing

05-02-2005, 06:11

Oooh, I like the idea that he gave the DEs information about the Longbottoms - that is good thinking right there! :D

Along the lines of him putting on an act or not in the courtroom, how about how he reacts when Harry tells him what happened in the graveyard.

He gets so upset that Voldemort forgave the other DEs - he says that if there's one thing he can't stand, it's a DE who walked free . . .there is an interesting double standard he raises for himself. Here's a quote:

"I asked you whether he forgave the scum who never even went to look for him. Those treacherous cowards who wouldn't even brave Azkaban for him . . . If there's one thing I hate more than any other, it's a Death Eater who walked free. . . . Tell me he [Voldemort] told them that I, I alone remained faithful . . .prepared to risk everything to deliver to him the one thing he wanted above all . . . you"

Most of the ellipses I put in myself, but the last two were in the book. So, now here it seems he is upset over those who didn't go to Azkaban. Wouldn't that seem counter to what happened earlier?

We do find out from him later that Voldemort came to his house and set him free of the Imperius Curse, asked him to set himself up at Hogwarts, etc. So, in that sense, Voldemort must have seen Barty as the most faithful servant.

I don't really know where I'm going with this, sorry. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree about the courtroom scene! :D

As for the original question of whether or not he was a DE - I think Voldemort is referring to Crouch, Jr. when he talks about the six missing DEs and he says his most faithful servant remains at Hogwarts. I have to wonder about Snape, though - as I think we've all assumed that Snape is a double spy within Voldemort's circle . . . so, how would Snape have fit in there - or was Snape there that night in the circle? And Voldemort skipped over him? Hmmm . . .

Alz

05-02-2005, 10:59

"I asked you whether he forgave the scum who never even went to look for him. Those treacherous cowards who wouldn't even brave Azkaban for him . . . If there's one thing I hate more than any other, it's a Death Eater who walked free. . . . Tell me he [Voldemort] told them that I, I alone remained faithful . . .prepared to risk everything to deliver to him the one thing he wanted above all . . . you"

Well - I am feeling pretty smug about now ...
Why would he say that if indeed he was a DE that cried like a baby in court!
Dont you see - he wasnt crying because he was a DE and being sent to Azkaban - he was crying like a B because he wasnt a DE and was instead forced to be there at the time the Longbottom's were attacked!
What he became after is most loyal - but then he would have been pretty upset at the Wizarding world because he was sentanced and tried ...
I dont think he even lifted a wand at the Longbottoms - he was there for a reason ;)