Reading the Signs

[Boing]

In GoF, Sirius sends Harry a note -

"Harry -

I'm flying north immediately. This news about your scar is the latest in a series of strange rumors that have reached me here. If it hurts again, go straight to Dumbledore - they're saying he's got Mad-Eye out of retirement, which means he's reading the signs, even if no one else is. . . . "

When I first read this, I thought that he was referring to the signs of Voldemort returning, which seems to be the most logical explanation. However, this begs the question of what are the signs and how does Dumbledore know what they are to be looking for them?

Is it as simple as the display at the Quidditch World Cup? That hardly seems like too much of a sign . . .

So, how does Dumbledore know what signs to be looking for? Does this have something to do with his "plan"? Does this have to do with the watch of planets he wears? Or could this be related to time travel?

Does Dumbledore know what is going to happen ahead of everyone else? Are these signs something that leads up to the fulfillment of the prophecy?

Please share your thoughts!!

[Sirius-fan-forever]

I think it could be a number of things that dumledore was keeping an eye on. First of all the activity of the death eaters at the world cup, the appearence of the dark sign, the missing Bertha Jorkins, and problems at Moody's before he was to come to Hogwarts. I mean things like these probably arose suspicion in dumbledore's mind. I bet he had other people looking out for things as well. Although the order was not formally operating till then it could have operating in an unoffcial sort of way...like members keeping an eye on different areas that they were a part of. I think him reading signs of these things was him being smart and cautious because him, of all people, knew that Voldemort is probably getting stronger especially now that he has wormtail to help him out.

[Alz]

I have to revert to a more doubting attitude when it comes to our great Headmaster ...
The question I would beg to ask is how does Sirius know that Dumbledore can tell the signs?
Is this another indicator in the 'Who fired the spell at Sirius' OoTP Veil moment?
I find it strange that if Sirius knew any details about Harry scar he didn't share - or is it because he is told not to share?
Is it possible that the significance of the scar was known - but an diversified reason for it was shared with those concerned about Harry?
What I mean to say - could Dumbledore be all to knowing what the scar was about - but instead opted for to tell others a slightly different story just because it serves his purpose for Harry to be connected to Voldemort?
Doesn't Dumbledore say back in PS/SS he could have removed the scar but thinks they are worth keeping?
I think we need to look at Dumbledore's 'plan' and how this could be an aid to him to have Voldemort and Harry so connected - because I am sure that whatever Harry feels when Voldemort is happy and evil - Voldemort feels when Harry is loving and caring - because they seem to be equal and opposites of each others emotions ...

[Tinkerbell]

I agree with a lot of what others have said in this thread, but have to add that I think a lot of what Sirius is intimating is that the MoM are complete crap and could not organise themselves out of a paper bag! Dumbledore is keeping his fingers on the pulse and ensuring that Harry, and indeed all his other students, are safe. I do believe that this is one of the reasons that Dumbledore has arranged with Mad Eye Moody to undertake showing the students the Unforgiveable Curses - even tho it was Barty Jr who did the teaching in the end I think it was the intention of Dumbledore to equip his students regardless of the feelings of the MoM for the Curses, as they did not seem to know what the hell was going on anyway!!

[Alz]

Actually, now I re-read the initial question - it does make you wonder ...

I suppose in the ultimate response to that - Dumbledore watched Voldemort rise, get his supports and wreak the havoc he did in the Wizarding world - if anyone knows the signs it should be the person who seems to have made it his job to remove such elements.
But I wonder what first drew Dumbledore's attention to the fact Voldemort had assumed control and was on the rise the first time around?
Was it simply as blatant as people being attacked and the dark mark left hanging around - or was it a more quiet and subversive campaign Voldemort waged to get into power and his followers behind him?
I guess that would be my best guess - Dumbledore saw the rise of Voldemort and was able to attribute the recent events back to those events.

[Boing]

It's an interesting point Blaise brings up about Sirius's knowledge of Dumbledore's - um - knowledge . . . :o Sorry, it's still early in the morning.

Because Sirius tells Harry to go straight to Dumbledore if his scar hurts again - Sirius seems to know what the scar means as well. Later in the book, Dumbledore tells Harry that Harry's not the only one who has been corresponding with Sirius . . . that Dumbledore has as well. He says it in response to Harry being surprised that Dumbledore knew his scar was hurting long before he told him.

Now, what are they corresponding about and, if Dumbledore knew Harry's scar was hurting, why didn't he try to intervene earlier and talk to Harry about it? Why does Dumbledore always wait until it's almost too late before he steps in? (sorry, that's off topic, but it needs to be asked)

[Alz]

..because someone might have forced his hand again?
That is DiE fodder again ;)

If Dumbledore even just suspected that there was a chance the pain was more than just Voldemort's feelin's - you would have expected him to have the lessons with Snape earlier on ... in fact why wait till it got so bad?
I think Dumbledore was using Harry's ability to his own benefit until the point others were noticing and asking questions - then he stepped up to the plate and ended it ...
But then again - I wear my DiE badge with pride :D

[Sirius-fan-forever]

Hey...How come everyone's always suspecting dumbledore of having 'plans' :( I am big dumbledore fan and though I am mad he hid stuff from Harry, I think he was justified because he cared for him so much and didn't want to see him dealing with all this information from when he was too young to handle it. As for reading signs, he probably didn't know the exact connections between the pain and the scar. I mean Harry himself didn't exactly know till Ootp that the pains were related to voldemort's feelings. I think despite his wishes to keep certain things a secret, he definitely wouldn't have want any harm to come to Harry. If he believed that the scar had something to do with the connections between harry and voldemort stronger, he probably would have started the occumelency lessons sooner.
I agree that dumbledore's has causes a lot of unneccessary problems by being secretive, only I chose to see it as his love for Harry as opposed to him using Harry as a weapon or a source of information for his plans. :)

[Alz]

In OoTP - when he talks about the Prophecy with Harry - he mentions 'his plan' - he does have an agenda ;)
You know by shielding someone from hurt you can cause them just as much ... I think Dumbledore's actions are open to question - I think JKR is relying on that fact as well ...
His actions on face value are easy to consume, they taste nice and don't leave any unpleasant feelings - unless you choke slightly while consuming them - then is can be uncomfortable and you question what you ate ...


.... damn that was a good analogy wasn't it :D

[Boing]

LOL, Blaise! Nice one!

Yeah, Dumbledore's mention of his "plan" started getting me thinking about what else he could mean by that. Also, I have to agree that he should have stepped in earlier. He was the one who said that he could have gotten rid of the scar in the first place, but that it could come in handy, so he didn't. I think he has known that Harry's scar held a link to Voldemort for awhile.

[Tinkerbell]

You know by shielding someone from hurt you can cause them just as much ... I think Dumbledore's actions are open to question - I think JKR is relying on that fact as well ...


That is very true, and I think Harry has got to the stage that he needs people to be honest with him - with what Dumbledore told him in OotP following Sirius' death, it seemed apparent to me that poor Harry had a lot of trouble assimilating this information and would probably have been much happier about this had he learnt it some years befoe. However, wouldn't have made much of a Septology then would it.... :o :D

[Sirius-fan-forever]

I guess I agree with you blaise about the 'plans', I only differed in the sense that dumbledore made them to protect Harry as opposed to using him to fight the war against voldemort. I also agree with that dumbledore could have avoided a lot of trouble and complications if he had been honest but still I think like you said he did it to shield and not for any ultimately worse motives than that. :p

[Alz]

I suppose we should look back to the intial question was - was Dumbledore actually reading signals no-one else could see - or signs no-one else knew about?
Was it a flippant comment or is there actually basis to this comment Sirius made?
If so, how would Black know - because he must have seen or known something from Dumbledore to make him come out with that?

[Boing]

Well, in the book, Sirius says that Dumbledore's reading the signs, even if nobody else is. So that made me immediately think of the Order. Perhaps there are other from the Order who know what the signs are as well.

What's interesting is that after Sirius's letter is read, Ron says, "what signs?" and the question is never answered and never revisited. So that made me think that perhaps these signs were interesting or we should come back to them - because they seemed to be glossed over . . .