View Full Version : The Fidelus Charm???
I don't know who long i've been trying to figure this out.... and understand the whole Fidelus Charm/Secret Keeper deal.
Ok, The Fidelus Charm basically hides people and places from everyone and the only way to find the hidden person/place is to be told in writing or in person by the secret keeper.... got that.... makes sense .... no problem there...
The problem I have is back at the beginning of the series.... when Pettigrew told Voldemort the secret.... but who or what was supposed to be hidden? Was it James and Lilly? James, Lilly and Harry? Their house? (like grimauld place?)
I know this has probably been discussed 1000 times. I'm sorry to being it up again, but it still confuses the heck out of me.
The following is where I am still lost.... How did Sirius and Hagrid find the "Hideout" Immediately after the attack??? Sirius may have been told, but I think Pettigrew would have run right out to tell Voldemort, not waste time telling Sirius....
But, How did Hagrid know? Dumbledore couldn't have given the secret up.
So I'm wondering how the spell is broken? Is it when the people it's protecting are killed? But Harry wasn't... so that leaves 2 possibilities:
1) only James and Lilly were protected?? --- so Voldemort could have found Harry????
2) the house was under the protection of the Fidelus Charm??
Well, I dont really think that their house was under the protection, because during PoA, I do think i remember Filch saying something along the lines of "Even if he'd had his nose pressed up against their sitting room window he wouldn't have been able to find them." To me that seems to mean that he could have actually pressed his nose against the window and that the house itself wasn't hidden..
.. So i think that instead the people inside it were. I think that the Charm was really placed upon the Potters as a family (all 3 - James, Lily, and Harry), yet done at the same time so that when one of them was killed, it may have automatically been broken for all of them?
I do think that Sirius already knew because he had originally been the choice for Secret Keeper and possibly the Charm was just switched from him to Pettigrew, so he already knew the secret? If not, then I think the Potters would have insisted that he be told immediately because he was one of those they most trusted..
As for Hagrid, Dumbledore may have had him told because Hagrid does run a lot of errands for him and Dumbledore may have thought he might need Hagrid to do something for him involving the Potters at some point in time.. Hagrid was in the Order at this point already so telling Hagrid was probably less of a risk that it may have seemed..
Sirius Potter Fan
19-04-2005, 06:28
Hagrid was in the Order at this point already so telling Hagrid was probably less of a risk that it may have seemed..
well...I'm not too shure about that point...how many times has Hagrid let slip important information??? several just in SS!
It seems there is alot more to be discovered about the Fidelus charm doesn't it? because if the charm was the house itself... Pettigrew HAD to be the only one who knew the location. otherwise the information could have been "spilled" from anyone. It is strongly implied that there is only the one secret keeper...if anyone else knows, that makes it useless to have a "secret keeper" My guess is that once the secret has been spilled, the spell is broken. Probably why Sirius was too late to stop Voldemort. once Pettigrew spilled his guts, the charm was broken, and the location was open, so Sirius might have alost imediately known what happened, but was too late in getting there (and why did he take his motorcycle instead of aparating?), and Hagrid just behind him.
My guess is that once the secret has been spilled, the spell is broken. Probably why Sirius was too late to stop Voldemort. once Pettigrew spilled his guts, the charm was broken, and the location was open, so Sirius might have alost imediately known what happened, but was too late in getting there (and why did he take his motorcycle instead of aparating?), and Hagrid just behind him.
That's where I get frustrated though... because we know Dumbledore told many people where the HQ of the Order was. Allowing them to see it. So essentially he spilled that secret.
I do think that Sirius already knew because he had originally been the choice for Secret Keeper and possibly the Charm was just switched from him to Pettigrew, so he already knew the secret?
But Sirius was never the secret keeper -- He said no before the charm was cast.
Maybe it's just an inconsistency that JKR missed or didn't think about. :(
Hermione
19-04-2005, 14:52
Did Sirus say no? I thought he said to go with wormtail because it was the perfect distraction, everyone would assume it was him.
Did he say no?
Fortescue
30-04-2005, 09:43
I think it was either James or Sirius, probably James who placed the Fidelius Charm on Wormtail. Sirius knew of the location only because Wormtail invited him in the same way that Dumbledore invited Harry to Grimmauld Place. If I recall correctly, the charm was in place for a week before Wormtail spilled. Sirius said he went there because he had gone to Wormtail's hideout to check on him and found him gone. He though it was unusual that he wasn't there and went straight to the Potter's house to find the distruction.
The question I still have is if Sirius knew where the Potter's lived before James placed the charm on Wormtail, does the charm wipe out the memory of the location that everyone had prior to the charm being cast?
I was under the impression that the Potter's were moved and only Pettigrew knew where they were. Sirius said to switch to him because he would be suspected and prolly tortured for information, so it is likely he didn't have the information to give.
But then that doesn't explain how Sirius knew where to go, unless he used his skills as a dog to follow Peter's trail when he found him gone? Of course, how does a dog ride a motorbike?
Sirius Potter Fan
30-04-2005, 19:21
I was under the impression that the Potter's were moved and only Pettigrew knew where they were. Sirius said to switch to him because he would be suspected and prolly tortured for information, so it is likely he didn't have the information to give.
But then that doesn't explain how Sirius knew where to go, unless he used his skills as a dog to follow Peter's trail when he found him gone? Of course, how does a dog ride a motorbike?
you know, this actualy makes a little sense...I have always wondered if Sirius knew where they were, why did he take the time to casualy ride the motor bike there...Why didn't he just aparate if he knew where he was going. I don't think a dog could ride the motor bike, but perhaps he would transform, sniff to get a direction, transform back ride a bit, so on. seems a bit arduous, but might be a posibility. But...another thing, how would he know that Peter went to the potters? maybe peter went somewhere else?...no we know that he went there, but why did he need to go. But Sirius wouldn't have known that he went there, unless he left a note or something like that, but why would he do that? OK...I think I have confused myself now :) :confused:
Fortescue
06-05-2005, 16:29
Sirius knew where the Potter's were - they had been in hiding for a week before the attack. I don't think his doggy sense had anything to do with it.
The way the Fidelius Charm works is that the person who is the Secret Keeper is the only one who can give away the location of the people or thing being protected. Since Sirius wasn't the Secret Keeper, it wouldn't have mattered whether he was tortured for the location and told Voldemort the exact address of where the Potter's were hidden, without an invite from the real Secret Keeper, Voldemort would never find them.
"How does that work?" said Madam Rosmerta, breathless with interest. Professor Flitwick cleared his throat.
"An immensely complex spell," he said squeakily, "involving the magical concealment of a secret inside a single, living soul. The information is hidden inside the chosen person, or Secret-Keeper, and is henceforth impossible to find - unless, of course, the Secret-Keeper chooses to divulge it. As long as the Secret-Keeper refused to speak, You-Know-Who could search the village where Lily and James were staying for years and never find them, not even if he had his nose pressed against their sitting room window!" (PoA, pg 205 US)
Back to the original question of how Hagrid would have known where the Potter's were - it's the same as in OotP and Grimmauld Place. After the Potter's Fidelius Charm was in place and the Potter's were in hiding, I'm sure their friends were given the location in the same way that Harry was given his invite to Grimmauld Place. Once the charm was in place, the only way Voldemort could find the Potter's was if Wormtail disclosed the location personally, which of course, he did.
Oo - I do think Fort is on the same page as i am! :D
Hagrid would not have been a risk at all, for the reasons said above - he cannot disclose the information to anyone because he does not have the power to do so, and so the fact that he tends to spill certain information is irrelevant..
My guess is that once the secret has been spilled, the spell is broken. Probably why Sirius was too late to stop Voldemort. once Pettigrew spilled his guts, the charm was broken, and the location was open, so Sirius might have alost imediately known what happened, but was too late in getting there (and why did he take his motorcycle instead of aparating?), and Hagrid just behind him.
I don't think that just spilling the secret is enough to break the spell. As Athena brought up, Dumbledore is able to inform many of the whereabouts of the Order's Headquarters, and so this cannot be the only determining factor in the breakage of the spell..
As for taking his motorcycle instead of apparating, maybe Sirius was somewhere like Hogwarts where he was unable to Apparate or Disapparate. Also, maybe he wanted to take his motorcycle because he was unsure of what he would find once he reached the Potters -- maybe he had godfather's intuition or something (yes i make this stuff up) and thought he might have to rescue Harry and knew he could not take him with him if he was Apparating..
But Sirius was never the secret keeper -- He said no before the charm was cast.
I think i've always been under the impression that Sirius was the Secret Keeper for a very short time and then the Potters really did physically switch to Peter.. is there a quote anywhere for any of this?
“Harry. I as good as killed them,” he croaked. “I persuaded Lily and James to change to Peter at the last moment, persuaded them to use him as Secret-Keeper instead of me. I’m to blame, I know it. The night they died, I’d arranged to check on Peter, make sure he was still safe, but when I arrived at his hiding place, he’d gone. Yet there was no sign of a struggle. It didn’t feel right. I was scared. I set out for your parents’ house straight away. And when I saw their house destroyed, and their bodies. I realized what Peter must’ve done. what I’d done.”
From the above quote from POA, I got that Sirius was never the secret keeper. It could just be the way I read it. That he had them change to Peter before he was ever made the secret keeper.
Anyway, That's the quote I was able to find Tonks ;)
From the above quote from POA, I got that Sirius was never the secret keeper. It could just be the way I read it. That he had them change to Peter before he was ever made the secret keeper.
Anyway, That's the quote I was able to find Tonks ;)
Ok thanks Athena - I'd say from that that you're right then.. i think i just misinterpreted it the first 20 times i read it ;)
Alright, now if is the case, i'm going to have to say that i still think Sirius would have known where the Potters were hiding because they would have had Peter tell him. They definitely still trusted Sirius -- he was the one who convinced them to switch to Pettigrew after all.. and i think this would have been somewhat of the same situation as Hagrid. There would be no worry about Voldemort torturing him even, because even if he knows the secret, he was no longer the Secret Keeper.. there would be no danger in him knowing..
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