Neville and the Prophecy

[Alz]

What is the significance of Neville being the other boy to whom the prophecy might have referred?

Finally, I am answering the poll question! I am sorry it has taken so long, but let me start by saying how glad I am that this was the question that received the most votes, because this was the one that I most wanted to answer. Some of you might not like what I am going to say – but I'll address that issue at the end of my response!

To recap: Neville was born on the 30th of July, the day before Harry, so he too was born 'as the seventh month dies'. His parents, who were both famous Aurors, had 'thrice defied' Voldemort, just as Lily and James had. Voldemort was therefore presented with the choice of two baby boys to whom the prophecy might apply. However, he did not entirely realise what the implications of attacking them might be, because he had not heard the entire prophecy. As Dumbledore says:

'He [the eavesdropper] only heard the beginning, the part foretelling the birth of a boy in July to parents who had thrice defied Voldemort. Consequently, he could not warn his master that to attack you would be to risk transferring power to you.'

In effect, the prophecy gave Voldemort the choice of two candidates for his possible nemesis. In choosing which boy to murder, he was also (without realising it) choosing which boy to anoint as the Chosen One – to give him tools no other wizard possessed – the scar and the ability it conferred, a magical window into Voldemort's mind.

So what would have happened if Voldemort had decided that the pure-blood, not the half-blood, was the bigger threat? What would have happened if he had attacked Neville instead? Harry wonders this during the course of 'Half-Blood Prince' and concludes, rightly, that the answer hinges on whether or not one of Neville's parents would have been able, or prepared, to die for their son in the way that Lily died for Harry. If they hadn't, Neville would have been killed outright. Had Frank or Alice thrown themselves in front of Neville, however, the killing curse would have rebounded just as it did in Harry's case, and Neville would have been the one who survived with the lightning scar. What would this have meant? Would a Neville bearing the lightning scar have been as successful at evading Voldemort as Harry has been? Would Neville have had the qualities that have enabled Harry to remain strong and sane throughout all of his many ordeals? Although Dumbledore does not say as much, he does not believe so: he believes Voldemort did indeed choose the boy most likely to be able to topple him, for Harry's survival has not depended wholly or even mainly upon his scar.

So where does this leave Neville, the boy who was so nearly King? Well, it does not give him either hidden powers or a mysterious destiny. He remains a 'normal' wizarding boy, albeit one with a past, in its way, as tragic as Harry's. As you saw in 'Order of the Phoenix,' however, Neville is not without his own latent strengths. It remains to be seen how he will feel if he ever finds out how close he came to being the Chosen One.

Some of you, who have been convinced that the prophecy marked Neville, in some mystical fashion, for a fate intertwined with Harry's, may find this answer rather dull. Yet I was making what I felt was a significant point about Harry and Voldemort, and about prophecies themselves, in showing Neville as the also-ran. If neither boy was 'pre-ordained' before Voldemort's attack to become his possible vanquisher, then the prophecy (like the one the witches make to Macbeth, if anyone has read the play of the same name) becomes the catalyst for a situation that would never have occurred if it had not been made. Harry is propelled into a terrifying position he might never have sought, while Neville remains the tantalising 'might-have-been'. Destiny is a name often given in retrospect to choices that had dramatic consequences.

Of course, none of this should be taken to mean that Neville does not have a significant part to play in the last two novels, or the fight against Voldemort. As for the prophecy itself, it remains ambiguous, not only to readers, but to my characters. Prophecies (think of Nostradamus!) are usually open to many different interpretations. That is both their strength and their weakness.

OK - so anyone want to get started on a dissection of this little gem from JKR? ;)

[Boing]

Well, I'll post what I put in Hedwig's section:

I think this squashes the idea that Neville and Harry are twins as she specifically refers to separate parents.

However, I think that an interesting discussion could be whether or not Neville could have survived Voldemort's attack that night. She brings up whether or not his parents would have done what Harry's did - was there something wrong with his relationship with his parents or just something up with them that they wouldn't have sacrificed their lives to save him?

Also, what if Neville does find out (which I think he will have to) . . . will this make him jealous? Angry? Relieved? Could it somehow turn him against Harry?

JKR again reinforces that the series is all about choices and the consequences resulting from choices we make, even if those choices were years and years ago.

Blaise, do you want us to discuss all the things in this one thread or can we make our own for our own thoughts??? Let me know and I'll start a couple if I can! :D

[Fortescue]

I don't have a problem with it - I never thought the prophecy referred to Neville in any way. She gave a lot of 'what ifs' regarding Neville and what might have happened had Voldemort chosen him. It reminds me of what Dumbledore said to Harry at the end of PoA, "The consequences of our actions are always so complicated, so diverse, that predicting the future is a very difficult business indeed..." (PoA, pg 426 US) All the 'what ifs' point to the fact that even if Neville's mother would have sacrificed herself to save him and Neville could have survived the initial attack from Voldemort, that Neville probably wouldn't have survived as long against Voldemort as Harry has done.

Although Dumbledore does not say as much, he does not believe so: he believes Voldemort did indeed choose the boy most likely to be able to topple him, for Harry's survival has not depended wholly or even mainly upon his scar.

She hinted at the fact that there is indeed something more to Harry then just the fact that Voldemort marked him as his equal. In one of her interviews, she also mentioned that Harry is indeed getting stronger, so I see a lot of discoveries for Harry regarding his power and abilities.



Of course, none of this should be taken to mean that Neville does not have a significant part to play in the last two novels, or the fight against Voldemort. As for the prophecy itself, it remains ambiguous, not only to readers, but to my characters. Prophecies (think of Nostradamus!) are usually open to many different interpretations. That is both their strength and their weakness.

I thought that Neville would play a bigger part in the end - It could be that his new wand helps him to discover his own talents. I also like the hint that he could be part of the final fight against Voldemort.

This does lay to rest the argument that the prophecy referred to someone other then Harry and Voldemort. I never thought the prophecy had any hidden meanings - it seemed pretty straight forward, and I think JKR basically said the same thing.

In effect, the prophecy gave Voldemort the choice of two candidates for his possible nemesis. In choosing which boy to murder, he was also (without realising it) choosing which boy to anoint as the Chosen One – to give him tools no other wizard possessed – the scar and the ability it conferred, a magical window into Voldemort's mind.

This sounds like the only thing Harry got from Voldemort is what we already know about in regards to Harry speaking Parseltongue and seeing into Voldemort's mind. There doesn't seem to be any indication or hint that Harry got any other immense powers from Voldemort which might pop out later.

I think she raised a few more questions though regarding how powerful Neville will become and what angst Harry will have to indure as he continues to wonder throughout HBP if it all was a mistake and the prophecy really referred to Neville.

[kashlie]

he did not entirely realise what the implications of attacking them might be

I take this to mean that Voldemort attacked both of them, but not knowing the prophecy in full, sent someone else after the Longbottoms, and went for Harry himself. What would have happened if he had of sent someone else to kill Harry? I don't think the attack on Neville actually happened though, because of Voldemort losing his power. I do think he would have killed them both though, but went for Harry first.



So where does this leave Neville, the boy who was so nearly King?


Why the reference to royalty?

[Sir Cadogan]

[...] However, I think that an interesting discussion could be whether or not Neville could have survived Voldemort's attack that night. She brings up whether or not his parents would have done what Harry's did - was there something wrong with his relationship with his parents or just something up with them that they wouldn't have sacrificed their lives to save him?
Hadn't they already been attacked and tortured by Bellatrix at that time? If that is the case (if I remember correctly) there would have been no way for them to protect Neville (cf. their state in St Mungo's).

Also, what if Neville does find out (which I think he will have to) . . . will this make him jealous? Angry? Relieved? Could it somehow turn him against Harry?
I'm certain that Neville's feeling is more likely to be relief than anything else. With his respect and affection having grown towards Harry (through membership in DA, among other things), Neville won't turn against Harry - as far as I can see.

JKR again reinforces that the series is all about choices and the consequences resulting from choices we make, even if those choices were years and years ago.
Yeah, this is one of my favourite motifs in the whole series. JKR has strong morals, although it doesn't show very often.

[Boing]

Hadn't they already been attacked and tortured by Bellatrix at that time? If that is the case (if I remember correctly) there would have been no way for them to protect Neville (cf. their state in St Mungo's).




I believe that the Longbottoms were attacked post Harry attack. That, in fact, it was after Voldemort had disappeared and the Lestranges were looking for information as to where the Dark Lord might have gone - why they would go and ask the Longbottoms is a question that is indeed intriguing and has yet to be answered . . .

[Fortescue]

Also, what if Neville does find out (which I think he will have to) . . . will this make him jealous? Angry? Relieved? Could it somehow turn him against Harry?

Boingy - you sound just like Rita Skeeter there, "jealous? angry? relieved?" LOL ... that line from the book just popped back in my head when I read this :D

Hadn't they already been attacked and tortured by Bellatrix at that time? If that is the case (if I remember correctly) there would have been no way for them to protect Neville (cf. their state in St Mungo's).

The Longbottoms were attacked after Voldemort disappeared. That's why Bellatrix tortured them was to see if they knew where Voldemort had gone.

I think JKR was just putting a 'what if' in there. I'm sure she's been to all the fan sites reading the speculation about Neville being the one the prophecy spoke of, or being the third person the prophecy spoke of etc. Lots of crazy speculations out there - one or two of them are probably mine :D


I'm certain that Neville's feeling is more likely to be relief than anything else. With his respect and affection having grown towards Harry (through membership in DA, among other things), Neville won't turn against Harry - as far as I can see.

I'm sure he will feel some sense of relief, but I think it will also ruffle him up a bit more knowing how close he came to possibly being someone others looked up to the way that people do Harry. If you think about Neville's life; his grandmother openly bad-mouths his magic talent in front of people - his uncle went to dangerous lengths to test Neville for any sign of magic. I do think his friendship with Harry and the realization of what Harry is destined to do will light a fire under Neville and he will pledge his complete loyalty and support to Harry - if Neville does become more "wizardly" as JKR hinted, that might be a good thing for Harry.

[kashlie]

I thought about Neville's parents this afternoon, and wonder if the gum wrappers will have anything to do with this. His mother's love so strong for him, perhaps, that it is keeping her somewhat sane?
Or does this show that Neville's father did not have the same admiration for his son as his mother did? Maybe the fact that they DIDN'T die is important.
I still would like to know why JKR referred to Neville as one who came so close to being King.
Harry has never been referred to as a king, has he? No, just the Chosen One, as JKR says herself...

It remains to be seen how he will feel if he ever finds out how close he came to being the Chosen One.

Referring to Neville as both close to being King and the Chosen One is a bit odd. I don't think he is the Half Blood Prince, but it doesn't mean he hasn't got ties to him.

[Sirius Potter Fan]

Hate to admit it, but I found JKR's answer a little dissapointing. I mean, it confirmed what I already firmly believed that indeed Harry is the chosen one. And that Nevil's powers are growning and that he will play a role in the end. Most of it just recaps what we allready know, or asks questions that are now more or less irrelevent, like would the longbottoms have sacrificed themsleves for Nevil the way Lily did for Harry. I mean that's water under the bridge now isn't it. I mean, it almost like she just skirted the real question, and has left the real "significance" unanswered, she (as usual) "hints" at possibilities.

Would Neville have had the qualities that have enabled Harry to remain strong and sane throughout all of his many ordeals? Although Dumbledore does not say as much, he does not believe so: he believes Voldemort did indeed choose the boy most likely to be able to topple him, for Harry's survival has not depended wholly or even mainly upon his scar.

I mean the answer to this is easy enough really, Harry having to go to the Dursleys, and endure life there is what made him so strong. Nevil would have grown up a celebrity, and known it all along. He would have been pampered and celebrated. I can see him ending up a bit like Lockheart.

Dumbledore knew that Harry not only needed the protection of Lily's blood, but also to grow up away from the fame that would be his.


Now, the one interesting thing I got here was the reference:

So where does this leave Neville, the boy who was so nearly King?

What is this "King"? So far, we haven't heard of any "Royalty" in the wizarding world, the highest official we know of is the Minister of Magic. Could it be that at the defeat of Voldemort Harry will be made the honorary wizarding King? (sounds Hokey to me though)

Then there is:
the scar and the ability it conferred, a magical window into Voldemort's mind.

not really alot here, but it does make me think that we will see more from the old lightning bolt in the future. Perhaps once Harry becomes proficient at Occlumency, he will be able to tap in to Voldemort more without Voldemort knowing.

anyway. . . still a little dissapointed. . . maybe the reason she said
but let me start by saying how glad I am that this was the question that received the most votes, because this was the one that I most wanted to answer.

was because she could answer that question without giving away anything of significance. :(

[Nagini]

I was a little disapointed to see that Neville wasn't going to be the "other" mentioned and discussed at great thing here in the prophecy, but that the prophecy related to Harry and Harry only.

What puzzled me about what Jo Rowling siad is that there is no mention of not being able to hurt a baby. I had thought that since Hermione stated in OoTP when Harry was about to attack a Death Eater that was travelling through time that babies couldn't or shouldn't be harmed and that was partly why the spell went wrong and also party because of Lily's protection on Harry.

But Voldemort could have attacked Neville and killed him if his neither of his parents saw fit to risk their lives for him.

Another factor in this, is that Neville's parents most likely wouldn't have used Pettigrew as their secret keeper and I find it interesting that JKR gave no mention of this. Was this because it wasn't important or could the Secret Keeper for the Longbottoms have been someone that Voldemort wouldn't have been able to reach? *cough*Dumbledore*cough*

As with the person who mentioned the reference JKR made to Neville nearly being King. I too would like to know - King of what? Is this perhaps Jo Rowling's way of hinting at the possible Half Blood Prince? We know its NOT Harry and we know that Neville is pure blood. Is this just another play of words?

[Sirius Potter Fan]

As with the person who mentioned the reference JKR made to Neville nearly being King. I too would like to know - King of what? Is this perhaps Jo Rowling's way of hinting at the possible Half Blood Prince? We know its NOT Harry and we know that Neville is pure blood. Is this just another play of words?

That thought had occured to me as well, but the "Prince" is the son of the "King" I mean Nevil is a pure blood, and could have a son with a muggle, making the child a half blood, but. . . well. . . don't think Nevil is that. . . active. . . yet :eek: And, neither is Harry! So this line seems to be a dead end.

If Nevil was "almost King" I would assume (nasty habit, I know) that this makes Harry King. . . but of what???? :confused: I just don't know if this is something we need to dig into, or if this is just a red hering again, just a play on "the boy who would be king" thing.

[Sir Cadogan]

King? As in: "focus of attention, target of admiration, everybody's darling"? I think that's what JKR meant ... but I can't be sure, of course. ;)

[Alz]

In effect, the prophecy gave Voldemort the choice of two candidates for his possible nemesis. In choosing which boy to murder, he was also (without realising it) choosing which boy to anoint as the Chosen One – to give him tools no other wizard possessed – the scar and the ability it conferred, a magical window into Voldemort's mind.

I think someone indicated this before but worthy of note since JKR made the point herself - and she knows best ;)

So what would have happened if Voldemort had decided that the pure-blood, not the half-blood, was the bigger threat? What would have happened if he had attacked Neville instead? Harry wonders this during the course of 'Half-Blood Prince' and concludes, rightly, that the answer hinges on whether or not one of Neville's parents would have been able, or prepared, to die for their son in the way that Lily died for Harry. If they hadn't, Neville would have been killed outright. Had Frank or Alice thrown themselves in front of Neville, however, the killing curse would have rebounded just as it did in Harry's case, and Neville would have been the one who survived with the lightning scar. What would this have meant?

Why would Harry be even asking himself the question as to if Neville's folks would have stepped in with their lives?
Would it be a natural assumption that one of his parents would have tried to get in the way - what I am saying here is this a clue maybe? More later ;)
Interesting here is the words JKR used - the curse rebounded - as in the killing curse that cannot be blocked etc - she states it rebounded - guess that clears that one up for me

Although Dumbledore does not say as much, he does not believe so: he believes Voldemort did indeed choose the boy most likely to be able to topple him, for Harry's survival has not depended wholly or even mainly upon his scar.

Clever wording there me thinks - she states Dumbledore believes that Voldemort chose the right boy - she doesnt confirm it - she states clearly Dumbledore believes ...

So where does this leave Neville, the boy who was so nearly King? Well, it does not give him either hidden powers or a mysterious destiny. He remains a 'normal' wizarding boy, albeit one with a past, in its way, as tragic as Harry's. As you saw in 'Order of the Phoenix,' however, Neville is not without his own latent strengths. It remains to be seen how he will feel if he ever finds out how close he came to being the Chosen One.

King part - she is playing games there me thinks - half blood prince - we are told Neville is a pure blood.
Last part I agree with the comments - I think this casts doubts as to exactly how he will react when he finds out - and yeah jelous, anger etc ranks up there.

Of course, none of this should be taken to mean that Neville does not have a significant part to play in the last two novels, or the fight against Voldemort. As for the prophecy itself, it remains ambiguous, not only to readers, but to my characters. Prophecies (think of Nostradamus!) are usually open to many different interpretations. That is both their strength and their weakness.

..and finally the 'get out of jail free' card is played.
I'm not sure - but I think you all take what she has said to be the nail in the coffin - but does she really come out and say exactly - catagorically that Harry is the one - was destine to be the one and overall is the one?
As she states - it is all ambiguous ... I agree ;)

As for some comments about the Longbottoms ...
Bellatrix and co decided to vist them because they were told that the Longbottom might have details on where Voldemort was.
This has been a on-going question of mine as to why they would know - moreso than even the loyal DE's.
But look back at the part where in HBP Harry wonders if Neville's parents would have stepped in - couple that with the fact that the Longbottoms might have had info on Voldemort - you have to ask yourself some questions here ... could the 'silence' the Longbottoms are under be a smoke screen in more ways than one?

[Sirius Potter Fan]

King part - she is playing games there me thinks - half blood prince - we are told Neville is a pure blood.
Last part I agree with the comments - I think this casts doubts as to exactly how he will react when he finds out - and yeah jelous, anger etc ranks up there.

I don't know about all that. . . In my mind, on Nevil's part. . . RELIEF comes to mind! By now Nevil has seen what all Harry has had to go through, the presure he is under, the confrontations with Voldemort etc. I think Him knowing this now, he would be relieved. Now if he had learned of it in his first year, before Harry "proved" himself, Nevil may well have been jealous of the celebrity and attention Harry got, but not now.

[Alz]

Well lets flip that.
Neville has also seen Harry be centre of attention - be the talk of the school - get's respect without even uttering a word ...
Then look at Neville - he was the exact opposit and only just at the end of OoTP got a level of respectability - even then JKR had him goof it up some what.
This makes me think of Peter - he was almost a 'hanger on' to the Marauders - he wasnt exactly blessed with the respect of the group.
Drawing parallels I know - but I just think there is a chance all that pent up stuff from the past will lead him down the same path as Pettigrew - a chance to gained respectability.
The only contradiction to this is I know how much Neville hates Bellatrix - but what if Voldemort can set her up - sacrifice her for the sake of some new blood?

[Sirius Potter Fan]

That's an interesting parallel Blaise. I can kind of see it, And I can see that Voldemort would really like to have Nevill in his court, to have a spy not only at Hogwarts, but in the very same bedroom with Harry! However, I just really don't see that happening. The point you made about his hatred of Belatrix, althought that is the prime focus of his hatred, I believe he hates everything she and the other DE's are. I do see him getting to be the one to undo her though. He will have his moment!

[Alz]

..well now Harry also has a reason - could this be another defining moment as Harry's hatred of her leads to him dispaching her just as Neville gears up to do the job?
Wouldnt that also be another catalyst for Neville to want to tread the path the dark side (Yah an Ep3 moment going on :D ) ...?
If Neville really is that centred on killing Bellatrix - then he would glady accept any terms if it meant that moment of satisfaction he could have to appease all the pain and suffering in his life?

[Fortescue]

King? As in: "focus of attention, target of admiration, everybody's darling"? I think that's what JKR meant ... but I can't be sure, of course. ;)

I think you're right Sir C, that's the thing that Harry hates about his circumstance is all the attention he gets and people staring at his scar. Sure, he's looked up to by many people, and looked down on most of the time by many more, but it's the fact that everyone in the Wizarding world know of Harry Potter, while only a handful of people in comparison know of Neville Longbottom.

As for some comments about the Longbottoms ...
Bellatrix and co decided to vist them because they were told that the Longbottom might have details on where Voldemort was.
This has been a on-going question of mine as to why they would know - moreso than even the loyal DE's. This could probably be answered along with Voldemort's near fatal mistake. . . his organization is full of misinformation. It was never said who told Bella the Longbottoms knew where Voldemort had gone, but it seems typical of the lack of viable information that flows between the DEs and Voldemort.

I still think that even though Neville would intitially be relieved it was Harry the prophecy referred to and not him, I believe he will rise up and become very loyal to Harry, not Wormtail kind of loyal, but Fawkes to Dumbledore kind of loyal to the point of putting himself in harms way again, (since he already did that for Harry in OotP - not very effectively, of course, but he did it just the same.) I think Neville's knowledge of the prophecy and how close he came to being a totally different person will draw him closer to Harry. It's obvious, Neville is already a loyal friend to Harry, but I think he will become obsessed with being there for Harry once he knows the truth.

[Alz]

I'm not a real doubter of what you are saying - I was just trying to look at it from another angle that see's Neville taking what he learns and doing the opposite and resenting Harry because it could all so easily have been him.
I dont mean to say he would want to have to do the thing Harry has done to keep Voldemort and co at bay - more of the glamerous side that see's him being like a practicle hero to his peers.
It is worthy of remembering that Neville has a really bad confidence problem and only now becoming more and more confident in his skills.
I just think it is there to be looked at :D

[Fortescue]

You're right, Blaise, Neville might wonder what his life might have been like had he been the Chosen One. He might even feel a touch of jealousy at the fact that he is clumsy, untalented Neville, while Harry gets all the attention, good and bad, but I think it would be a fleeting thing. I believe Neville will find his own place in the Wizarding world once he gets over some of his personal feelings of inadequacy, which I think getting a new wand of his own will help, and the realization that for the first time he faced Death Eaters, at the age of fifteen, and walked away. I'm sure that fact alone will give him more confidence in himself. While he might wonder what being Harry might be like, he will be relieved that it wasn't him that Voldemort chose, and that will make him even more willing to help Harry if need be. I think it will be interesting to see what kind of interactions Neville might now have with Draco considering all the misery he has caused Neville over the years, and Neville was there to see his father’s downfall. I’m sure the fact that Neville was there when the Aurors came and hauled Lucius off to Azkaban will be a great tool for Neville in the coming book. :D

[Alz]

I think given the fact Draco picked on Neville from the very start that there is a chance Neville will have the confidence to make Draco regret treating him like a half wit.
I mean Draco was relentless and this is always in the minds of people that have been subject to bullying - as such a more powerful and confident Neville could really cause Draco some issues and maybe turn the tables somewhat?
This kind of detracts from the matter in hand - I am sorry - I think we were looking at Neville and the Prophecy and as such i think we should return back there :o