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Deathly Hallows - Analysis A look deeper into the mysteries and clues resolved in the book.

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Old 23-07-2007, 10:57   #1
frodobaggins
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Re: Hallows or Horcruxes-A Plot Muddled? (SPOILERS!)

was jk trying to say having all of 3 of the hallows would make you immortal??

and also if the elder wand was unbeatable as it said in the book many times how did dumbledore defeat grindewald in the duel???

and all three hallows were mentioned before book 7.....we just never knew it was DD wand

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Last edited by Tonks; 23-07-2007 at 11:32..
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Old 23-07-2007, 11:48   #2
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Re: Hallows or Horcruxes-A Plot Muddled? (SPOILERS!)

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Originally Posted by frodobaggins View Post
and also if the elder wand was unbeatable as it said in the book many times how did dumbledore defeat grindewald in the duel???
This is what I could come up with on the subject:
Quote:
Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows - Ch. 35 - King's Cross

"Years passed. There were rumors about him. They said he had procured a wand of intense power."
Quote:
Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows - Ch. 35 - King's Cross

"I think he knew it, I think he knew what frightened me. I delayed meeting him until finally, it would have been too shameful to resist any longer. People were dying and he seemed unstoppable, and I had to do what I could."
"Well, you know what happened next. I won the duel. I won the wand."
Quote:
Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows - Ch. 35 - King's Cross

"Maybe a man in a million could unite the Hallows, Harry. I was fit only to possess the meanest of them, the least extraordinary. I was fit to own the Elder Wand, and not to boast of it, and not to kill with it. I was permitted to tame and to use it, because I took it, not for gain, but to save others from it."
Quote:
Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows - Ch. 21 - The Tale of the Three Brothers

"So the Elder Wand," said Harry quickly, before Hermione could retort, "you think that exists too?"
"Oh, well, in that case there is endless evidence," said Xenophilius. "The Elder Wand is the Hallow that is most easily traced, because of the way in which it passes from hand to hand."
"Which is what?" asked Harry.
"Which is that the possessor of the wand must capture it from its previous owner, if he is to be truly master of it," said Xenophilius. "Surely you have heard of the way the wand came to Egbert the Egregious, after his slaughter of Emeric the Evil? Of how Golelot died in his own cellar after his son, Hereward, took the wand from him? Of the deadful Loxias, who took the wand from Barnabas Deverill, who he had killed? The bloody trail of the Elder Wand is splattered across the pages of Wizarding history."
Quote:
Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows - Ch. 21 - The Tale of the Three Brothers

"We've already got an Invisibility Cloak," said Harry.
"And it's helped us rather a lot, in case you hadn't noticed!" said Hermione. "Whereas the wand would be bound to attract trouble --"
"Only if you shouted about it," argued Ron. "Only if you were prat enough to go dancing around, waving it over your head, and singing, 'I've got an unbeatable wand, come and have a go if you think you're hard enough.' As long as you kept your trap shut --"
Yes, but could you keep your trap shut?" said Hermione, looking skeptical. "You know, the only true thing he said to us was that there have been stories about extra-powerful wands for hundreds of years."
"There have?" asked Harry.
Hermione looked exasperated: The expression was so endearingly familiar that Harry and Ron grinned at each other.
"The Deathstick, the Wand of Destiny, they crop up under different names through the centures, usually in the possession of some Dark wizard who's boasting about them. Professor Binns mentioned some of them, but -- oh, it's all nonsense. Wands are only as powerful as the wizards who use them. Some wizards just like to boast that theirs are bigger and better than other people's."
I get the feeling that the wand is one of intense power, but that it CAN be beaten. How else would it be able to pass from master to master? The wand is only passed on when its first master is defeated... which we know happens BECAUSE the wand passes down.

I'm not sure whether Dumbledore won it because he intended to stop the death and destruction it caused, or whether he was simply more skillful and won the duel.

Thoughts? More quotes?
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Old 23-07-2007, 15:24   #3
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Re: The Elder Wand

I don't think that on their own any of the Hallows were invincible. However all three items were immeasurably strong, and anyone who united them all would be quite powerful.

As a boy, a young, inexperienced Dumbledore was taken in by the legend. As a man, however, he understands that nothing and noone is invincible or unbeatable.

In the end of the book, I believe, he talks of how the items were really probably not Death's Hallows, but just three very powerful items made by very powerful wizards.
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Old 23-07-2007, 16:15   #4
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Re: The Elder Wand

Well - I'm thinking that although the Deathly Hallows do not make you immortal, each grants you a very specific power that extends your life beyond what one may call "ordinary boundaries".

Dumbledore was 150, and was only slowed down by the curse on the ring, which gave him another year. Before that, however, he looked perfectly at ease and in good shape for 150. Perhaps the each Deathly Hallow extends life so that it seems, to those around, that its possessor is immortal, even though they only live longer.

Dumbledore, having also been in possession of the cloak, was further aided by that.

On the subject of the Elder Wand, Dumbledore said he was more skilled in magic than Grindelwald. Perhaps Grindelwald grew boastful and began to lack regard by the time Dumbledore fought him. If disarmed, Grindelwald would have lost the duel, full stop. And Dumbledore would have won the wand. The Elder Wand is not unbeatable; at least, it doesn't look like it. It is a myth, based on faulty knowledge and incorrect speculation, much like the statement that the Resurrection Stone would bring back people from the dead, when it only raises a shadow of their former selves.
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Old 23-07-2007, 17:51   #5
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Re: The Elder Wand

i think i have to agree that all the hallows were extremely powerful magical objects that got the legend because they were so strong.

that also means that the oldest in each of harry's family would have been very old due to owning the cloak which gave them long life
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Old 23-07-2007, 22:45   #6
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Re: The Elder Wand

I took all the information about the Elder Wand to mean that whoever possessed it could be defeated. Taking into account Dumbledore's explanation, and then Luna's father's, it seems that the wand can be trained by the bearer and it is a deadly magical object in the wrong hands. But I got the idea that its power was geared more toward good than evil uses. If Grindlewald had the wand and he and Dumbledore were evenly matched magically, the only difference in them was the fact that Dumbledore was trying to do what was right and that is why he won. Dumbledore said that only one in a million could control all three of the Deathly Hallows as they were intended. As throughout the story, it seems that the wand would be more powerful in the hands of someone with a good heart and good intentions. We know Harry has a big heart and Dumbledore really did, too.

The stone is lost in the forest, Harry has the cloak, and the wand, well, who knows what might happen to that. But it seems that maybe Harry is the one who could control them, but chooses not to.

The history of the wand given to the trio by Xenophilius told of the evil, betrayal, and deceptions involved in the wands history. All the previous owners were greedy, evil men who took the wand in one violent act or another so they could be more powerful. But Dumbledore owned the wand for many years. He did not kill with it and he did not kill to get it. I would assume that the he was training the wand in a different way than it had been trained by its previous owners. The fact that Harry planned to lock it back away for safekeeping was the best thing to do.

Although, it also left an opening for a continuing story should some other evil wizard come along and try to find it again. There were quite a lot of openings left at the end that could easily lead into another series. Well, that might just be wishful thinking, but I can't imagine JKR just leaving it all the way she did.
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Last edited by Fortescue; 23-07-2007 at 22:48..
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Old 23-07-2007, 23:38   #7
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Re: The Elder Wand

The fairy tale said that the first brother asked for a wand that must always win duels for it's owner, and he was not defeated in a duel, but had his throat slit as he lay drunk, and the wand was taken by his killer, but not in a duel.

So I was thinking that maybe if the first brother had all three, the wand, the cloak and the stone, THEN he could not have been killed.

But then Dumbledore said that he defeated Grindewald, in a Duel, and won the Wand.

So who knows if having all 3 items would have mattered either?

I think since Dumbledore didn't kill Grindewald, only defeated him, that it might have been better to have said, in the fairy tale, that the owner of the elder wand could not be KILLED in a duel, but it says the wand must always win the duel for the owner.
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Old 26-07-2007, 00:50   #8
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Re: The Elder Wand

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Originally Posted by Piper View Post
The fairy tale said that the first brother asked for a wand that must always win duels for it's owner, and he was not defeated in a duel, but had his throat slit as he lay drunk, and the wand was taken by his killer, but not in a duel.

So I was thinking that maybe if the first brother had all three, the wand, the cloak and the stone, THEN he could not have been killed.

But then Dumbledore said that he defeated Grindewald, in a Duel, and won the Wand.

So who knows if having all 3 items would have mattered either?

I think since Dumbledore didn't kill Grindewald, only defeated him, that it might have been better to have said, in the fairy tale, that the owner of the elder wand could not be KILLED in a duel, but it says the wand must always win the duel for the owner.

i was thinking on this as well, wondering how dumbledore could have won the duel if grindelwald had the unbeatable wand, then i realised the wand only performs for its true owner if they beat the previous one, and i realised grindelwald didnt beat gregorovitch in a duel for the wand, he mearly stole it from him.
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Old 26-07-2007, 06:42   #9
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Re: The Elder Wand

I think the real answer was given by DD. The 3 brothers Ignotus created 3 very powerful objects. The fairy tale is just that. They did not get the objects from Death hence the wand was not unbeatable, just very powerful. The first owner didn't lose it in a duel, he had his throat slit and the wand stolen. Grindelwald stole it from Gregorovitch, as he was able to take it from him, he won. DD won it from him, because he was the more skilled. The trick comes in when Draco disarms DD. In that moment DM defeats DD, and the wand becomes Draco's. LV never defeated Draco, hence the wand doesn't recognise him. But Harry DID defeat Draco, so LV's AK curse only killed the part of himself in Harry, not Harry.
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Old 08-08-2007, 12:41   #10
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Re: The Elder Wand

I think you're exactly right. Three objects all very powerful were crafted by three extraordinary wizards. The fairy tale was obviously an embellishment, not to be taken word for word literally.
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