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Discussions on Philosopher's Stone/Sorcerer's Stone "The dog must be guarding Flamel's Philosopher's Stone ..."

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Old 18-01-2006, 12:36   #31
Alz
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Re: Centaurs Prediction

I noticed OoTP threw up some interesting comments from Firenze on the matters of Stargazing and the future ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by OoTP The Centaur and the sneak
'..and observe the heavens. Here is written, for those who can see, the fortunes of our races.'

' ..and that you have mapped the stars' progress through the heavens. Centaurs have unravelled the mysteries of these movements over centuries. Our findings teach us that the future may be glimpsed in the sky above us -'

'..I, however, am here to explain the wisdom of centaurs, which is impersonal and impartial. We watch the skies for the great tides of evil or change that are sometimes marked there. It may take ten years to be sure of what we are seeing,'

'In the past decade, the indications have been that wizardkind is living through nothing more than a brief calm between two wars. Mars, bringer of battle, shines brightly above us, suggesting that the fight must break out again..'
Then shortly after this Firenze then dismisses putting too much faith in these things - so it does make you wonder!
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Old 18-01-2006, 12:39   #32
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Re: Centaurs Prediction

Yes, and if the prophecy turns out to have really meant nothing (except to sucker LV), JK can say she warned us?
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Old 19-01-2006, 11:21   #33
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Re: Centaurs Prediction

The last quote suggests they were seeing the ressurection of the Dark Lord - but that isnt to say they see the prophecy ...
They might see it as it is - the prophecy was possibly made up etc but most important it wasnt a big thing - it was only made so because of Voldemort's belief in it ...
The most important thing is they must have seen that when the Dark Lord was supposedly killed he wasnt and they were seeing him coming back to complete the second war ...
... or perhaps they classed war one was Grindelwald and the second war as Voldemort?
If this is the case - what they are seeing could be more interesting!
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'Please make it stop, I know I did wrong, oh, please make it stop and i'll never, never again..'
'Don't hurt them, don't hurt then, please, please, it's my fault, hurt me instead ...'
'Please, please, please, no ... not that, not that, I'll do anything ...'

Dumbledore - HBP Pg536

'Merely taking your life would not satisfy me..'
Dumbledore - OoTP "The only one he ever feared" Pg895
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Old 19-01-2006, 13:18   #34
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Re: Centaurs Prediction

I'm not suggesting the prophecy was made up. I think Trelawney truly "saw" something. The question is how accurate it is that long before an event. Are there no opportunities to change the future--like Scrooge?
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Old 20-01-2006, 14:55   #35
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Re: Centaurs Prediction

Well see this is where the future is different from the past - this means changing the whole lot.
The past is a record of what has happened - it is factual and etched in time - as such it can be read and changed ...
The future has still not happened and as such is still fully capable of being affected and changed by current events - there is no constant - and I think JKR expresses this throughout her books ...
The prophecy is a reflection of what was to come before any made any changes - if Sybil was capable of re-seeing that prophecy - would it play the same?
I don't think so - I think Dumbledore has already tried to change the future - we may play to the same conclusion but I think Dumbledore has tried to make changes to the outcome he saw ... thus denying the future ...
Unless - he really believes in it - then he would leave everything alone to come to the logical conclusion ... but we also know he does cast doubts on the validity of the prophecy himself - just words that were made real because someone took them literally ...

My point is - if the centaurs saw this coming - they didn't have the prophecy - so their view could be adaptable and changeable - they might see the subtle changes and the different outcome ...
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'It's all my fault, all my fault'
'Please make it stop, I know I did wrong, oh, please make it stop and i'll never, never again..'
'Don't hurt them, don't hurt then, please, please, it's my fault, hurt me instead ...'
'Please, please, please, no ... not that, not that, I'll do anything ...'

Dumbledore - HBP Pg536

'Merely taking your life would not satisfy me..'
Dumbledore - OoTP "The only one he ever feared" Pg895
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Old 21-01-2006, 20:10   #36
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Re: Centaurs Prediction

Especially if they keep reading the stars. Poor Trelawney's only made two prophecies--and doesn't remember either one! The Centaurs can keep updating.
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Old 22-01-2006, 03:17   #37
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Re: Centaurs Prediction

Exactly - I would really like to see a re-reading of the contents of that Prophecy now we have had 16 years pass and Voldemort did try to attack the chosen one.
Dumbledore's words about Voldemort already having been vanquished does make me wonder if indeed the prophecy is still accurate, or since the vanquish has taken place it will give more details on the eventual outcome.
This prophecy was made well before the attacks - as such did it take into account the freaky backfire?
We know no-one has ever survived the AK before - as such did the prophecy see it?
Still would be great to actually hear or see what the centaurs were seeing and the impact of that based on the prophecy and events as they transpired!
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'It's all my fault, all my fault'
'Please make it stop, I know I did wrong, oh, please make it stop and i'll never, never again..'
'Don't hurt them, don't hurt then, please, please, it's my fault, hurt me instead ...'
'Please, please, please, no ... not that, not that, I'll do anything ...'

Dumbledore - HBP Pg536

'Merely taking your life would not satisfy me..'
Dumbledore - OoTP "The only one he ever feared" Pg895
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Old 22-01-2006, 05:41   #38
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Re: Centaurs Prediction

Yes, and it feels like the Centaurs and all their "Mars is bright tonight" and references to Saturn and Mars and then Firenze's classes should play a role of some kind in Book 7. Otherwise, with the exception of Firenze saving Harry in the Forbidden Forest and taking over Divination (rather than allowing Dolores to do away with the subject and Trelawney to be out in the world and prey for LV), what have the Centaurs obviously done to further the plot?

And speaking of Dolores doing away with the subject, we know how McG feels about it--and Trelawney. Will Divination be back next year? Oh, now that I think of it, DD must have provided some kind of instructions if only for Firenze. Where would he go?

I think Trelawney is a target (if LV is still seeking the prophecy) even if she stays, and Hogwarts should seem more vulnerable with DD gone. And Trelawney kept muttering about going somewhere she is appreciated. She has no idea the danger she's in. If she was thinking of leaving, with McG's rather open animosity, will she leave on her own?
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Old 23-01-2006, 07:53   #39
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Re: Centaurs Prediction

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alz
Dumbledore's words about Voldemort already having been vanquished does make me wonder if indeed the prophecy is still accurate
You know, when I was reading this again, I realized the prophecy could have been referring to what happened at GH as the vanquishing as that's exactly the term DD used to described what happened. So if that part of the prophecy has already been fulfilled, what next?
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Old 23-01-2006, 11:26   #40
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Re: Centaurs Prediction

See this could be the clever thing by JKR - we are all still sure Harry has to vanquish Voldemort - yet why did JKR use the exact same words to describe what happened to the Dark Lord that night?
It could be that we are looking at the prophecy wrong and it is indeed 2 parts - the first part has been played out and in fact the second part is a different matter ...
Harry vanquished the Dark Lord - now we are left with either having to die at the hands of the other - we know this is the case as Voldemort wont stop till Harry is dead ...
Maybe this is anothet thread - but I do wonder if perhaps we could learn the more up-to-date versions of the fates for Harry and Voldemort given all that has happened in the past and the impact on future events ...
__________________
'It's all my fault, all my fault'
'Please make it stop, I know I did wrong, oh, please make it stop and i'll never, never again..'
'Don't hurt them, don't hurt then, please, please, it's my fault, hurt me instead ...'
'Please, please, please, no ... not that, not that, I'll do anything ...'

Dumbledore - HBP Pg536

'Merely taking your life would not satisfy me..'
Dumbledore - OoTP "The only one he ever feared" Pg895
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