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HBP Analysis A deeper and meaningful look at the details of HBP

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Old 09-10-2006, 14:55   #1
cagedcactus
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Thumbs up Horcrux creation for Dummies!!

I am the first Dummy to start.
Ok, this is a crucial process that we have discussed in various forums, relating somehow to all the book 7 possibilities. The horcrux creation theory can help find the horcruxes itself.
We have a lot of fellow members discussing different objects or living as horcruxes.
How many of you believe that Horcrux creation can be done only at the time of murder?
AND
How many of you believe that Horcrux creation can be done anytime after the murder?

I believe that it has to be done at the time of murder.
WHY?
Because I believe that Horcrux creation relates more to that feeling, instead of just a spell. That feeling of horrible act of murder rips soul. That soul must be sealed in a vessel right away to avoid loss of that feel. To me, it is not logical to think that, when you kill someone, and then go about your business, and then one day all of a sudden seal a horcrux with that murder you commited some time back. Because if that is the case, then Voldemort can create a horcrux even if he is almost dying at Harry's hands anytime in future when they fight.
Please post your agreements, or disagreements.
And while we are at it, why not discuss the order of spells.
How many of you believe that Horcrux creation spell comes after act of murder?
AND
How many of you believe that Horcrux creation spell comes before act of murder?

This crucial process can also answer a lot about that fateful night when baby Harry survived and Voldemort got blasted.
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Old 10-10-2006, 00:28   #2
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Re: Horcrux creation for Dummies!!

Perhaps....nice idea! I think though that if the Horcrux has to be made at the time of the murder, it is more to protect and preserve the now torn fragment of soul from decaying and dying! Also, I don't know (obviously!!) whether two independant pieces of soul could co-exist within one body, without causing some type of harm; maybe mentally, to the host, so it may well be necessary to create the Horcrux as soon as is possible, as well as giving the orphaned soul a safe refuge!
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Old 10-10-2006, 02:57   #3
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Re: Horcrux creation for Dummies!!

I agree that it is logical that the murder is contemporaneous with the process of making the Horcrux.
Dumbledore says that he thinks that Voldemort used significant murders for the creation of his horcruxes.
One thing that does confuse me is the statement by Slughorn the "Killing rips the soul apart." this seems to suggest that all murders rip the soul apart. In this case the process of creating a horcrux would simply be encasing something that would otherwise be lost. He also says "But, of course, existence in such a form ... few would want it, Tom, very few. Death would be preferable."
How would this relate to other wizards who have murdered, wormtail or aurors for example.
This leads me to believe that the creation of a horcrux involves not only a vessel and a spell but also a murder committed specifically for the purpose of creating the horcrux and contemporaneously with the spell.
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Old 10-10-2006, 03:25   #4
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Re: Horcrux creation for Dummies!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Glumbumble View Post
I agree that it is logical that the murder is contemporaneous with the process of making the Horcrux.
Dumbledore says that he thinks that Voldemort used significant murders for the creation of his horcruxes.
One thing that does confuse me is the statement by Slughorn the "Killing rips the soul apart." this seems to suggest that all murders rip the soul apart. In this case the process of creating a horcrux would simply be encasing something that would otherwise be lost. He also says "But, of course, existence in such a form ... few would want it, Tom, very few. Death would be preferable."
How would this relate to other wizards who have murdered, wormtail or aurors for example.
This leads me to believe that the creation of a horcrux involves not only a vessel and a spell but also a murder committed specifically for the purpose of creating the horcrux and contemporaneously with the spell.
Very good points.
I read this somewhere on JKR. She explained in depth of what bad witchcraft practice would do to the wizards and witches.
Cruciatus curse doesnt work if the intention to cause pain is righteous. Once must cast the spell to enjoy and mean it. The reason Voldemort is so good with torchure curses and death curses, is because his feelings are almost default. It is like he has no heart left. His desires, and rotten mind has taken over the body. His time in that orphanage didnt help either. Because he didnt get the attention he needed in childhood. And by the time Dumbledore came with the letter, it was probably too late.
So when he kills, he almost enjoys that kill. He kills so he can encase his ripped soul. Now that same act can leave any normal witch, wizard, or a muggle completely devastated. But it doesnt work the same way with him. So once horcrux is created, his mind set doesnt change, but his soul becomes weaker and weaker by day. Thus changing the whole outlook and personality.
If you agree with the points above, you probably would also agree that such a crucial process cant be waited on. It should be done at the time of the murder.
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"Let me tell you the secret that had led me to my goal. My strength lies, solely in my tenacity."
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"Courage and perseverance have a magical talisman, before which all difficulties disappear and obstacles vanish into air."
-Godric Gryffindor the founder of house Gryffindor

"We have a hunger of the mind which asks for knowledge all around us. And the more we gain, the more is our desire."
-Rowena Ravenclaw the founder of house Ravenclaw
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Old 10-10-2006, 09:15   #5
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Re: Horcrux creation for Dummies!!

I believe that Voldemorts' killing is for two reasons: To remove obvious threats, and punish those who oppose him, and of course, since he learned of the concept of Horcruxes, as a means to ensure his own immortality. Remember, he had Cedric murdered for no other reason than that he was there, but not needed! frank Bryce wwas killed because he'd spied upon Voldemort. two more deaths of little 'significance' to Voldemort, but they would of course provide more fragments of his soul in which to create new Horcruxes should he so choose! I think that when reference was made to Voldemort favouring 'important' killings for the purpose, it was just his arrogance driving him.
As a side to this; Snape, if he knows of Horcruxes and the required magic (and I'm sure he would!) is now in a position to create one for himself to help him against either Voldemort or harry!
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Old 10-10-2006, 09:44   #6
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Re: Horcrux creation for Dummies!!

First my answers . . .

Yes I believe the horcrux must be made and sealed at the time of the murder.

I lean to the spell being cast after the murder, but, within a limited time.

We have argued on another thread whether the soul is split from "any" killing or only those done with murderous intent, in other words the soul may not split when killing is done in self-defense, as the Aurors would have done. It was also argued whether the severed soul piece could rejoin if left in the person and not made into a horcrux. The ideal explanation, that a soul indeed splits in any killing, but, in the case of killing in self-defense can recombine, gives substance to the possibility of redemption. I actualy believe that a pure soul forced to kill would suffer more initialy than a wicked soul, but, that it can heal in time.
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Old 10-10-2006, 10:10   #7
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Re: Horcrux creation for Dummies!!

I think that since its been explained that the ripping of the soul occurs at the time of the murder, it only makes sense to believe that the horcrux must be created contemporaneous with, but just after the murder.
However, as you and I have discussed before, the Peverell ring had not yet been obtained at the time that Voldemort killed his father or grandparents. In fact, those murders occured in between his fifth and sixth year at Hogwarts (his sixteenth year). Therefore, either a horcrux was not made to seal the murder of Tom Riddle Sr. or horcruxes can be made at any time after the murder. The only other possession that Voldemort had at the time of the Riddles' murders was the diary. However, because Voldemort was so nonchalant about the diary and its preservation, I doubt that it was sealed with a "significant" death.
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Old 10-10-2006, 11:37   #8
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Re: Horcrux creation for Dummies!!

peanutgal, you started on the right note. Very good point that we discussed in another thread. But let us see where you finished.
I think that the diary definitely sealed his first horcrux. That horcrux is Tom Riddle SR. Then he picked up the ring from Marvolo as he returned that wand. He had the ring on his finger as he asked Slughorn about horcruxes. He wanted to find out if he can create more horcruxes. Every single horcrux he has created intentionally, have been significant deaths. So I think the diary with Riddle Sr. would fit well, agree?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sirius Potter Fan View Post

We have argued on another thread whether the soul is split from "any" killing or only those done with murderous intent, in other words the soul may not split when killing is done in self-defense, as the Aurors would have done. It was also argued whether the severed soul piece could rejoin if left in the person and not made into a horcrux. The ideal explanation, that a soul indeed splits in any killing, but, in the case of killing in self-defense can recombine, gives substance to the possibility of redemption. I actualy believe that a pure soul forced to kill would suffer more initialy than a wicked soul, but, that it can heal in time.
Yes I agree word to word. A murder without horcrux creation, whether defense or offense, would rip the soul badly. But then the soul will heal faster too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by yarvelling View Post
Remember, he had Cedric murdered for no other reason than that he was there, but not needed! frank Bryce wwas killed because he'd spied upon Voldemort. two more deaths of little 'significance' to Voldemort, but they would of course provide more fragments of his soul in which to create new Horcruxes should he so choose! I think that when reference was made to Voldemort favouring 'important' killings for the purpose, it was just his arrogance driving him.
Correct you are.
Yes he does kill people like flies. And yes his arrogance drives him. But he choses his killings when he intends and plans to. Significant deaths, significant vessels, significant locations. And that my friend, is the reason why I think the way I posted in begining. Thinking other way around will prove that he probably has few souls ripped in his pocket, which he can use anytime. And that would be against logic.
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"Let me tell you the secret that had led me to my goal. My strength lies, solely in my tenacity."
-Salazar Slytherin the founder of house Slytherin

"Courage and perseverance have a magical talisman, before which all difficulties disappear and obstacles vanish into air."
-Godric Gryffindor the founder of house Gryffindor

"We have a hunger of the mind which asks for knowledge all around us. And the more we gain, the more is our desire."
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Old 10-10-2006, 14:15   #9
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Re: Horcrux creation for Dummies!!

If he created the diary horcrux with the death of Tom Riddle Sr., why was he so careless with it?

As far as significant deaths, I think you hit the nail on the head when you discussed the murders of the Bones' and Prewetts. I think that Voldemort is sealing the horcruxes with the deaths of the remaining pureblood families. It makes me wonder then whether R.A.B's death sealed a horcrux. Remember that Sirius specifically says that he does not believe that Regulus was important enough for Voldemort to have murdered himself.

When you think about it, other than the Potters, who only became "famous" after Harry survived, other than Riddle, Sr. are there any deaths you would consider significant?
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Old 10-10-2006, 15:39   #10
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Re: Horcrux creation for Dummies!!

I tend to agree with the idea of soul fragments reuniting with the remaining soul when not used for the creation of a horcrux. It must be the case though, that creating a horcrux does permanently damage the soul. Voldemort appears reluctant to create new horcruxes despite his somewhat casual approach to murder. Dumbledore tells of Voldemortís anger at Lucius Malfoy when he learns of the destruction of the Diary. It could be that Voldemort was angry at the loss of the Diary itself or the loss of the Horcrux. I tend to think that it was the loss of the Horcrux that angered him.
I have expressed the view, on another thread, that I do not think that Voldemort is able to create any further Horcruxes.
As a newcomer to this site I am still reading through the many interesting and informative threads. I am not sure whether there has been a similar thread to this in relation to the way in which Horcruxes are used, whether they need to be accessed and used when reunited with a body.
Returning to the issue of creating Horcrux creation it would seem that if the murders of the James, Lilly and Harry were to be used to create a further Horcrux then he would have had already decided on a vessel. This must either have been taken to Godricís Hollow by Voldemort or it must have been at the Potter house.
If it is the case, as has been suggested, that the Horcrux spell is performed after the murder has been committed then it should be safe to assume that Voldemort was unable to perform it after his Avada Kedavra curse had rebounded upon him.

Peanutgal, I am not sure that Voldemort was careless with the Diary. He entrusted it to the care of Lucius who, not knowing what it was, and believing that Voldemort had been killed, disposed of it.
I agree that it is likely that either the Diary or the Ring became a horcrux through the murder of Tom Riddle snr. and that he had already made a horcrux by the time that he spoke to Slughorn about the creation of multiple horcruxes
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