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Discussions on Goblet of Fire "I don't know who put my name in the Goblet of Fire ..."

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Old 15-11-2005, 13:39   #1
Alz
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Cool The Helping hand and debt repaid?

Ok - was listening to the GoF chapter when Harry battles Voldemort, then gets back to Hogwarts - and I have some thoughts ...

We have debated a lot about who changed the portkey etc ...

Each thing that comes out of the wand is connected to Wormtail - those he betrayed, those he lead to death, those he killed and also his hand ...
Then remember who goes and gets Harry's wand before Harry battles Voldemort?
Also remember where the portkey is in conjuction to the wand ...
Each of those spirits that came out was telling Harry what to do - and also what he had to do when the wands broke apart.

I submit for consideration it was Wormtail that did it - he changed the porkey - he also did something to Harry's wand that allowed him to battle Voldemort - outside of the effects of the brother wands effect on each other.
Those spirits knew what to do - they were also people that would have helped Harry - motivate Harry - drive Harry on - Wormtail just did something in conjuction with the PI spell to make sure that Harry was motivated, driven on by people he loved and cared for etc.
Could we also have seen Pettigrew repay his debt that night by putting in place all the steps Harry needed to get away from Voldemort?
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Old 09-12-2005, 03:06   #2
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Re: The Helping hand and debt repaid?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alz
Each thing that comes out of the wand is connected to Wormtail - those he betrayed, those he lead to death, those he killed and also his hand ...
Then remember who goes and gets Harry's wand before Harry battles Voldemort?
Also remember where the portkey is in conjuction to the wand ...
Each of those spirits that came out was telling Harry what to do - and also what he had to do when the wands broke apart.
Actually, I believe that Voldemort killed the old man, Frank, in his parents old house. He was the one who pointed the wand and said the spell, it wasn't wormtail. Even though he was a creepy little blob, he did have hands and could hold a wand.
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Old 09-12-2005, 04:38   #3
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Re: The Helping hand and debt repaid?

Alz, that's pretty cool, I never really thought about Peter actually helping Harry that night. Fortescue has a point there though-he didn't seem to play a part in killing Frank-and didn't Voldemort say he killed Bertha himself? I guess I'm hoping that Peter still has his life-debt to Harry yet to pay. I see your point though-he sure didn't behave like he owed Harry a life debt in the graveyard did he? That sends chills down my spine He really is a slimy little rat!
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Old 11-12-2005, 00:46   #4
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Re: The Helping hand and debt repaid?

Actually if you read my post again - Frank is still legit - I said as follows ... 'Each thing that comes out of the wand is connected to Wormtail - those he betrayed, those he lead to death, those he killed and also his hand ...' - notice lead to death?
My point is that he had a helping hand in it all - all those people that died - be it directly or indirectly ... so my point stands ...
I think the 'hand' is the big clue as to who made the changes ... he offered a helping hand - lost a hand - blah blah ...
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'Please make it stop, I know I did wrong, oh, please make it stop and i'll never, never again..'
'Don't hurt them, don't hurt then, please, please, it's my fault, hurt me instead ...'
'Please, please, please, no ... not that, not that, I'll do anything ...'

Dumbledore - HBP Pg536

'Merely taking your life would not satisfy me..'
Dumbledore - OoTP "The only one he ever feared" Pg895
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Old 12-12-2005, 06:20   #5
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Re: The Helping hand and debt repaid?

I would have to say you're right Alz-Peter did have a helping hand in all of those deaths! Truthfully, I didn't quite grasp what you were getting at here. I'm guessing the portkey debate had to do with who made it a return ticket? I figured Peter had to be the one who did it-although on Voldemort's orders. I always thought that killing Harry wasn't the end of his plan, his ultimate goal was Hogwarts and Aberforth. If that's not true, then your theory has some weight to it-I certainly think we are going to be caught off guard by the rat. Everyone underestimates him (probably because he's loathsome!) but he was able to become an animagus and he did fool everyone for a long time(he's still fooling most). Didn't Dumbledore say that priori incantantum regurgitates recent spells from the wand? I can't remember what he said about the victims being able to communicate-I'll have to read that again. What did that hand that came out do? I forget If Peter helped Harry that night, we'll have to consider possibilities! I mean Peter does seem to choose the one with the most power.
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Old 12-12-2005, 11:59   #6
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Re: The Helping hand and debt repaid?

Yeah this was kind of a direct address on the who changed the port key debate ...
I think after much debate over the years and then re-reading GoF prior to the film I was actually satisfied that indeed the rat did it ...
I just think in the symbolism of the act as well as the circumstance - the helping hand of Wormtail helped both the master and the enemy ... Wormtail I think still knows all he did and while I am not convinced he is ready for for confession and apology - I think he is capable of sabotage from a powerful position.
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'Please make it stop, I know I did wrong, oh, please make it stop and i'll never, never again..'
'Don't hurt them, don't hurt then, please, please, it's my fault, hurt me instead ...'
'Please, please, please, no ... not that, not that, I'll do anything ...'

Dumbledore - HBP Pg536

'Merely taking your life would not satisfy me..'
Dumbledore - OoTP "The only one he ever feared" Pg895
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Old 12-12-2005, 21:08   #7
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Re: The Helping hand and debt repaid?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alz
I was actually satisfied that indeed the rat did it
He see's the light!
Haven't I been saying that all along? It just couldn't have been anyone else, unless it is possible to place two destinations on one portkey at the same time. the Rat had the oportunity, and a motive. I think I also have a post somewhere on this site about Peter's place in Gryfindor, and that the courage the hat saw in him will come out in an effort to help Harry in the end. Most of what we have seen of dear old Wormtail, is a very timid and cowardly personality, always hiding in the shadow of those he thinks can take care of him. But the hat saw courage in there somwhere or it wouldn't have placed him in Gryfindor.
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Old 13-12-2005, 00:59   #8
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Re: The Helping hand and debt repaid?

Umm - i think you missed my point ...
We debated all parts of this scenario in another thread and I also mentioned Peter - but it was always just discussion ...
I actually think I might have found something a little more solid - hence why I put it out here on it's own ...
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'It's all my fault, all my fault'
'Please make it stop, I know I did wrong, oh, please make it stop and i'll never, never again..'
'Don't hurt them, don't hurt then, please, please, it's my fault, hurt me instead ...'
'Please, please, please, no ... not that, not that, I'll do anything ...'

Dumbledore - HBP Pg536

'Merely taking your life would not satisfy me..'
Dumbledore - OoTP "The only one he ever feared" Pg895
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Old 13-12-2005, 01:48   #9
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Re: The Helping hand and debt repaid?

Well what did you find? You're leaving us hanging here I'm looking back through this scene and I'm not seeing it-Peter does give him his wand "without looking at him"-wouldn't he give some sign to Harry if he was actually helping him? SiriusPotterFan- It's funny that you brought up the hat I was thinking about that last night-Why would the Sorting Hat put Peter in Gryffindor? Since I was already thinking the Sorting Hat may be one of the horcuxes-now I have to wonder-can the Sorting Hat see the future?It seems Peter has to end up doing something truly heroic(Gryffindor) so you could really be onto something here Alz! I for one am going to go over this w/a magnifying glass.
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Old 13-12-2005, 12:29   #10
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Re: The Helping hand and debt repaid?

Well - I suppose one could say Peter had a chance to do something with Harry's wand that may have caused the priori incantem ... I think that was one observation.
I think overall I was looking at the scene - him loosing a hand, Voldemort giving him a hand - all the shadows coming out of the wand all seem to have been killed by association or directly by Wormtail ... I was just trying to add some substance to the speculation - this was one of my personal fav discussions over the years!
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'It's all my fault, all my fault'
'Please make it stop, I know I did wrong, oh, please make it stop and i'll never, never again..'
'Don't hurt them, don't hurt then, please, please, it's my fault, hurt me instead ...'
'Please, please, please, no ... not that, not that, I'll do anything ...'

Dumbledore - HBP Pg536

'Merely taking your life would not satisfy me..'
Dumbledore - OoTP "The only one he ever feared" Pg895
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