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Discussions on Chamber of Secrets "In my fifth year, The Chamber of Secrets was opened ..."

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Old 18-01-2006, 23:18   #11
Alz
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Re: Would Lucius have died like Voldemort?

See like what I was saying above there - I think the charm Dumbledore placed and Petunia sealed was one that would keep Harry safe while in the muggle world ... Dumbledore always expected that at Hogwarts Harry would be safe because he is magically protected like all the other students and of course the school itself.
IMHO - I think Lucius could have killed Harry that day because the charm Dumbledore sealed only kept Harry safe outside of Hogwarts - as long as he returned 'home' once a year.
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Old 19-01-2006, 02:03   #12
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Re: Would Lucius have died like Voldemort?

There is something curious about this blood protection and I get the feeling this is something else that was carefully worded by J.K.R. Here's what Voldemort says in GoF-
pg. 657-For he has been better protected then I think even he knows, protected in ways devised by Dumbledore long ago, when it fell to him to arrange the boy's future. Dumbledore invoked an ancient magic, to ensure the boy's protection as long as he is in his relations care. Not even I can touch him there....
Dumbledore says-
HBP pg. 54- "As you will no doubt be aware, Harry comes of age in a year's time..
pg. 55-Harry, whom Lord Voldemort has already attempted to kill on a number of occasions, is in even greater danger now than the day when I left him upon your doorstep.......The magic I evoked fifteen years ago means that Harry has powerful protection while he can still call this house "home"..The magic will cease to operate the moment Harry turns seventeen..
OOTP pg. 836-I am speaking of course, of the fact that your mother died to save you. She gave you a lingering protection he never expected, a protection that flows in your veins to this day...I delivered you to her sister...she sealed the charm I placed upon you. Your mother's sacrifice made the bond of blood the strongest shield I could give you."
I have some questions here-Why would Lily's blood only protect Harry until he's seventeen? Why would Dumbledore use a charm that only protects Harry until he's seventeen? How does Dumbledore know what Lily did?
I would think that Lily's blood protection doesn't have a time limit on it-and Dumbledore's charm(whatever it was) is a seperate issue, and must have involved something we don't know about-maybe fidelius charm? It could have been designed to include deatheaters. I do have the feeling that it wouldn't be very simple to AK Harry-no matter who did it or where, because Voldemort marked him as his equal and made him a horcrux. Anyway this ties in to the missing pieces of what happened that night.
On a side note-I think it's quite telling when Dumbledore says-
OOTP pg. 835-Did I believe the Voldemort was gone forever? No. I knew not whether it would be ten, twenty, or fifty years before he returned, but I was sure that he would do so, and I was sure too, knowing him as I have done,that he would not rest until he killed you.
This tells me that Dumbledore Knew about a horcrux/the horcruxes when he took Harry to #4 Privet Drive and may tie in w/another thread
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Old 19-01-2006, 09:03   #13
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Re: Would Lucius have died like Voldemort?

Nice spot HelenB, it appears that Harry's protection at Privat Drive is related to Lily's sacrifice but I still get the impression that the protection was only afforded him whilst he was living with his aunt and possibly even only when he was in their home, after all, dementors were able to attack him whist he was out walking. I still say that the protection was Voldermort specific when out and about or at Hogwarts but against all magical attack when in his aunt's home.

Mind you, if the DEs had any brain, they'd have gone there, incapacitated his aunt, uncle and cousin using magic (we know magic works in the Dursley's house) and then killed Harry in a non-magical way........but then we wouldn't have a story would we
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Old 19-01-2006, 09:29   #14
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Re: Would Lucius have died like Voldemort?

Well, I'm not sure it's limited to while he's at the Dursleys. Each summer Harry's spent more and more time away from there--in HBP he was only there for two weeks. Why would DD think it so important to talk to the Dursleys (as DD's about to take Harry away) to get them to agree to allow Harry to return the following summer--so his protection will continue for that year--if the protection is only while he's at their home?
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Old 19-01-2006, 11:14   #15
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Re: Would Lucius have died like Voldemort?

Ok, my brain is now hurting. I THINK I just found a hole in JKR's plot...

When DD "died", Harry was released from the invisble grasp that held him in place.. Ok, that charm/spell/jinx/whatever was broken, which leads one to conclude that upon a wizard's death, their charms/spells/jinxes/whatevers and broken.. Why did Snape and the gang have to run to the gate, to exit Hogwarts, before they could aparate (sp?) ? Wouldn't DD's protections have all vanished instantly, along with how he was holding Harry?

Furthermore... His protection of the Dursley homestead should also be broken, which means that Dursleys and Harry if he's still residing there, will be fair game for the DEs... Oh how I hope we see Dudley AK'd, Vernon sectumsempra'd and Petuia just tortured till she cries =)
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Old 19-01-2006, 12:41   #16
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Re: Would Lucius have died like Voldemort?

Umm - provocative thinking ...

OK- so first apparition at Hogwarts - it's in Hogwarts a History and I don't think it is a protection Dumbledore added and sustained - I think Hogwarts has it's own built in security

... another flaw was when the Weasley's flew out of Hogwarts on brooms in OoTP, Dumbledore had to mutter stuff to undo the protections in HBP - Weasley twins flew out - wanna challenge that on the basis 'on way out you don't need to remove them' - well Snape used spells to unlock the gates for Harry when he arrived late at the start of HBP

Perhaps JKR's latest poll might help this one - winning (sadly) is 'what happens to a secret when the secret keeper dies ...' - this could shed some light on how many magical protections are now under threat with Dumbledore's death ... or if he isn't dead might explain why people aren't frantic with fear (Number 12 jumps to mind!)
Anyways - sorry multiple digressions on my behalf!

To the latter - Lily invoked the magic that protected Harry from Voldemort - Dumbledore sealed a charm with Petunia that would keep Harry safe as long as he returned to the place he called home - although it seems to suggest just house, dementors and Harry under watch by Figg and Dung suggest outside of house he is fair game ...
A wizard is considered an adult when they reach 17 - that is the significance of why Harry looses the charm after he turns 17 - he should he able to stand on his own 2 feet - and most important - can do magic outside of Hogwarts!
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'Please make it stop, I know I did wrong, oh, please make it stop and i'll never, never again..'
'Don't hurt them, don't hurt then, please, please, it's my fault, hurt me instead ...'
'Please, please, please, no ... not that, not that, I'll do anything ...'

Dumbledore - HBP Pg536

'Merely taking your life would not satisfy me..'
Dumbledore - OoTP "The only one he ever feared" Pg895
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Old 19-01-2006, 13:08   #17
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Re: Would Lucius have died like Voldemort?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vold. E. Mort
His protection of the Dursley homestead should also be broken, which means that Dursleys and Harry if he's still residing there, will be fair game for the DEs... Oh how I hope we see Dudley AK'd, Vernon sectumsempra'd and Petuia just tortured till she cries =)
Ow! Such viciousness! Though it would be rather satisfying, I must admit. A bit like DD's "Merely taking your life would not satisfy me" statement to LV in OotP. I have a feeling that something could happen when Harry turns 17. I heard somewhere the JK mentioned a character not able to do magic will perform some in a very stressful situation. Mrs. Figg, perhaps, since JK has also said Petunia is not a squib. Although it would make me laugh if it turned out Dudley could do some magic--be a squib.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alz
... another flaw was when the Weasley's flew out of Hogwarts on brooms in OoTP, Dumbledore had to mutter stuff to undo the protections in HBP - Weasley twins flew out - wanna challenge that on the basis 'on way out you don't need to remove them' - well Snape used spells to unlock the gates for Harry when he arrived late at the start of HBP
But didn't DD up the protections once LV came out of the closet? That could account for the twins being able to fly out perhaps.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alz
To the latter - Lily invoked the magic that protected Harry from Voldemort - Dumbledore sealed a charm with Petunia that would keep Harry safe as long as he returned to the place he called home - although it seems to suggest just house, dementors and Harry under watch by Figg and Dung suggest outside of house he is fair game ...
Perhaps, but I still read them as connected, since DD tied the one to the other with his refences to blood. I know what you're saying about the dementors. Perhaps DD was looking at that short space of time between Harry's leaving school at the end of HBP and turning 17. But what happens if he leaves right away as he said he would. How would DD's charm protect Harry at the Weasley home? How come the DEs didn't descend on their home after Harry left #4 Privet Drive before HBP?
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Old 20-01-2006, 04:07   #18
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Re: Would Lucius have died like Voldemort?

J.K.R. definately said that Petunia has never and will never use magic-but she also said there's more to Petunia than meets the eye..I think she nixed Dudders doing magic too(I'll have to check). Harry must be protected by his mother's sacrifice outside of Privet Drive-being something seperate from Dumbledore's charm, at least this is the only sense I can make of it J.K.R. also says on her website that Dumbledore corresponded w/Petunia before the letter Dumbledore leaves w/Harry on her doorstep. It makes sense that Voldemort would have been looking for the Potters there-I'm sure he would have known about Lily's muggle relatives. Was #4 Privet Drive also put under the fidelius charm at the same time as Godric's Hollow?
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Old 20-01-2006, 09:56   #19
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Re: Would Lucius have died like Voldemort?

Something to consider too is the need to protect Harry from more than death. Don't forget that the first time LV meets Harry after GH LV invites Harry to join him. Imagine Harry turning to the dark side (as totally unlikely as that would be), possessed or merely imperiused and what damage LV could do through him. Could that be why LV wants him and not just dead?
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Old 21-01-2006, 10:17   #20
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Re: Would Lucius have died like Voldemort?

Some helpful data in this I think ....

Quote:
Originally Posted by OoTP The Lost Prophecy
'You would be protected by an ancient magic of which he knows, which he despises, and which he has always, therefore, underestimated - to his cost. I am speaking, of course, of the fact that your mother died to save you. She gave you a lingering protection he never expected, a protection that flows in your veins to this day. I put my trust, therefore, in your mother's blood. I delivered you to her sister, her only remaining relative.'
Quote:
Originally Posted by OoTP The Lost Prophecy
'But she took you,' Dumbledore cut across him 'she may have taken you grudginly, furiously, unwillingly, bitterly, yet still she took you, and in doing so, she sealed the charm I placed upon you.'
Quote:
Originally Posted by OoTP The Lost Prophecy
'While you can still call home the place where your mother's blood dwells, there you cannot be touched or harmed by Voldemort'
Quote:
Originally Posted by OoTP The Lost Prophecy
'You need to return there only once a year, but as long as you can still call it home, whilst you are there he cannot hurt you'
__________________
'It's all my fault, all my fault'
'Please make it stop, I know I did wrong, oh, please make it stop and i'll never, never again..'
'Don't hurt them, don't hurt then, please, please, it's my fault, hurt me instead ...'
'Please, please, please, no ... not that, not that, I'll do anything ...'

Dumbledore - HBP Pg536

'Merely taking your life would not satisfy me..'
Dumbledore - OoTP "The only one he ever feared" Pg895
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