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Storyline conspiracy theory "It's obvious what this means, there'll be loads of fog tonight"

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Old 06-05-2006, 07:20   #1
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Lightbulb Aparating in time

I haven't gotten into a lot of the time theories that have been presented in the forums previously, but liking my Anne McCaffrey Dragon books nearly as much as my Harry Potter books, I couldn't help but come up with this connection.

For those unfamiliar with the Anne McCaffrey books, they contain people who ride dragons that are capable of moving from one place to another by teleportation, very much like apparating. As a matter of fact, the instructions and dangers presented are almost identical, materializing in side an object, only partially materializing etc.. The dragon riders are told to hold a clear picture in their mind of where they want to go, then to instruct their dragons to go there. Quite similar to the "destination, determination, and deliberation" the young wizards and witches are taught (just without all the alliteration)

Now with the similarities established, the possibilities: Quite on accident a dragon rider made the picture in her mind of where she wanted to go, but she thought of the place as she had known it as a child. She then instructed her dragon to go to that place. When she arrived, she actually saw herself as a child, and realized what she had done. After returning to present time, she mentioned what had happened to another dragon rider, and he experimented and found out that indeed all dragons were capable of traveling through time as well as space.


Now we have been told that time and space are important in magic. So, does it not stand to reason that it would be possible for a witch or wizard also to apparate through time as well as space. In the McCaffrey books, it was found out that the ability to move between times had been known in the dragons for two thousand years, but had been “forgotten” because the information was kept to just the leaders; new dragon riders were instructed so completely in picturing the places they were going to, not from their own memories, but they were taken first to each place by an older dragon rider so their mental picture of the place would be current. Eventually dragon riders with knowledge of the secret died suddenly without disclosing the information, and it was forgotten.

Could Dumbledore know of this secret of apparition? Might Harry stumble upon it? How could it be used? Would it help?
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Old 07-05-2006, 13:07   #2
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Re: Aparating in time

Umm and arggghh - I really do love time travel references and the whole premise and maybe application to the Potter storylines - but using apparition as a medium?
I think the idea is sound in your thoughts on it but I just don't think it could or even should be used in that manner in the Potter books ...
We were shown that Time Turners are required and further told pretty much all future TT attempts were out the window now that all the Ministries stock of TT's were destroyed in the DoM ...
But there was some real, strong, relevant time moments in that DoM and I still cant help but feel time is going to come back into the story - but I am not convinced apparition offers the medium because if it could be done, I think we would have seen more uses of it or at least a few examples of people that were proficient in it ...
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Old 07-05-2006, 15:15   #3
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Re: Aparating in time

well, you see, that is kinda the trick there, as in the McCaffrey books, the ability was actually forgotten for a thousand years (or more) because it was kept so secret. Those who knew the secret died without telling anyone, and the secret died and the knowledge was lost for good untill someone stumbled on in by accident.

What if the reason the Ministry has the time turners to make the common witch/wizard believe that something physical is required to travel in time. Using a time turner and being able to make one turn for each hour you want to go back would be safer than the dangers of the way the dragons do it. If they fail to properly visualize their destination, the may be forever trapped "between" their origination and their destination. But what if Harry were to stumble onto it . . . seeing a photo of Godric's hollow, and using it to get there, but not knowing the photo is several years old, he could arive there in time to witness his parents death, or who knows what, just speculation.
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Old 08-05-2006, 10:35   #4
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Re: Aparating in time

I often liked the idea that Harry would go back in time, maybe via pensive, and witness exactly what happened that fateful night at Godric's Hollow - I just think it would be more poignant to actually live it rather than hear about it ...
I'm not one to shoot down a good wild spec - I just think that the contra to this being acceptable would cause even more 'well if that was the case ...' moments ...
Still, I like the premise and thinking, I just don't feel comfortable if apparition was used for time travel - although it does have the hallmarks - like the wormhole theories of Stephen Hawkins
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Old 11-11-2006, 13:36   #5
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Re: Aparating in time

ooooo....this is a can of worms this is... cause what if harry realizes this and not only goes back to the night his parents died, but acttually goes back to try and stop DD death? oooo, he could mess up the timeline horribley, and may end up dieing himslef. that would stink.
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Old 23-03-2007, 04:21   #6
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Re: Aparating in time

Having just read the first of the Dragonriders of Pern series, at the suggestion of SPF, I have to agree about the similarities between teleportation and apparition.

If this is to develop as a theme in the Potter series there could be an important similarity in the two stories. In Dragonflight Lessa envisages her home when she was a child and teleports to that place and time. Harry has said that intends to go to Godric's Hollow. But where is Godric's Hollow? If he obtains a photograph of his parents house it must have been taken before his parents deaths and the destruction of the house. If that is what he focuses upon he may well go back in time.

Following the Dragonflight scenario it would also be possible for Harry to give his parents an image of the future and allow them to apparate into the future and fight Voldemort. It may explain the significance of Lily's eyes.

In Priori incantatum Lily and James were able to give advice to Harry perhaps that was just a preparation for the full blooded return of Lily and James.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hermione. PoA
Professor McGonagall told me what awful things have happened when wizards have meddled with time.... Loads of them ended up killing their past or future selves by mistake!
Notice the underlined reference to the future. I had not attached significance to this before but now its seems that travel into the future may be possible.

Sorry CC if your blood pressure has just hit the roof!!!
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Old 23-03-2007, 08:11   #7
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Re: Aparating in time

Bravo GB!!! You've said it so much better than I could have. And, actualy I had never realy thought about Harry bringing his living parents forward into his time . . . that could cause some interesting circumstances. As you saw in Dragonflight, the "old timers" were able to go forward in time with the red star refference to guide them a step at a time, and with Lessa to give them the final image. So Lily and James could indeed come forward to help with Harry's help, however, unless he can show them a photo or otherwise help them to see the right place . . . or . . . acutally safer, would be sidealong aparation . . . Of course however, they would have to go back, most likely with their memories modified, as it is very important that they continue as things were, or Harry would never be who he is . . . (aren't time paradoxes fun!)

GB, could you get the quote where F'lar first instructs Lessa on "going between" so we can show them the true similarities in how Aparition is taught? sorry, I only have audio books . That may help some to understand better.
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Old 23-03-2007, 09:36   #8
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Re: Aparating in time

Is this what you were thinking of SPF?

Quote:
Originally Posted by F'lar. Dragonflight by Anne McCaffrey
However," he said, and his voice sounded unnatural to himself, "we take the young riders constantly to and from the main reference points all across Pern, to all the Holds so that they have eyewitness impressions on which to rely. As a rider becomes adept in picking out landmarks, he gets additional references from other riders. Therefore, to go between, there is actually only one requirement, a clear picture of where you want to go. And a dragon!" He grinned at her. "Also, you should always plan to arrive above your reference point in clear air."
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lessa. Dragonflight by Anne McCaffrey
"I gave her the picture of Ruatha so we could go between there." She did not look at him, but her profile was outlined against the dark fur of the rug. "The Ruatha I knew so well, I accidentally sent myself backward in time to the day Fax invaded."

Her shock was now comprehensible to him.

"And ..." he prompted her, his voice carefully neutral.

"And I saw myself, " Her voice broke off. With an effort she continued. "I had visualized for Ramoth the designs of the firepits and the angle of the Hold if one looked down from the pits into the Inner Court. That was where we emerged."
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Old 23-03-2007, 10:36   #9
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Re: Aparating in time

YES! Thanks GB!

Now let's review this . . .
Quote:
Originally Posted by Twycross, HBP
'Step one: fix your mind firmly upon the desired destin-ation,' . . .

"Step two,' said Twycross, 'focus your determination to occupy the visualised space! . . .

'Step three,' called Twycross, 'and only when 1 give the command ... turn on the spot, feeling your way into nothingness, moving with deliberation!"
So . . . there are striking similarities. The dragon riders had to visualize their destination (Destination). . . give it to their dragon telepathicaly (focus your determination) . . . then instruct the dragon to take them there (deliberation)

Given, this does not mean that JKR will use time aparition in DH but I hope that this opens the window for all to understand how it may happen. There is no need for a time turner, magical watch etc, and time travel can go both ways, future and past.
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Mad-eye Moody's Law: "Murphy was an optimist!"

Last edited by Sirius Potter Fan; 23-03-2007 at 10:41..
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