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Storyline conspiracy theory "It's obvious what this means, there'll be loads of fog tonight"

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Old 31-01-2006, 23:28   #1
Weasleyfanforever
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Question Grindewald, Dumbledore's Family, and Horcruxes, possibly...

This is an idea from an article I read, and I think it's very interesting, and could be possible, but still very wild spec


I think one of the hardest to read (and also best written) parts of Half Blood Prince was during the time that Dumbledore drank the potion in the cave. It was gut-wrenching to see what he was going through, being so helpless and tormented, while we have seen him so strong and calm.

Here's the basics of what happens in the cave:

After Dumbledore drinks the first glass, his eyes close; he drinks two more glasses, and half way through the third, he stumbles and falls against the basin. He begins breathing heavily, twitching, and panting. He begins speaking in an unrecognizable voice, filled with fear. Dumbledore says:

"'I don't want... Don't make me...'
'...don't like... want to stop...'

'No...'

'I don't want to... I don't want to... let me go...'

'Make it stop, make it stop.'

'No, no, no, no, I can't, I can't, don't make me. I don't want to...'

'It's all my fault, all my fault Please make it stop, I know I did wrong, oh please make it stop and I'll never, never again...'

'Don't hurt them, don't hurt them, please, please, it's my fault, hurt me instead...'

'Please, please, please, no... not that, not that, I'll do anything...'

'No more, please, no more...'

'I want to die! I want to die! Make it stop, make it stop, I want to die!'

'KILL ME!'"

Dumbledore is described as moaning, groaning, sobbing, cowering, shaking from head to foot, screaming, hammering his fists on the ground, yelling and screaming in anguish before finally rolling over onto his face with a rattling gasp.

One thing that I find odd about this whole scene is that Dumbledore's voice is unrecognizable to Harry. It is not that of the almost 160 year old professor he knows, but perhaps that of a child or young adult being tortured, possibly by being made to watch something that shamed and horrified him. We know that Dumbledore must've been seeing some horrible things in his mind to act out the way he did. We know that the only part of Dumbledore's family ever mentioned has been his brother Aberforth. We also know that Dumbledore defeated the Dark Wizard, Grindewald.

Could Grindewald have tortured and/or murdered Dumbledore's family (excluding Aberforth) in front of him? Could he himself have, unknowingly,, contributed in some way to their deaths? We can infer that he is seeing someone else being hurt, that he wants them not to be hurt, and he blames himself for the horror being done. The horror becomes so much that he prefers death to living it any longer. Who, befoer Voldemort's time would have done something like this to another human being? Could it have been Grindewald?

I have before made connections between Grindewald and Tom Riddle, and forgive me for doing it again, but I think it is more than coincidence that Tom Riddle's completion at Hogwarts coincides so closely with Grindewald's defeat.

I think it's possible that Grindelwald's regime involved the torture and/or murder of most of Dumbledore's family. I think this is what he relives in the cave. I think he may have been a young adult at the time it happened, or perhaps older, but incapacitated in some way while it happened, but made to watch.
I don't think that Dumbledore's family trauma is exactly the same as Harry's, as in he was the chosen one to kill Grindewald, but perhaps there were some circumstances in which Dumbledore's family was targeted, and something happened where Albus and Aberforth somehow escaped.


How did Aberforth and Albus escape their family's fate? Does the fact that both are seen as "a bit odd" have something to do with what they witnessed? Could this be the "fate worse than death" that Dumbledore refered to when speaking to Voldemort in the Ministry? Could this have been part of Dumbledore's drive to become so powerful, to exact revenge on Grindewald, and eventually Voldemort, through Harry?

I think it is probable that Grindewald taught Voldemort as an apprentice, and such as he brought about his parents death, he usurped his master as well, but not until after Grindewald taught him something no one else would; what Horcruxes were, and how to make them. But wouldn't Grindewald have used Horcruxes had he known how to make them? Perhaps that is why the defeat of Grindewald is discussed so litlle, because it involved Horcruxes. Maybe he did use them, and that's why Dumbledore's intuition kicked in for Voldemort. When Dumbledore tells Harry that he considered the diary to be proof that Voldemort split his soul, it wasn't the beginning of his suspicions, it was his proof that he was right. Dumbledore says that he is not aware of anyone else making multiple horcruxes, he makes no mention of anyone making just one.

And if Aberforth has the answers to some of these questions, it might be a very profitable line of inquiry...
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Old 03-02-2006, 11:53   #2
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Re: Grindewald, Dumbledore's Family, and Horcruxes, possibly...

I think that is very possible!
It might also explain Dumbledore's resolve in this a well - he lost nearly all to Dark Lord's and also makes it personal.
I think even he knows that as he gets older his ablilty to tackle the ongoing struggle of good versus evil is harder and also shown in his burnt hand and declaration to Slughorn that he is getting old.

As far as Dumbledore and maybe even Aberforth living - perhaps they were almost like Lily and didnt need to die - ergo more evil to leave them alive to live with the losses suffered?
Nice post Wheezy!
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'Don't hurt them, don't hurt then, please, please, it's my fault, hurt me instead ...'
'Please, please, please, no ... not that, not that, I'll do anything ...'

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Old 15-11-2006, 08:51   #3
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Re: Grindewald, Dumbledore's Family, and Horcruxes, possibly...

interesting thoughts, i just have to make mention of the fact that Grindelwald had long been defeated when the prophecy was made. the prophecy was made just before harry was born, somewhere between august 1979 and the may 1980, since the prophecy says "the one with the power to defeat the dark lord will be born as the seventh month dies" and since Grindelwald was defeated in 1945, well, it can only reference Voldemort.
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Old 15-11-2006, 09:59   #4
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Re: Grindewald, Dumbledore's Family, and Horcruxes, possibly...

I'm not sure I agree with what you think DD was seeing in the cave but I really like the idea that Voldemort may hae sought out Grindewald before he was defeated and that may be who taught him about Horcruxes. The only problem is why wouldn't DD have told Harry about this? If DD knew how to destroy Horcruxes and the person who used them it would have been very valuable information to Harry. It is possible that even Grindewald didn't want to use Horcruxes but he did know how and just told Voldemort about them.
If Voldemort did "train" with Grindewald it could be possible that he had some kind of artifact that belonged to Grindewald that he made into a Horcrux, that would be a very significant object to him as I'm sure he looked up to Grindewald who seemed to be fighting the same fight he was.
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Old 13-02-2007, 08:07   #5
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Re: Grindewald, Dumbledore's Family, and Horcruxes, possibly...

What I dont understand about the Grindewald/Dumbledore fight was that if Grindewald was soooo terrible why does everyone act like things were just peacy before Voldemort? Their had to only be a couple years between Grindewald dying and Voldemorts coming to power..we know that but if he did so many bad things why dont people talk about it..like yeah it was this way when Grindewald was powerful too. I donno maybe they were to afraid still but something just strikes me as weird about it. It seems that things havent been good in the wizarding world for many many years, who knows how long Grindewald was around. Thoughts?
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Old 14-02-2007, 07:57   #6
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Re: Grindewald, Dumbledore's Family, and Horcruxes, possibly...

Maybe Grindelwald was a notorious muggle killer, and didnt single out wizards, muggle-born, half-blood or pure blood. maybe he only killed muggles and the wizards who tried to stop him. in this way, everything would have been just peachy keen for wizards, since they werent the targets of his attacks. of course, he would have been a powerful dark wizard to need to be conquered by Dumbledore and thus the ministry would have had the hardest time trying to defeat him, but would leave the general populous alone. it could also be that Grindelwald was active in another country and his reign wherever never reached Britan. kinda like how things were basically peachy in the US until Pearl Harbor happened during WWII.
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Old 16-02-2007, 08:03   #7
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Re: Grindewald, Dumbledore's Family, and Horcruxes, possibly...

Quite like the idea of Weasleyfanforever, Grindewald could have been the "predecessor" of Voldy. And in that case, that would also instill in Voldy the fear for Dumbly's capabilities (being able to defeat Voldy's mentor).
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