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Discussions on general Septology "The One with the Power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches ... "

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Old 05-02-2007, 13:27   #51
Glumbumble
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Re: Cyclic nature of time

Last night I was thinking of starting a new thread entitled “Where does Dumbledore end and Fawkes begin” but in the end I thought that there would be so many references to this thread that I thought I would put it in here and see how it runs.

It seems to me that we have been shown three ideas if “immortality” throughout the series.

We have seen the Philosophers/Sorcerers Stone producing the elixir of life and keeping the Flamel’s alive, but presumably ageing, for more than six centuries until the threat of Voldemort obtaining the stone caused him to destroy it.

We have Voldemort’s horcruxes that have prevented his death and enabled him to be reborn into his old body as a temporary measure until he achieves his aim of immortality.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Voldemort. GoF
"There was no hope of stealing the Sorcerer's Stone anymore, for I knew that Dumbledore would have seen to it that it was destroyed. But I was willing to embrace mortal life again, before chasing immortality. I set my sights lower ... I would settle for my old body back again, and my old strength.
Both Flamel and Voldemort appear to have achieved/aimed for a linear form of immortality.

The ourobouros represents the concept of a cyclical nature of time, birth, death and rebirth.

This is best represented by the life, and continuing lives of the phoenix.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CoS
"Fawkes is a phoenix, Harry. Phoenixes burst into flame when it is time for them to die and are reborn from the ashes. Watch him . . ."
Harry looked down in time to see a tiny, wrinkled, newborn bird poke its head out of the ashes. It was quite as ugly as the old one.
Remembering Dumbledore’s funeral,

Quote:
Originally Posted by HBP
Then several people screamed. Bright, white flames had erupted around Dumbledore's body and the table upon which it lay: higher and higher they rose, obscuring the body. White smoke spiralled into the air and made strange shapes: Harry thought, for one heart-stopping moment, that he saw a phoenix fly joyfully into the blue, but next second the fire had vanished. In its place was a white marble tomb, encasing Dumbledore's body and the table on which he had rested.
I am sure that JKR does not mislead but when she says Dumbledore is dead does she mean dead in the sense that phoenixes die and are reborn again.

If, like a phoenix, Dumbledore, or at least his soul, is, in some way reborn it might explain his relationship with Nicholas Flamel. It could also explain why Fawkes has only had one owner. Indeed is Fawkes the secret of how Dumbledore’s soul regenerates?


Throughout these threads we have debated not only the issue of time but also that of fire and flames. Perhaps a Dumbledore phoenix is the answer that brings both sets of clues together.

Dumbledore said

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dumbledore. OotP
`There is nothing worse than death, Dumbledore!' snarled Voldemort.
`You are quite wrong,' said Dumbledore, still closing in upon Voldemort and speaking as lightly as though they were discussing the matter over drinks. Harry felt scared to see him walking along, undefended, shieldless; he wanted to cry out a warning, but his headless guard kept shunting him backwards towards the wall, blocking his every attempt to get out from behind it. `Indeed, your failure to understand that there are things much worse than death has always been your greatest weakness.
Perhaps what is worse than death is living through the eternal battle between good and evil.

So the question is part of the opening sentence. “Where does Dumbledore end and Fawkes begin”
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Old 05-02-2007, 14:05   #52
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Re: Cyclic nature of time

Quote:
Originally Posted by Glumbumble View Post
...Throughout these threads we have debated not only the issue of time but also that of fire and flames. Perhaps a Dumbledore phoenix is the answer that brings both sets of clues together...
Only an aside: Maybe the issue of "fire and flames" is also hidden in the name of Nicolas FLAMEL, given JKR's tendency to play with names and meanings.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Glumbumble View Post
So the question is part of the opening sentence. “Where does Dumbledore end and Fawkes begin”
A very clever post, Glumbumble - but still: JKR said Dumbledore wasn't going to "do a Gandalf". Don't you think she would have avoided that phrase if, secretly, she was planning to have Dumbledore "do a Fawkes"? I don't think so. There is only a certain degree to which JKR is playing with her readership, and I don't think she would be prepared to fool them in such a silly manner.
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Old 05-02-2007, 15:05   #53
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Re: Cyclic nature of time

I don't think that Tenzin Gyatso, the 14th and current Dalai Lama, sees himself as doing a Gandolf.

There is a major difference in what I am saying and the example you are quoting. Gandalf was not reborn as a child, to grow older again. A phoenix does that. It dies and is reborn, it lives again, dies and is reborn yet again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wikipedia
Upon the death of the Dalai Lama, his monks institute a search for the Lama's reincarnation, or yangsi (yang srid), a small child. Familiarity with the possessions of the previous Dalai Lama is considered the main sign of the reincarnation. The search for the reincarnation typically requires a few years. The reincarnation is then brought to Lhasa to be trained by the other Lamas.
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Old 05-02-2007, 15:20   #54
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Re: Cyclic nature of time

Quote:
Originally Posted by Glumbumble View Post
I don't think that Tenzin Gyatso, the 14th and current Dalai Lama, sees himself as doing a Gandolf.

There is a major difference in what I am saying and the example you are quoting. Gandalf was not reborn as a child, to grow older again. A phoenix does that. It dies and is reborn, it lives again, dies and is reborn yet again.
I see - I didn't follow the implications of your train of thought. So you think that somewhere (probably in Britain), a child was born when Dumbledore's body burnt to ashes ... and - maybe - Fawkes is already on the lookout, or even knows where to go to rejoin his master and friend. Maybe.
I don't see, however, how that could play a big role in DH - unless this part of the septology covers more than one year.
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Old 05-02-2007, 15:39   #55
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Re: Cyclic nature of time

In the search for the latest incarnation monks "monks institute a search for the Lama's reincarnation, . . a small child. Familiarity with the possessions of the previous Dalai Lama is considered the main sign of the reincarnation."
In our case I think that the search or selection or anointment or whatever the process is is done by Fawkes. Remember what Harry saw at the funeral, "for one heart-stopping moment, that he saw a phoenix fly joyfully into the blue," perhaps that was Dumbledore's gheist.
How does the idea of Harry not being the heir of Gryffindor but being the latest incarnation of Gryffindor. I am sure that JKR has said that Harry gets a new pet!!
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There was the Veil through which I could not see:
Some little talk awhile of Me and Thee
There was -- and then no more of Thee and Me.

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Last edited by Glumbumble; 06-02-2007 at 04:00.. Reason: spelling
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Old 05-02-2007, 15:56   #56
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Re: Cyclic nature of time

A brilliant question, G. I have said a number of times that I believe it very possible that JKR's statement that Dumbledore is "definitely dead" could be veiled by the fact that Dumbledore's animagus form is a phoenix. She would not be lying---phoenixes most definitely die. Now....you've got me thinking wildly, so forgive me if I ramble, and you won't hurt my feelings if you don't like the idea----maybe the "gleam of something like triumph" in Dumbledore's eyes was because of Harry's description of Voldemort's rebirth---perhaps it confirmed to him that there is a spell that can regenerate the body so that the soul, or part of it, can be redeposited in it, or, as in Voldemort's case, transform a shrivelled, infant-like creature into the fully grown adult version. If the regenerated Voldemort can now tuch Harry without pain, perhaps a regenerated Dumbledore would be able to penetrate some unknown protection Voldemort has from him. I know I'm not answering your question, but rather going off on my own tangent----sorry about that----your initial question just got my wheels turning.

I am looking forward to reading further speculation on G's question....
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