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Old 28-12-2005, 12:14   #11
Alz
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Re: Cyclic nature of time

So can we think of the uses or maybe the implications JKR will face when using cyclic nature in her final book?
In fact - does anyone feel this it totaly over-analysis and that there is no uses for time in the big, unanswered question left in the series?
Is it possible JKR threw in the time references as red herrings - to try and divert people away from things - or are they there to cause speculation?
I suppose I was just curious how you all thought this could fit into the series at this late stage ...
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Old 05-01-2006, 03:07   #12
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Re: Cyclic nature of time

Since most trains of thought lead directly to time-tampering, cyclical time, missing time, time, time, tick, tock-well you get the idea! No I don't think it's over-analyzing by a long shot....I think the timing of events in her world are key to figuring out anything...Of course she has tried to confuzzle us on that front

Just wanted to add something to original thread here that I found quite interesting. Looking over Book 1 at the only description we have of the Bloody Baron-
SS/PS pg. 124- Harry looked over at the Sytherin table and saw a horrible ghost sitting there. with blank staring eyes, a gaunt face, and robes stained withsilver blood.
While I had caught the silver(unicorn) blood(used for a 1/2 life ) before, obviously the gaunt face went unnoticed until Book 6-post HBP this seems highly relevant! Can't quite decide if this relates to Salazar himself or to Marvolo and Morphin(one g short of morphing)-however I will guess that the Bloody Baron is where Jr. got his information concerning multiple horcruxes...Any thoughts?
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Old 05-01-2006, 12:13   #13
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Re: Cyclic nature of time

The Bloody Baron looks to be dead proof of what happens when you try and sustain your life past it's limit's - the silver blood he wears in his death symbolising his curse of the terrible act ...
Now lets look at what you said because it makes sense to me in a sorta kind of way - we know that Riddle was obsessed with his mortality (Based on his shameful, magical mothers death) ... so who better to speak to about the ways to sustain life than the ghost knocking around covered in unicorn blood - I am sure Riddle knew by this time that unicorn blood can sustain you - wonder if he asked the BB 'any other tips?'
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Old 08-01-2006, 03:05   #14
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Re: Cyclic nature of time

Well if the Bloody Baron as part of my original spec is actually true-then I'd say he definately gave him alot more tips Could this have something to do w/why the other ghosts are so afraid of him? What affect does a horcrux have on a ghost-they seem awfully similar to each other in some ways. I mean what could the BB be threatening other ghosts with-they are already dead. Could the basilisk's ability to freeze Nick tie in somehow? hmmm..
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Old 08-01-2006, 12:48   #15
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Re: Cyclic nature of time

I think the other ghosts are afraid of him because he drank unicorn blood and lived a longer life but cursed - because he wears that blood in his death I think they belive he is still being cursed and to get to close and all ....
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Old 16-01-2006, 05:46   #16
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Re: Cyclic nature of time

I was sifting through J.K.R.'s site and interviews this weekend and some things just sort of clicked in relation to my original spec. that Salazar's locket was his horcrux. I was thinking about the commonality of the number seven as it applies to Merope/Ginny. The name Merope is one of the Seven Pleiades and of course Ginny is the seventh Weasley-could this be a clue to linking the locket and the diary? My thought here was that the diary was one of Voldemort's horcruxes that would have been given a body if the plan would have succeeded-and this was fifty years after it's creation-so time is not an issue apparently. Couldn't Salazar have done something similiar? I'll start w/J.K.R.'s answer to the FAQ ?-What would have happened if Ginny had died and TR had escaped the diary?

"I can't answer that fully until all seven books are finished, but it would have strengthened the present day Voldemort considerably"

If my guess that the locket Merope had was Salazar's horcrux-I can see why she can't answer until seven She already gave us hints about what would have happened-

COS-pg." 313- But there isn't much life left in her...She put too much into the diary, into me. Enough to leave it's pages at last..."

pg.-316" It looked bad, all right....but the longer Riddle stood there, the more life was dwindling out of Ginny....and in the meantime, Harry noticed suddenly, Riddle's outline was becoming clearer, more solid...."

I realize the fact that Riddle Jr. looking like Tom Sr. is riddling We were told in HBP that -

HBP pg.269-There was no trace of the Gaunts in Tom Riddle's face. Merope had got her dying wish. He was his handsome father in minature ...

Children often look like their parent but her use of the word minature here is telling to me. I keep thinking about the bell jar and shrinking spells, but given that there was a Tom Sr. still around...I don't know-still working on what kind of magic fits. I also get the feeling this is why Merope died(something similiar to Ginny)
In my first spec. I was speculating that Salazar could be Bloody Baron or Binns-but I now realize that I wasn't looking at this right. I was thinking of Vapormort instead of Voldemort before AK rebound-Voldemort did have a body and in fact in we have seen that he still looked relatively normal after he made both the ring and the diary horcrux(when he worked at Borgin and Burkes). So in reality-if Salazar is still hanging around he could be any one of our characters Of course I'm biased and even though it's wild-much of this spec. makes sense to me, and even though there are a few loose threads the basic premise is fairly simple which I like! Sure would love to hear ideas

Last edited by SnarkologyMajor; 16-01-2006 at 13:30..
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Old 16-01-2006, 11:49   #17
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Re: Cyclic nature of time

OK - you are going to need to slow down and run that again - I got lost
I got the feeling you suggested that Slytherin's locket is a horcrux for Salazar - if that is the case why isnt Salazar still alive?
Then you said something about Riddle Snr - that totally lost me - can you explain that one?
Sorry if I am being dense but I really do like to understand something so I can either get behind it or dismiss it
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'Don't hurt them, don't hurt then, please, please, it's my fault, hurt me instead ...'
'Please, please, please, no ... not that, not that, I'll do anything ...'

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'Merely taking your life would not satisfy me..'
Dumbledore - OoTP "The only one he ever feared" Pg895
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Old 16-01-2006, 13:28   #18
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Re: Cyclic nature of time

Alz-this was some additional thoughts attached to the first spec. on the thread, I guess you kind of have to read the two posts as one If it would make it easier I could rework it into one?
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Old 18-01-2006, 12:40   #19
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Re: Cyclic nature of time

LOL - well it could have been me I suppose - but if you dont mind it would probably help to have the opening topic refreshed back into the thread for people who only read last posts and all rather than the whole threads.
Cheers!
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'Please make it stop, I know I did wrong, oh, please make it stop and i'll never, never again..'
'Don't hurt them, don't hurt then, please, please, it's my fault, hurt me instead ...'
'Please, please, please, no ... not that, not that, I'll do anything ...'

Dumbledore - HBP Pg536

'Merely taking your life would not satisfy me..'
Dumbledore - OoTP "The only one he ever feared" Pg895
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Old 19-01-2006, 04:40   #20
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Re: Cyclic nature of time

Quote:
Originally Posted by SnarkologyMajor
Alz, I do not feel that you were off on theory about time, since one of the running themes in her septology, seems to be the cyclical nature of time. This is a bit of a loaded question for me, since I have been working on a whopper of speculation concerning time. Ever since J.K.R.'s "mistake" in COS-

Quick-Quotes Quill- Is Voldemort the last remaining ancestor of Salazar Slytherin or the last remaining descendant?
JKR-Ah..you spotted the deliberate error.

US COS pg. 332 "...who is the last remaining ancestor of Salazar Slytherin."

I have been obsessed with this puzzle. It seemed she was hinting they were one and the same person. Not to mention the time-turner in POA, the bell jar in OOTP, and Snape's comments that time and space matter in magic. Of course, every scenario contemplated, hit the proverbial wall. There is a quote from Dumbledore in OOTP that struck me as something one would say if they were repeating theirself-

US OOTP pg. 814 "Indeed, your failure to understand that there are things much worse than death, has ALWAYS been your greatest weakness."

Being doomed by your own actions to feel pain beyond imagining and pain past endurance, over & over, again & again...well, that sounds worse than death to me. Now in HBP, it seems we have some clues to a plausible solution, of course there are kinks, but that is why I finally worked up the nerve to try a forum, to share ideas in the spirit of cooperation.
When we get our first glimpse of young Tom Jr. in Ch. 13, I was overwhelmed with the notion that Tom was never a normal, healthy human being. Something was just plain wrong. One of the frustrating things about the preceding books, was the difficulty in trying to pinpoint what made Voldemort tick. My next thought was, what in heaven's name did Merope do? Well...she did have Slytherin's locket and we know that it had powers.

US HBP pg. 437 "...Pretty, isn't it? And again, all kinds of powers attributed to it, though I just keep it nice and safe."

I feel that Dumbledore's guess that Merope used a love potion, was a bit off the mark. Since the potion itself was complicated and required many ingredients, where would she have learned how to make it or acquire the necessary ingredients?
Now here is where I "leave the firm foundation of fact and journey into the thickets of wildest guesswork." Feel free to critisize, that's why I'm here.
What if Tom Jr. not only wanted the locket to make a horcrux, what if the locket was Slytherin's horcrux in the first place? We know at least one wizard split his soul-

US HBP CH. 23 pg. 500 "As far as I know-as far , I am sure, as Voldemort knew- no wizard had ever done more than tear his soul in two."

Ever since GOF, we know that you can give a formless spirit a body. My guess is that Peter was able to help Voldemort do this, because he either had or went and found one of his horcruxes. There is a quote from Jo's TLC/Mugglenet interview that I think gives us a hint-

"The one that I wondered whether I was going to be able to get past the editors was the physical condition of Voldemort before he went into the cauldron, do you remember? He was kind of fetal. I felt an almost visceral distaste for what I had conjured up, but there's a reason it was in there and you will see that."

Ms. Rowling's particular use of the word fetal caught my ear, since the circumstances surrounding Jr.s conception didn't seem to add up. What if Merope somehow released Slytherin's horcrux and received instructions of how to give him back a mortal body? I am truthfully still debating this idea and working on supporting canon. I like Snape's statement-

US HBP CH. 9 pg. 177 "The Dark Arts," said Snape "are many, varied, ever-changing, and eternal. Fighting them is like fighting a many-headed monster, which, each time a neck is severed, sprouts a head even fiercer and cleverer than before. You are fighting that which is unfixed, mutating, indestructible."

My daughter pointed out that if Salazar split his soul, some form of him would still be around. This stopped the whole theory until I realized we actually have two candidates. The Bloody Baron and Professor Binns. I know, I know...they're ghosts, right? Voldemort said in-

US GOF pg. 653 "I was ripped from my body, less than spirit, less than the meanest ghost..."

Voldemort split his soul multiple times, we don't know what form you take when you split your soul once. We have double B's and silver clues in all six books and the Bloody Baron has silver blood stains. For all we know, unicorn blood may be essential in the creation of a horcrux since Firenze informed Harry in Book 1-

-US SS pg. 258 "....you will have but a half-life, a cursed life, from the moment the blood touches your lips."

Sounds like splitting your soul. We also have rubbish clues littered(teehee) throughout the series and the irony of Prof. Binns being Slytherin's spirit (half a spirit technically) is striking, since he is the one who told them the legend of the Chamber of Secrets was a foolish story. Wasn't there speculation among the student body, that he didn't realize he died and just kept right on teaching History of Magic?
Now this whole spec. hinges on Voldemort falling through The Veil and going back in time, so it would have to be a time portal instead of a one-way ticket to death (of course if you go into the distant past, you are most certainly dead in the present). Voldemort goes back and becomes Salazar who creates a horcrux and voila- you have a fairly tight time loop. I did say this was alot of guesswork!
I should point out, that while my daughter and mother feel that alot of this theory could work, they don't like the idea of the locket as a horcrux, rather some other form of magic w/ similar results. One idea is that Salazar put his memories in the locket?

I would love to hear any ideas!

Darn! I just realized I have to counter my own post. This theory doesn't hinge on the Veil being a time portal, it hinges on Voldemort going through ANY time portal. With all the Lewis Carroll clues I'm sure there is one around! I've always wondered what would happen if you asked the room of requirement to become Hogwarts 1,000 yrs. ago? There is the Mirror of Erised and Sirius's mirror. I've had suspicion's about that statue of Salazar too, when the basilisk came out of the mouth, remember? I kind of wondered if that is a time portal, I mean how do you really keep a basilisk hidden for so long?

I was sifting through J.K.R.'s site and interviews this weekend and some things just sort of clicked in relation to my original spec. that Salazar's locket was his horcrux. I was thinking about the commonality of the number seven as it applies to Merope/Ginny. The name Merope is one of the Seven Pleiades and of course Ginny is the seventh Weasley-could this be a clue to linking the locket and the diary? My thought here was that the diary was one of Voldemort's horcruxes that would have been given a body if the plan would have succeeded-and this was fifty years after it's creation-so time is not an issue apparently. Couldn't Salazar have done something similiar? I'll start w/J.K.R.'s answer to the FAQ ?-What would have happened if Ginny had died and TR had escaped the diary?

"I can't answer that fully until all seven books are finished, but it would have strengthened the present day Voldemort considerably"

If my guess that the locket Merope had was Salazar's horcrux-I can see why she can't answer until seven She already gave us hints about what would have happened-

COS-pg." 313- But there isn't much life left in her...She put too much into the diary, into me. Enough to leave it's pages at last..."

pg.-316" It looked bad, all right....but the longer Riddle stood there, the more life was dwindling out of Ginny....and in the meantime, Harry noticed suddenly, Riddle's outline was becoming clearer, more solid...."

I realize the fact that Riddle Jr. looking like Tom Sr. is riddling We were told in HBP that -

HBP pg.269-There was no trace of the Gaunts in Tom Riddle's face. Merope had got her dying wish. He was his handsome father in minature ...

Children often look like their parent but her use of the word minature here is telling to me. I keep thinking about the bell jar and shrinking spells, but given that there was a Tom Sr. still around...I don't know-still working on what kind of magic fits. I also get the feeling this is why Merope died(something similiar to Ginny)
In my first spec. I was speculating that Salazar could be Bloody Baron or Binns-but I now realize that I wasn't looking at this right. I was thinking of Vapormort instead of Voldemort before AK rebound-Voldemort did have a body and in fact in we have seen that he still looked relatively normal after he made both the ring and the diary horcrux(when he worked at Borgin and Burkes). So in reality-if Salazar is still hanging around he could be any one of our characters Of course I'm biased and even though it's wild-much of this spec. makes sense to me, and even though there are a few loose threads the basic premise is fairly simple which I like! Sure would love to hear ideas
I am perhaps finding some more things to add but....would like to here other ideas I feel that Voldemort/Slytherin is the Ouroboros or the equivalant of Sysiphus.

Last edited by Alz; 19-01-2006 at 11:57..
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