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Discussions on general Septology "The One with the Power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches ... "

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Old 30-04-2006, 10:56   #1
Alz
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Talking Prophecy & Trelawney

Credit to Forte on this one ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by HBP - The Seer Overheard
He questioned me ... I must confess that, at first, I thought he seemed ill-disposed towards Divination ... and I remember I was starting to feel a little odd, I had not eaten much that day ... but then ...

....

'... but then we were rudely interrupted by Severus Snape!'
'What?'
'Yes, there was a commotion outside the door and it flew open, and there was that rather uncouth barman standing there with Snape, who was waffling about having come the wrong way up the stairs ...
OMG -
Dont you see it - Dumbledore said that Sybil was unaware of what she predicited ...
BUT - yet she could perfectly re-tell the incident with the eavesdropper - and we know that the eavesdropper was ejected after hearing the first part of the Prophecy ... which means Sybil continued to tell more after the indident .... and most of all, she was bloody aware of what was going on!
Heck she could re-tell the details very nicely - so why the heck does Dumbledore tell Harry she is unaware?
Harry has never confronted her on the details because Dumbledore tells him it would be wise she didnt know - could this be a major Dumbledore lie!
Think about it - tell Harry she isnt aware, tell Harry best not to tell her - Harry would never go to her and ask her details about it - but yet fate steps in and Harry is far too annoyed to really understand what he was hearing and to question does Sybil really know?

EDIT Also - figure in that maybe Dumbledore told Sybil never to tell Harry about the details - and that is why she never let on she knew the details directly to Harry!
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Last edited by Alz; 01-05-2006 at 11:03..
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Old 01-05-2006, 12:13   #2
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Re: Prophecy & Trelawney

I sort of have a hard time believing that Trelawney is bright enough to keep that type of secret. I think if she knew something like that she would lock Harry away in her tower and read his tea leaves all day.

I think probably her remarks were more general to the fact that she recalled seeing Snape, but she did admit that she hadn't ate anything all day and was a bit light headed. Maybe she takes being light headed as the same thing as making an actual prediction.

After all that happened to her in OotP, and the fact that in HBP she had to share her teaching job with someone else, it seemed to make something wake within her. She seemed in tune with things in HBP, way more then any of the previous years.
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Old 01-05-2006, 13:12   #3
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Re: Prophecy & Trelawney

I always found that odd too.

That is why I am wondering if Snape did indeed hear the whole prophecy. How could she start a prediction stop and hear the commotion and then continue? Also when DD put that memory in the penseive we heard the whole thing and there was no stopping in the middle.
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Old 02-05-2006, 11:24   #4
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Re: Prophecy & Trelawney

See that is the exact questions I was looking for - Sybil quite clearly remembers Snape being there - we are told by Dumbledore that the 'eavesdropper' was ejected half way through - Sybil saw him with Aberforth - so clearly we have some questions to address here ...
Dumbledore gives the impression Sybil is not there mentally during her Prophecies and to be fair to that we had a demonstration in PoA - but, and always a but - her facts speak for themselves - she was able to recall events half way through!
This of course leads weight to the thinking that there is more to the prophecy and also that the prophecy seemed like it was broken - but the fact Sybil came back half way through just seems plain freaky if she had no recall on the prophecy itself - I sense a lie by someone!
Heck, i'm not dismissing the idea that perhaps she concealed this from Dumbledore - i.e. she was awake and just pretended to Dumbledore she was out of it - but the facts as written in HBP stand for themselves!
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'Please make it stop, I know I did wrong, oh, please make it stop and i'll never, never again..'
'Don't hurt them, don't hurt then, please, please, it's my fault, hurt me instead ...'
'Please, please, please, no ... not that, not that, I'll do anything ...'

Dumbledore - HBP Pg536

'Merely taking your life would not satisfy me..'
Dumbledore - OoTP "The only one he ever feared" Pg895
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Old 03-05-2006, 11:28   #5
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Re: Prophecy & Trelawney

Right Alz.

That is why I think she told the whole prophecy through and came out of it and heard the commotion and Snape was snagged eavesdropping. Do you think he may have said he only heard a part of it? Or did he and DD have a talk after Snape came back to join the good side and agreed to only tell Voldy a part of the prophecy in hopes it would lead to his downfall? (Of course not realizing that the Potters would be in danger because of it)
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Old 03-05-2006, 20:29   #6
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Re: Prophecy & Trelawney

I don't believe for a minute that she is aware of when she makes a "real" prophecy. I think what most likely, that she started the prophesy, the comotion broke the trance (with her still not knowing she had done anything) then once the comotion ended, the "spirit" came back to her and finished the prophecy. If she was totaly unaware of being in a trance once, she would have been unaware as she returned to it after Snape was gone. It would seem to her like nothing at all had happened. So, I believe that Trelawney is totaly clueless about the prophecy as DD has told us and as we have figured out from reading (she was unaware of anything happening in PoA when she predicted Wormtail returning to Voldemort)

Then as far as the memory of the prophecy being complete, that may have simply been "trimmed" to just the relevant informatin, we do know that people can modify their own memories, as Sluggy did, but with his talent, I think DD could d a much better seemless job!
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Old 03-05-2006, 22:18   #7
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Re: Prophecy & Trelawney

I think the entire thing could be a ruse, the part with Snape overhearing the prophecy. The only way it would work the way it is laid out is if Snape heard the first part of the prophecy because he had his ear to the door, then he was interrupted by Aberforth and that is why he missed the ending of it, the most important part. If Aberforth caught him halfway through the prophecy and Snape spent a moment blubbering out his excuse, that would have caused him to miss the end of it and would be why she would have seen him when Aberforth opened the door to tell Dumbledore what had happened. She would have been done with her trance at that point, and thus noticed Snape.
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What did I care if numbers of nameless and faceless people and creatures were slaughtered in the vague future, if in the here and now you were alive, and well, and happy?
Albus Dumbledore



"I miss having you in my classes, Harry, you were never much of a Seer . . . but you were a wonderful Object . . . "
Sybil Trelawney

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Old 04-05-2006, 11:47   #8
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Re: Prophecy & Trelawney

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seeker615
Right Alz.

That is why I think she told the whole prophecy through and came out of it and heard the commotion and Snape was snagged eavesdropping. Do you think he may have said he only heard a part of it? Or did he and DD have a talk after Snape came back to join the good side and agreed to only tell Voldy a part of the prophecy in hopes it would lead to his downfall? (Of course not realizing that the Potters would be in danger because of it)
This has been suggested a few time - Dumbledore used it to set the wheels in motion ...
My best argument with that is the regret Snape felt, as Dumbledore told Harry at the end of HBP - if it was a well executed plan then Snape shouldn't feel so guilty that his information lead Voldemort on his path.
Forte makes a good point, alas IMHO I think not correct but still plausible - perhaps Snape did hear the start and then the events of being caught eavesdropping lead to him missing the last part and thus the affray broke into the room just as Sybil finished up ...
I would add one more thought to this - why did Dumbledore let Snape go, it would appear he knew pretty much all DE's because of his order work and should therefore have known Snape would go back to Voldemort - and he was aware that the eavesdropper heard the first part - so perhaps we are back to what Seeker is suggesting - it was executed as a plan ... not even Dumbledore could have known then that Harry would be the boy - could have been Neville!

Still OT somewhat - I really am starting to think Sybil know the prophecy and she is exactly like Harry - asked by Dumbledore not to tell because of the effects it would have on the other party - crap even Dumbledore re-iterated to Harry it would be unwise for Sybil to find it all out - I just have this image of him giving the same speech to Sybil ...
Has Harry ever told anyone, no, he kept his word to Dumbledore .... I think Sybil would do the Headmaster the same service!
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'It's all my fault, all my fault'
'Please make it stop, I know I did wrong, oh, please make it stop and i'll never, never again..'
'Don't hurt them, don't hurt then, please, please, it's my fault, hurt me instead ...'
'Please, please, please, no ... not that, not that, I'll do anything ...'

Dumbledore - HBP Pg536

'Merely taking your life would not satisfy me..'
Dumbledore - OoTP "The only one he ever feared" Pg895
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Old 10-07-2006, 08:22   #9
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Re: Prophecy & Trelawney

I know this is sort of "out there" but what if, going on my prior assumption that Snape was interrupted half way though the prophecy and the reason Trelawney knew he was there was because by the time Snape made his excuses to Aberforth, she was done with her trance.

But what if????

I know it sounds out there, but if she was in a trance, what if the act of Aberforth busting in to tell Dumbledore he caught Snape, what if she wasn't done and simply came out of her trance because of the ruckus? What if there was more to the prophecy that she never got to finish?

It seems she doesn't remember making the prophecy, but she does remember what drew her attention to the door, Snape's waffling about how he took the wrong way up the stairs. It could be possible that it was enough noise to break her trance and she never finished her prediction. Maybe there was another stanza?????
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What did I care if numbers of nameless and faceless people and creatures were slaughtered in the vague future, if in the here and now you were alive, and well, and happy?
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"I miss having you in my classes, Harry, you were never much of a Seer . . . but you were a wonderful Object . . . "
Sybil Trelawney
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Old 10-07-2006, 15:33   #10
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Trelawney has no idea of her real capcities...

hi,

given the wording of Trelawney's story, I rather think that Snape was caught listening while she was in trance and telling the first part. He missed the second part of the prophecy while inventing a story for Aberforth and trying to escape (IMO). Then either the noise Snape and Aberforth created woke Trelawney up or she's just through with the prophecy when Snape is led in the room.

As POA proofs (and SPF mentionned before), Trelawney does not remember her prophecies and her trance (Jo generally uses the caracter of Dumbledore to tell us the truth, not for giving a possibly biased view), so from her point of view, the interruption would appear to her just like happening in the middle of the "normal" conversation with Dumbledore questionning her. She would consider Snape an ignorant and rude intruder making her interview even more difficult.

The wording of Trelawneys sentence
Quote:
'... but then we were rudely interrupted by Severus Snape!'
'What?'
'Yes, there was a commotion outside the door and it flew open, and there was that rather uncouth barman standing there with Snape, who was waffling about having come the wrong way up the stairs ...
fits also perfectly this way. Personnally, I can not imagine a prophecy or a trance beeing interrupted and then be continued exactly where it stopped and with the same level of trance...!? Sounds not very plausible to me, but then I'm perhaps too logic-orientated...

cu around,
TP
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