Left Page Border
Makes the header linkable

Go Back   The Final Horcrux > Discussions on Half-Blood Prince > HBP Analysis

HBP Analysis A deeper and meaningful look at the details of HBP

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 06-08-2005, 15:15   #1
Alz
Head Unspeakable
 
Alz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: West Coast US, originally UK!!
Age: 45
Posts: 7,108
Rep Power: 10Alz is on a distinguished road

Lightbulb **Spoilers Lord Voldemorts Request **

OK - Chapter knowledge is desired on this on - more the part when Dumbledore show's Harry his last meeting with Voldemort ...

As I read this 'meeting' between the 2 I saw a great deal of things - but Dumbledore left this with a question - and indeed I ask you all it now ...

Why did Voldemort want to return to Hogwarts?

Dumbledore concludes both in the meeting and later to Harry that Voldemort did not want to DADA job ...
I, personally am not so sure ... notice how Voldemort behaves once he knows that the DADA job is off the table and not an option ... he ends the conference and leaves ...
And as concluded - no-one was able to stay in the DADA job for more than a year from that point forward ...

So - tell me your thoughts on this small piece of HBP - how do you see both Dumbledore and Voldemort in this dialogue?
__________________
'It's all my fault, all my fault'
'Please make it stop, I know I did wrong, oh, please make it stop and i'll never, never again..'
'Don't hurt them, don't hurt then, please, please, it's my fault, hurt me instead ...'
'Please, please, please, no ... not that, not that, I'll do anything ...'

Dumbledore - HBP Pg536

'Merely taking your life would not satisfy me..'
Dumbledore - OoTP "The only one he ever feared" Pg895
Alz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-08-2005, 02:28   #2
Fortescue
Totally Potterfied!
 
Fortescue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: The wall next to Dumbledore . . .
Posts: 1,518
Rep Power: 16Fortescue will become famous soon enough

Re: **Spoliers Lord Voldemorts Request **

After Harry viewed the memory with Dumbledore of Voldemort's return to Hogwarts, Dumbledore told him in fact, Voldemort did want the DADA job, but he did not reveal what he, Dumbledore, thought Voldemort's true purpose was for wanting a place within the school until after Harry collected the memory from Slughorn that made Dumbledore's knowledge of the Horcruxes complete.

Quote:

Horcruxes - HBP, pg. 505 US

"I cannot answer for whether he ever managed to find anything of Ravenclaw's. I am confident, however, that the only known relic of Gryffindor remains safe."

Dumbledore pointed his blackened fingers to the wall behind him, where a ruby-encrusted sword reposed within a glass case.

"Do you think that's why he really wanted to come back to Hogwarts, sir?" said Harry. "To try and find something from one of the other founders?"

"My thoughts precisely," said Dumbledore.


Clearly, Dumbledore thought Voldemort was after those items he thought would make the best Horcurxes - magical trophies to complete his collection of items that had belonged to the four founders of Hogwarts. Voldemort's request for the teaching position was simply a way to get his foot in the door so he'd have time to take the remaining items he needed for his Horcruxes.
__________________
What did I care if numbers of nameless and faceless people and creatures were slaughtered in the vague future, if in the here and now you were alive, and well, and happy?
Albus Dumbledore



"I miss having you in my classes, Harry, you were never much of a Seer . . . but you were a wonderful Object . . . "
Sybil Trelawney
Fortescue is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-08-2005, 07:19   #3
Tonks
Unspeakable
 
Tonks's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: USA
Age: 30
Posts: 1,420
Rep Power: 17Tonks is on a distinguished road

Re: **Spoliers Lord Voldemorts Request **

My thoughts on this were pretty much on target with Forte's - however, I have to wonder how on earth he thought he was going to be able to find some such artifacts. I doubt Voldemort knew about Gryffindor's sword, especially since it wasn't discovered until after he tried to get the teaching job. Did he know about it before then, though, and hope to find it before anyone else did?

Were there possibly other secret hiding spots of the other founders, something like the Chamber of Secrets for Helga, Godric, or Rowena? They probably wouldn't be as well know as the Chamber because I doubt they would keep a terrible monster in theirs - so as such perhaps nobody ever looked for them because only a select few knew they existed. Why would Voldemort think that he had the abilities to find such artifacts when nobody else for a thousand years did?
__________________

"Remember Cedric. Remember, if the time should come when you have to make a choice between what is right and what is easy, remember what happened to a boy who was good, and kind, and brave, because he strayed across the path of Lord Voldemort. Remember Cedric Diggory."
- Albus Dumbledore
Tonks is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-08-2005, 12:08   #4
Alz
Head Unspeakable
 
Alz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: West Coast US, originally UK!!
Age: 45
Posts: 7,108
Rep Power: 10Alz is on a distinguished road

Re: **Spoliers Lord Voldemorts Request **

As you can imagine - I dont agree ...
I really think he believed that Dumbledore was going to give him his shot at DADA teacher - he was declind in the past because of age - but now he was older and wiser ...
If his progative was to get access to these objects - then why did he leave as soon as he knew he wouldnt get the job?
I mean - I can see your point - but if he really wanted these things to complete his Horcrux - he would have made more of an argument or indeed more force into getting in there ...
I think he genuinly wanted to be at Hogwarts as a Prof - the fact he lost the plot and could no longer tell how far from reality he was - well he couldnt see it ...
__________________
'It's all my fault, all my fault'
'Please make it stop, I know I did wrong, oh, please make it stop and i'll never, never again..'
'Don't hurt them, don't hurt then, please, please, it's my fault, hurt me instead ...'
'Please, please, please, no ... not that, not that, I'll do anything ...'

Dumbledore - HBP Pg536

'Merely taking your life would not satisfy me..'
Dumbledore - OoTP "The only one he ever feared" Pg895
Alz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-08-2005, 19:25   #5
Sirius Potter Fan
Night Patroll
 
Sirius Potter Fan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Tulsa, OK USA
Age: 53
Posts: 1,690
Rep Power: 16Sirius Potter Fan is on a distinguished road

Re: **Spoilers Lord Voldemorts Request **

I think if he wanted to just look for relics hidden in the castle, he wouldn't have cared a lick if he got the job or not. Still, no one other than him knew where the Chamber of Secrets was, nor could they get in there. Once in the castle he could hide out in the chamber, and use the pipes etc. to do all the searching he wanted. Riddle really did want that job for some reason, could it be the same reason Dumbledore held out so long with Snape? this really needs some thought!
__________________
Where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.
His memory will live on . . .




There is no place I know to compare with pure imagination; living there you'll be free, if you truly wish to be.
_Willy Wonka

Murphy's Law: "Whatever can go wrong, will."

Mad-eye Moody's Law: "Murphy was an optimist!"
Sirius Potter Fan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-08-2005, 12:04   #6
Alz
Head Unspeakable
 
Alz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: West Coast US, originally UK!!
Age: 45
Posts: 7,108
Rep Power: 10Alz is on a distinguished road

Re: **Spoilers Lord Voldemorts Request **

That is kinda my point - if he was just trying to get his hands on prized Hogwarts items - I am sure he would have tried everything in his arsenal ... but all he seemed to want to know was if he could become the DADA teacher ...
You know the curse he put on the job goes to show how much he really wanted to be there and in the job ... he left right away - not making an attack on Dumbledore or anything once he realised it was never going to happen.
I think he saw Hogwarts like a home - he related to it in a way like he had never felt like in the past and saw the DADA job as a great goal and a way he could always be about ...
His warped mind was already meaning he lost the plot - and although everyone knows he would never be allowed to teach ... he still felt like he would have been able to!
__________________
'It's all my fault, all my fault'
'Please make it stop, I know I did wrong, oh, please make it stop and i'll never, never again..'
'Don't hurt them, don't hurt then, please, please, it's my fault, hurt me instead ...'
'Please, please, please, no ... not that, not that, I'll do anything ...'

Dumbledore - HBP Pg536

'Merely taking your life would not satisfy me..'
Dumbledore - OoTP "The only one he ever feared" Pg895
Alz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-08-2005, 14:17   #7
Fortescue
Totally Potterfied!
 
Fortescue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: The wall next to Dumbledore . . .
Posts: 1,518
Rep Power: 16Fortescue will become famous soon enough

Re: **Spoilers Lord Voldemorts Request **

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blaise
That is kinda my point - if he was just trying to get his hands on prized Hogwarts items - I am sure he would have tried everything in his arsenal ... but all he seemed to want to know was if he could become the DADA teacher ...
You know the curse he put on the job goes to show how much he really wanted to be there and in the job ... he left right away - not making an attack on Dumbledore or anything once he realised it was never going to happen.
I think he saw Hogwarts like a home - he related to it in a way like he had never felt like in the past and saw the DADA job as a great goal and a way he could always be about ...
His warped mind was already meaning he lost the plot - and although everyone knows he would never be allowed to teach ... he still felt like he would have been able to!
Um, excuse me! Did we read the same chapter?

Quote:
Lord Voldemort's Request - HBP, pg 440 US

"The locket maybe," said Harry, "but why take the cup as well?"

"It had belonged to another of Hogwarts's founders," said Dumbledore. "I think he still felt a great pull toward the school and that he could not resist an object so steeped in Hogwarts history."
I don't think Voldemort wanted the items as a sort of walk down memory lane. Basically, I think Voldemort wanted the items because they had a magic of their own and the point of Dumbledore showing Harry the memory was to show how deceptive Riddle/Voldemort was and what he was willing to do to get what he wanted:

Quote:
pg 444 US

"My friends," he said, after a moment's pause, "will carry on without me, I am sure."

"I am glad to hear that you consider them friends," said Dumbledore. "I was under the impression that they are more in the order of servants."

"You are mistaken," said Voldemort.

"Then if I were to go to the Hog's Head tonight, I would not find a group of them - Nott, Rosier, Mulciber, Dolohov - awaiting your return? Devoted friends indeed, to travel this far with you on a snowy night, merely to wish you luck as you attempted to secure a teaching post."

There could be no doubt that Dumbledore's detailed knowledge of those with whom he was traveling was even less welcome to Voldemort; however, he rallied almost at once.

"You are omniscient as ever, Dumbledore."

"Oh no, merely friendly with the local barmen," said Dumbledore lightly.
There are several points to go off on in this quote, but I will try to stick to the topic

Obviously, the DADA position was open at the time or why would he have applied for the job! Why would he go to a job interview with his cronies sitting down the street in a bar if he was actually serious about getting the job? Dumbledore already knew that the Death Eaters were not Voldemort's friends - they were his servants when he was still at Hogwarts and took on the name of Lord Voldemort. He simply wanted his foot in the door so he could get those remaining items he needed for his Horcruxes.
__________________
What did I care if numbers of nameless and faceless people and creatures were slaughtered in the vague future, if in the here and now you were alive, and well, and happy?
Albus Dumbledore



"I miss having you in my classes, Harry, you were never much of a Seer . . . but you were a wonderful Object . . . "
Sybil Trelawney
Fortescue is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-2005, 11:08   #8
Alz
Head Unspeakable
 
Alz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: West Coast US, originally UK!!
Age: 45
Posts: 7,108
Rep Power: 10Alz is on a distinguished road

Re: **Spoilers Lord Voldemorts Request **

How the heck do you draw such sweeping conclusions - it baffles me!
I read that three times to see how you could jump to such conclusions - still it fails me ...

Voldemort, at the time he was in that office had many opportunities to do anything he wanted - force Dumbledore's hand the whole lot ... but he didnt ...
He asked for the job - they dialogued for a bit - then it became clear from the conversation that Dumbledore wasnt going to give him the job - what did Voldemort do ... he got up and left ...
Geez I mean - if there was prizes there that would seal his horcruxes in a manner that made them stronger than anything else - would he just walk away?
__________________
'It's all my fault, all my fault'
'Please make it stop, I know I did wrong, oh, please make it stop and i'll never, never again..'
'Don't hurt them, don't hurt then, please, please, it's my fault, hurt me instead ...'
'Please, please, please, no ... not that, not that, I'll do anything ...'

Dumbledore - HBP Pg536

'Merely taking your life would not satisfy me..'
Dumbledore - OoTP "The only one he ever feared" Pg895
Alz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-2005, 12:59   #9
Fortescue
Totally Potterfied!
 
Fortescue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: The wall next to Dumbledore . . .
Posts: 1,518
Rep Power: 16Fortescue will become famous soon enough

Re: **Spoilers Lord Voldemorts Request **

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blaise
Voldemort, at the time he was in that office had many opportunities to do anything he wanted - force Dumbledore's hand the whole lot ... but he didnt ...
He asked for the job - they dialogued for a bit - then it became clear from the conversation that Dumbledore wasnt going to give him the job - what did Voldemort do ... he got up and left ...
Geez I mean - if there was prizes there that would seal his horcruxes in a manner that made them stronger than anything else - would he just walk away?
Voldemort was not going to challenge Dumbledore as he was afraid of him.

Quote:
Lord Voldemort's Request - HBP, pg 446 US

For a second, Harry was on the verge of shouting a pointless warning: He was sure that Voldemort's hand twitched toward his pocket and his wand; but then the moment had passed, Voldemort had turned away, the door was closing, and he was gone.
This was after Dumledore had finished telling Voldemort he couldn't force him to pay for his crimes as he did at the orphanage after he found the stolen items in the wardrobe. Not that the thought of a confrontation with Dumbledore hadn't crossed his mind, but he knew better in the end. He walked away because he knew he had no other choice!
__________________
What did I care if numbers of nameless and faceless people and creatures were slaughtered in the vague future, if in the here and now you were alive, and well, and happy?
Albus Dumbledore



"I miss having you in my classes, Harry, you were never much of a Seer . . . but you were a wonderful Object . . . "
Sybil Trelawney
Fortescue is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-2005, 13:30   #10
Alz
Head Unspeakable
 
Alz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: West Coast US, originally UK!!
Age: 45
Posts: 7,108
Rep Power: 10Alz is on a distinguished road

Re: **Spoilers Lord Voldemorts Request **

This is interesting actually ... did you get the feeling at that time Voldemort feared Dumbledore?
Interesting because I thought they seemed amicable and comfortable ...
This leads me to 2 thoughts ...

1. Whatever happened to make Voldemort fear Dumbledore happend later
2. Riddle had grown with this silent fear of Dumbledore based on when he was a child

I'll be honest - I really dont think that fear was present in Voldemort - he didnt seem edgy, worried or anything ...
Also the lack of anger - that was another telling point here - we all would have expected Voldemort to call the odds out to Dumbledor before leaving - he didnt - he just left .. as soon as he knew he wouldnt get the job ...
__________________
'It's all my fault, all my fault'
'Please make it stop, I know I did wrong, oh, please make it stop and i'll never, never again..'
'Don't hurt them, don't hurt then, please, please, it's my fault, hurt me instead ...'
'Please, please, please, no ... not that, not that, I'll do anything ...'

Dumbledore - HBP Pg536

'Merely taking your life would not satisfy me..'
Dumbledore - OoTP "The only one he ever feared" Pg895
Alz is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


  Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
All times are GMT -8. The time now is 07:10.
Style Designed by Epic Designz
 
 

Harry Potter & all associated names and images remain the property of J.K Rowling, Bloomsbury Publishers UK and AOL Time Warner.All other logos and trademarks in this site are property of their respective owner. The comments are property of their posters, all the rest 2005 by The Final Horcrux.
You are not permitted to hotlink/hyperlink any images from the site.
Please respect the intellectual rights of The Final Horcrux. You must contact the webmaster/administrator of The Final Horcrux if you wish to take any part of the site and contents for reproduction on another site, forum, or other web presence. Any site that plagiarises The Final Horcrux will be subject to a complaint being registered against them.
 

Right Page Border