Left Page Border
Makes the header linkable

Go Back   The Final Horcrux > Discussions on Half-Blood Prince > HBP Analysis

HBP Analysis A deeper and meaningful look at the details of HBP

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rating: Thread Rating: 4 votes, 5.00 average. Display Modes
Old 09-12-2005, 14:17   #1
Fortescue
Totally Potterfied!
 
Fortescue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: The wall next to Dumbledore . . .
Posts: 1,518
Rep Power: 16Fortescue will become famous soon enough

Why did Snape kill Dumbledore?

We have all kinds of threads about Snape and what spell he used, is he good or evil and ideas that Dumbledore sacrificed himself for some unknown to us reason etc.etc.etc.

I want to hear everyone's ideas why did Snape kill Dumbledore. Death is a very radical step to take simply to control the outcome of a certain event.

Why did Snape kill Dumbledore? Be as broad as you like with your answer please!
__________________
What did I care if numbers of nameless and faceless people and creatures were slaughtered in the vague future, if in the here and now you were alive, and well, and happy?
Albus Dumbledore



"I miss having you in my classes, Harry, you were never much of a Seer . . . but you were a wonderful Object . . . "
Sybil Trelawney
Fortescue is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-2005, 01:55   #2
SnarkologyMajor
TFH Graduate
 
SnarkologyMajor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: South Bend, IN - Lost in my pensieve
Age: 52
Posts: 418
Rep Power: 15SnarkologyMajor will become famous soon enough

Re: Why did Snape kill Dumbledore?

What a brilliant question! Seemingly innocent, yet controversial at the same time . Well this could cause an uproar, but I don't think Snape killed Dumbledore! Hang on! Let me explain my reasoning (I could be very wrong). My feeling here was that Dumbledore was begging (since when does he beg?) Snape with his very last breath and that by the time Snape used Avada Kedavra Dumbledore was already gone. To me this explains the strange circumstances of the curse itself, there was only Dumbedore's shell left, his soul had already departed. If Dumbledore trusted Snape (which we are told over and over) wouldn't he have expected Snape to try and save him? Yet he didn't give Snape the opportunity to do anything. Even with far too many events conspiring against Dumbledore that night, and even if Snape and Dumbledore had some sort of plan, I still contend that Dumbledore would not want Snape to have his murder on his hands.This flies in the face of everything he stood for! Ultimately, they were both protecting Harry, and I certainly think Snape was aware that Harry was lying a few feet away(Legilimency/Occlumency). Of course this idea is going to irritate Snape haters, and obviously I have concluded that he is one of the good guys(I'll have to look for that thread to explain) and also those who believe Dumbledore faked his own death. I don't believe that Dumbledore needs to be alive in order for Harry to finish what he has to do.
SnarkologyMajor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-2005, 11:33   #3
dribrats
I'm a N00b
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada
Age: 68
Posts: 6
Rep Power: 0dribrats is on a distinguished road

Re: Why did Snape kill Dumbledore?

SnarkologyMajor,
Again I totally agree with you, I have been reading your ideas and theories!
You and I seem to be on the same length.

Your Quote - Ultimately, they were both protecting Harry, and I certainly think Snape was aware that Harry was lying a few feet away(Legilimency/Occlumency). Unquote.

First of all, yes throughout the whole series, there are hints (clues) that HP was in fact aware of the fact the Snape 'seemed' to be reading his mind, 'knew' what he was thinking, etc... and could actually 'know' or 'see' beyond the invisilbilty cloak (as could moody). Yes! Snape knew HP was there and thru Legilemency, he and DD communicated - Severus, your vow! - you know what you must and have to do!

Second of all, I believe there is a connection with the fact that they were both protecting Harry, because of a pact (Vow) that they had committed to years ago. When Snape had realized that he had participated in the death of Lily Potter by giving LV the first part of the prophecy, he went to DD professing his regret and 'vowed' to DD to forever be on the right side. DD, wanting to believe Snape, but leery of his intentions, required an Unbreakable Vow (?). Snape agreed...to always be a member of the Order and to be Harry's protector, no matter his personal feelings (hatred of James). Over and over, everyone has questioned the fact that DD 'trusted' Snape implicitly...
There are numerous instances where one could quote Snape's alligiance to the order and his 'watching out' for HP - protecting him not only for the purpose of fullfilling a vow to DD and ridding the magical world of the evil LV, but also for trying to right a wrong - keeping HP alive - the wish of someone that Snape once loved - Lily Potter.
dribrats is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-2005, 19:06   #4
Sirius Potter Fan
Night Patroll
 
Sirius Potter Fan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Tulsa, OK USA
Age: 53
Posts: 1,690
Rep Power: 16Sirius Potter Fan is on a distinguished road

Re: Why did Snape kill Dumbledore?

Well, we all seem to be of one mind. . .but here's another log to add to the roaring fire.

Snape indeed was superior when it came to potions. Could the whole cave incident have been a setup. Say, Snape knew just when Draco would be instigating his little plan, (and why should'nt an acomplished legilimens like him know that) say that it was planned all along, to play out just as it had. the potion in the basin was put there by Snape with the fake locket (that DD had already found and realized was a fake since he found the real one at Sirius' house when the order had to vacate) this potion was designed to "imitate" death. as Snape arrived DD was fully under the influence, all Snape had to do was say AK while thinking another spell that he fired at DD. Simple right!

Only. . . much as I like that scenario. . . even if all above were really true, wouldn't the fall from the astronomy tower have killed him?

Now, honestly, I can't say if DD may or may not have been dead already when the AK was fired by Snape. I think I hope, more than know, that somehow Snape wasn't forced to actualy Kill DD, but my gut just seems to say Snape did. I do believe though that if he indeed did. it was on DD's orders, not Voldemort's. I believe that Snape is true to the Order. I agree that Snape's loyalty was based on Lily, I think they had some type of relationship. Can't help puting together the fact that Sluggy kept telling Harry how he was like his mother in potions, when it was Snapes book that he used. . .and Snape and Lily were in school together. . .

sorry, wandered off topic a bit So why did he do it? Because DD told him to.
__________________
Where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.
His memory will live on . . .




There is no place I know to compare with pure imagination; living there you'll be free, if you truly wish to be.
_Willy Wonka

Murphy's Law: "Whatever can go wrong, will."

Mad-eye Moody's Law: "Murphy was an optimist!"
Sirius Potter Fan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2005, 02:18   #5
Fortescue
Totally Potterfied!
 
Fortescue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: The wall next to Dumbledore . . .
Posts: 1,518
Rep Power: 16Fortescue will become famous soon enough

Re: Why did Snape kill Dumbledore?

Whenever I think about what happened on top of the tower and what Snape said to Harry afterward, I tend to think that Dumbledore did sacrifice himself for some reason that I can't quite grasp, in order to help Harry. That is until I remember what JKR said that we shouldn't think that Snape is too nice a guy - which throws all of my opinions on the ending right off the tower, so to speak!

It seemed that what happened could have been prearranged between the two of them, but how would Dumbledore know that the potion in the stand would do to him what it did, and how would he have gotten that information to Snape if he didn't know before he went to the cave? I think about Snape and potions and wonder if Snape didn't make that potion for Voldemort when he was still loyal to him and Snape was the one who told Dumbledore of its properties and what would happen when he drank it. Dumbledore knew he had to drink it, he couldn't pour it on the ground in order to empty the basin and he knew the potion would kill him simply by what he said to Harry, that he, Dumbledore, wasn't as important as Harry. He had to know that the only way you could get to the bottom of the basin was to drink the potion and that who ever did drink it would eventually die.

When Dumbledore told Harry what happened to his hand, Dumbledore said it was a small price to pay for one-seventh of Voldemort's soul, but if all that I said above is true and Dumbledore knew he would die by drinking the potion, then he died for nothing, and it makes me wonder if Snape didn't possibly know that what was at the bottom of the basin wasn't what Dumbledore was looking for, and it goes back to JKR's words about Snape's character.

All that said, if thoughts passed between Snape and Dumbledore before the curse, I'd say Dumbledore, who couldn't even stand up, was begging Snape to take him out. He was obviously suffering and I would think that if Snape was on Dumbledore's side and still spying on Voldemort, it might have been prearranged that Snape should kill Dumbledore if the need should arise, and if Snape was on Dumbledore's side, I'm sure he knew where Dumbledore and Harry had gone and what condition Dumbledore would be in when he returned.

As for Snape attacking Flitwick; I think he wanted him out of the way so he wouldn't be harmed. Maybe, if he'd had the chance he would have stunned everyone he could in order to keep them safe, but that makes me wonder if he stunned Flitwick to protect him, why did he let Hermione and Luna walk away. It would seem that he would have wanted to protect them too, so that thought doesn't really fly either.

As for SPF's comment that Dumbledore wouldn't ask Snape to kill, I don't think Snape being at Hogwarts was like him being in rehab or anything. He was there to make amends for something we still don't know about - and if he did kill Dumbledore as he requested, I think he felt guilty about it afterwards just by what he said to Harry on the lawn when Harry called him a coward. JKR tried to show Snape's pain at what he'd done, possibly, his firing of the fatal curse was the hardest thing he had ever done, (we don't know that Snape ever personally killed anyone while in Voldemort's service, maybe Dumbledore was his first?) - this taken along with his words to Harry: "DON'T CALL ME A COWARD!" Maybe it was the bravest thing he ever had to do and his perpetual anger toward Harry because of James, could not override his obligation to Dumbledore. Maybe there was enough good in Snape that he could get just far enough past his old feelings of hate toward James that he was actually helping Harry with his words - Keep your mouth shut and mind closed!

As you can tell, I'm still on the fence on this - I have no set in stone view on this and find there is not enough evidence either way for me to make up my mind. JKR left too many dead ends and unanswered questions, as she always does. I could lean more toward Snape killing Dumbledore out of necessity and not because he's an evil traitor, but I can't declare him that good yet. I'm going to read HBP again and see if I can make up my mind!
__________________
What did I care if numbers of nameless and faceless people and creatures were slaughtered in the vague future, if in the here and now you were alive, and well, and happy?
Albus Dumbledore



"I miss having you in my classes, Harry, you were never much of a Seer . . . but you were a wonderful Object . . . "
Sybil Trelawney
Fortescue is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2005, 11:54   #6
Sirius Potter Fan
Night Patroll
 
Sirius Potter Fan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Tulsa, OK USA
Age: 53
Posts: 1,690
Rep Power: 16Sirius Potter Fan is on a distinguished road

Re: Why did Snape kill Dumbledore?

Quote:
Originally Posted by forte
I'm going to read HBP again and see if I can make up my mind!
Good luck! I've been through it 3.5 times, and every time i see something in a different light, and it still goes back and forth. I think of the unbreakable vow, that Shape HAD to take to save face in the DE camp, and know that if Snaper were on the order's side, that he certainly would have told DD, not only about the vow but of Draco's assignment. and we do know that DD knew of that. One time I will look at the "look of revultion" on Snape's face and think he hated DD, the the next time it seems that it was because he hated what he had to do. One thing that I think though, is if Snape were on the DE side, wouldn't he have first encouraged Draco to finish what he had started, and not so quickly done the deed himself. Or. . . was it that he had indeed discussed it with DD and had been asked by DD to do it himself to 1. keep his position close to Voldemort, and 2. Save Draco from becoming a murderer. There of course could have been many other contingency plans as well. I like the idea that Snape made the potion, have thought that likely all along. We are reminded again how good Snape is at potions, not just that he taught it, but he was often asked to make potions for others, and his writings in his book was what the HBP got it's title from!

It is still so hard not to ride the fence on this though. I am leaning to the good side, but haven't found the push I need to get my leg all the way over yet. some of it is because of another quote I heard on an interview once, where JKR was wondering why so many were "attracted" to Snape. since "He's not a very nice person". . . but then again we have Hagrid saying that the world isn't divided into just nice people and Death Eaters. There are "good guys" that aren't all that nice. Just look at Mundungus!
__________________
Where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.
His memory will live on . . .




There is no place I know to compare with pure imagination; living there you'll be free, if you truly wish to be.
_Willy Wonka

Murphy's Law: "Whatever can go wrong, will."

Mad-eye Moody's Law: "Murphy was an optimist!"
Sirius Potter Fan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2005, 17:37   #7
Fortescue
Totally Potterfied!
 
Fortescue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: The wall next to Dumbledore . . .
Posts: 1,518
Rep Power: 16Fortescue will become famous soon enough

Re: Why did Snape kill Dumbledore?

If we break down the possibilities, maybe it will be a bit easier to sort this out, (for me anyway )

1. Snape killed Dumbledore simply to keep his vow to Narcissa because Draco obviously wasn't able to kill Dumbledore.

2. Snape killed Dumbledore because he thought he was a dottering old fool, (as I noticed a few times throughout the books that he hinted in that direction.)

3. Dumbledore actually planned his death, time and place in order to set Harry on the right path - Snape killed him unwillingly, but did it out of loyalty to Dumbledore, and to keep Harry going in the right direction.

4. Snape is simply an evil being and has been playing Dumbledore for a fool all these years. Maybe Snape thought that if he could get in close to Dumbledore, he could learn the rest of the prophecy and relay that much desired information to his master. By killing Dumbledore he set himself in a fine place with Voldemort and will now be his most trusted beyond anyone else.
__________________
What did I care if numbers of nameless and faceless people and creatures were slaughtered in the vague future, if in the here and now you were alive, and well, and happy?
Albus Dumbledore



"I miss having you in my classes, Harry, you were never much of a Seer . . . but you were a wonderful Object . . . "
Sybil Trelawney
Fortescue is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-12-2005, 04:57   #8
SnarkologyMajor
TFH Graduate
 
SnarkologyMajor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: South Bend, IN - Lost in my pensieve
Age: 52
Posts: 418
Rep Power: 15SnarkologyMajor will become famous soon enough

Re: Why did Snape kill Dumbledore?

It is extremely difficult to separate this thread from the Evil/Good Snape thread since one depends on the other. Given the evidence of Dumbledore's memory of Trelawney's prophecy in the pensieve, I can only see 2 options-1 that Snape heard the whole thing or 2-that Snape heard none of the prophecy. Either way-he only told Voldemort the first part, which would mean his goal is to destroy Voldemort. Now I'm not completely ruling out that his ultimate goal is to replace Voldemort himself, but that sure seems to over-complicate an already over-complicated ending. If this were true though, then Fortescue's #2 or #4 could be possible-he's used Dumbledore for everything that he needed and now he's finished with him. Even though I'm keeping this option open-my gut feeling is that Snape is ultimately going to sacrifice himself to the cause. As for #1- wouldn't he have prodded Draco to do the deed as per the Unbreakable Vow like SiriusPotterFan suggested? Since the Vow w/Narcissa was ultimately to protect Draco, then Snape really needed to push Draco, since Voldemort was going to kill him if he failed?(Hope that made sense ) # 3-Is very probable, but I think this is almost impossible to figure out the details of without knowing the exact reason Dumbledore trusted Snape to his last breath. My best guess is that the two of them have had a last resort contingency plan in place for a long time (not just Book 6) to do whatever it took to protect Harry until he could destroy Voldemort. In this guess we have to look at everything that conspired against them that night.
1. Dumbledore drank a potion that in all likelyhood would kill him w/o antidote and it seems like a couple of hours had passed-time was running out.
2. Harry was lying frozen a few feet away with Deatheaters likely to step on him and discover him any minute.
3. Snape had the Unbreakable Vow with Narcissa, if he didn't follow through, his cover would be blown and he would be killed by Voldemort.
4. The school was overrun with Deatheaters and Snape certainly got them out of there in a hurry!
When you read that final scene with Snape/Harry from this perspective Snape's pain comes through loud and clear. Somehow though he managed to leave Harry with a few more lessons that he is clearly going to have to learn.
When it comes to the cave scene, I'm so confused-to put it mildly! There are too many things about this chapter that don't add up, and I'm still trying to sort it out.
I had thought it might have been a setup myself although via the clue that Aberforth has the locket. My daughter pointed out that Dumbledore says he isn't sure which horcrux it is on page 547. All I can think is that if this was a setup-then it was all done in order to lead Harry to Regulus. Of course one has to wonder why the heck they would have to go to all that trouble. That's why I've been trying to tackle the Regulus/Sirius puzzle-I feel that is the missing link.
Oh what a tangled tale she weaves!!
SnarkologyMajor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-12-2005, 11:55   #9
Alz
Head Unspeakable
 
Alz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: West Coast US, originally UK!!
Age: 45
Posts: 7,108
Rep Power: 10Alz is on a distinguished road

Re: Why did Snape kill Dumbledore?

Snape killed Dumbledore because Dumbledore asked him to - and as much as he would have struggled with it - he respected Dumbledore and all he did for him too much to not give the man his final wish.
Sure - it was extreme and he commited an act that is unforgivable - but given the situation he was presented with - he knew he had to ...
If he didnt kill Dumbledore then one of the others would have done it - and maybe not have done it quickly - making Dumbledore suffer ...
Snape knew what he had to do - Dumbledore even pushed him when Snape was finally confronted with the deed and had a moment's hesitation - but he did what Dumbledore had asked him to do ...
I have no doubts in my mind that all he did that night was what Dumbledore had told him he must do for the greater good.
__________________
'It's all my fault, all my fault'
'Please make it stop, I know I did wrong, oh, please make it stop and i'll never, never again..'
'Don't hurt them, don't hurt then, please, please, it's my fault, hurt me instead ...'
'Please, please, please, no ... not that, not that, I'll do anything ...'

Dumbledore - HBP Pg536

'Merely taking your life would not satisfy me..'
Dumbledore - OoTP "The only one he ever feared" Pg895
Alz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-12-2005, 14:45   #10
Fortescue
Totally Potterfied!
 
Fortescue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: The wall next to Dumbledore . . .
Posts: 1,518
Rep Power: 16Fortescue will become famous soon enough

Re: Why did Snape kill Dumbledore?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SnarkologyMajor
All I can think is that if this was a setup-then it was all done in order to lead Harry to Regulus. Of course one has to wonder why the heck they would have to go to all that trouble. That's why I've been trying to tackle the Regulus/Sirius puzzle-I feel that is the missing link.
Oh what a tangled tale she weaves!!

I wonder if JKR intended the clue of R.A.B to be easy for us, easy for Harry, (he does tend to be a bit slow on the uptake at times,) or to be a complete trick for everyone?

Something rang in my mind as I read down through everyone's responses again. When Flitwick went to get Snape to tell him the Death Eaters were in the castle, Snape stunned Flitwick, but did not stun Hermione and Luna. But why?

I think he needed them to be witness to what was happening, to tell the rest of the world that Snape was evil and he stunned Flitwick to keep him out of the way, after all, Flitwick is the school expert on Charms. If that was the case and he was setting things in motion to point toward his guilt when he wasn't guilty of anything more then following Dumbledore's orders and setting things up the way Dumbledore wanted. The talk in the hospital wing after Harry told Lupin, the Weasley's and Professor McGonagall that Dumbledore was dead - Lupin and McGonagall both stated that Dumbledore trusted Snape, but you could tell, personally, they both had reservations about his character and purpose at Hogwarts.

I'm trying to sort this out without defending Snape too much, but things keep pointing back to him playing out a game that Dumbledore set in motion. Maybe in the end we will find out that Snape never did really work exclusively for Voldemort, but was a spy for Dumbledore all along, then that definitely would have made his killing of Dumbledore the hardest thing he'd ever done.


Quote:
Originally Posted by SnarkologyMajor
Given the evidence of Dumbledore's memory of Trelawney's prophecy in the pensieve, I can only see 2 options-1 that Snape heard the whole thing or 2-that Snape heard none of the prophecy.
You know that's an interesting thought. What if in all reality, Snape heard nothing of the prophecy, but was instructed by Dumbledore to tell Voldemort the first part of it, all but the actual important information so Voldemort would show his hand? Dumbledore could have set it all up, Aberforth was his brother and would attest to anything Dumbledore asked him to-Trelawney is an idiot - Dumbledore could have planted her memory of Snape hearing part of the prophecy at a later time. (Remember the version of the prophecy that Dumbledore showed Harry did not stop half way through and show Snape spying at the door!) Maybe that's why he wanted to keep her at Hogwarts where he could keep an eye on her not only so Voldemort didn't get a hold of her and get the prophecy anyway, but so he wouldn't see the imperfect memory that Dumbledore planted showing Snape getting caught eavesdropping. Dumbledore is a smart man, yet Harry's insinuations about Snape never ruffled him. I think there might be more to their relationship then we've been led to believe, and Snape's words to Harry "Don't call me a coward," was Snape's true regret for what he had to do to Dumbledore.
__________________
What did I care if numbers of nameless and faceless people and creatures were slaughtered in the vague future, if in the here and now you were alive, and well, and happy?
Albus Dumbledore



"I miss having you in my classes, Harry, you were never much of a Seer . . . but you were a wonderful Object . . . "
Sybil Trelawney

Last edited by Fortescue; 12-12-2005 at 14:49..
Fortescue is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 2 (0 members and 2 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


  Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
All times are GMT -8. The time now is 10:59.
Style Designed by Epic Designz
 
 

Harry Potter & all associated names and images remain the property of J.K Rowling, Bloomsbury Publishers UK and AOL Time Warner.All other logos and trademarks in this site are property of their respective owner. The comments are property of their posters, all the rest 2005 by The Final Horcrux.
You are not permitted to hotlink/hyperlink any images from the site.
Please respect the intellectual rights of The Final Horcrux. You must contact the webmaster/administrator of The Final Horcrux if you wish to take any part of the site and contents for reproduction on another site, forum, or other web presence. Any site that plagiarises The Final Horcrux will be subject to a complaint being registered against them.
 

Right Page Border