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HBP Speculation Speculation about book 7 given the new info from HBP

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Old 04-08-2006, 09:42   #1
cagedcactus
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What were Snape and Dumbledore arguing about?

Hagrid overheard Snape and Dumbledore arguing about something.
what was purpose behind that?
Hagrid says that DD asked Snape to make investigation in his house. And then Snape complained of being overworked and also about DD taking things for granted.
Maybe Snape was tired of working as double agent and decided to take one side.
From his actions it seems that he chose to side with Dark lord.
But from the actions of DD it seems that it was all plotted.
what do you guys think?
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Old 05-08-2006, 11:11   #2
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Re: What were Snape and Dumbledore arguing about?

I'm sure this is under discussion elsewhere but I cant find it - if I come across it I will merge it in ...

I think the argument was about what Dumbledore was asking Snape to do.
I think Snape told Dumbledore straight away after he did the Unbreakable vow with Narcissa - basically condeming himself or Dumbledore.
I think they strategically worked out what needed to happen and as Draco became wilder in his efforts to kill Dumbledore - Dumbledore was reminding Snape of the end game ..
Snape really did like and respect Dumbledore - prolly one of the only people ever to show Snape trust and have faith in him - and his part was to be the eventual killer ...
I think Snape saw the end coming and started to freak - he prolly felt sure Dumbledore would find a way around it all but Dumbledore knew when it was time to take a bow ...
I think Snape knew at this point it wasnt all going to end happy ever after and thus we get a repetition of the conversation from Hagrid - of a conversation that was suppose to be well away from any ears!
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'It's all my fault, all my fault'
'Please make it stop, I know I did wrong, oh, please make it stop and i'll never, never again..'
'Don't hurt them, don't hurt then, please, please, it's my fault, hurt me instead ...'
'Please, please, please, no ... not that, not that, I'll do anything ...'

Dumbledore - HBP Pg536

'Merely taking your life would not satisfy me..'
Dumbledore - OoTP "The only one he ever feared" Pg895
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Old 07-08-2006, 04:22   #3
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Re: What were Snape and Dumbledore arguing about?

I did try to find something on this if already discussed. If you do, please merge me in, and my apologies.
Thanks for your input too. I am glad there are so many people here who think different. I also like your idea about Snape acting best according to the situations.
What amazes me is after sacrificing so much for so many years, acting as a spy, why would he just make a decision like that?
Or maybe DD was wrong about his character. Maybe Snape has different ideas too. Heck, one of our ideas are going to be reality, or maybe JKR has something under her sleeves that we cant make out.
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"In thy Face, I see the map of honor, truth and loyalty."
-Helga Hufflepuff the founder of House Hufflepuff

"Let me tell you the secret that had led me to my goal. My strength lies, solely in my tenacity."
-Salazar Slytherin the founder of house Slytherin

"Courage and perseverance have a magical talisman, before which all difficulties disappear and obstacles vanish into air."
-Godric Gryffindor the founder of house Gryffindor

"We have a hunger of the mind which asks for knowledge all around us. And the more we gain, the more is our desire."
-Rowena Ravenclaw the founder of house Ravenclaw
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Old 12-08-2006, 10:17   #4
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Re: What were Snape and Dumbledore arguing about?

I think Snape knew the Dark Lords trust in him was starting to flag - making him look after Wormtail seems to indicate that Voldemort isn't as naive as we all think given Snape's roll as a double, double agent - seems the only one that could see through it was Bellatrix but her standing with the Dark Lord was somewhat diminished when she was part of the debacle that was foiled at the MoM in OoTP and they lost the Dark Lord his prophecy.
You have to look at the situation they were in at that time - Snape has made an unbreakable vow with Narcissa says he will not only look after Malfoy and keep him safe but even went as far as to say he would step in and do the job if Draco was unable ... he all but sealed his or Dumbledore's life.
He would have told Dumbledore about this straight after he did it - that is why Dumbledore was busy all year - he knew that in order for him to live, Draco and Snape would die - I think he played the odd's, he was old and starting to become less imposing - he has a spy in the camp that was probably his most powerful asset in this war - and if he was selfish enough to live, he would loose 2 people.
Now, trying to get Snape to accept and understand all of this was never going to be easy - Snape seemed to be very much someone who does nothing only for himself APART from Dumbledore. He follows Dumbledore's orders and respects him a great deal - so when you have sealed his death warrant and then suddenly been declared as the secondary, spare executioner if the time came ... I think you can understand his reticence ...
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'Please make it stop, I know I did wrong, oh, please make it stop and i'll never, never again..'
'Don't hurt them, don't hurt then, please, please, it's my fault, hurt me instead ...'
'Please, please, please, no ... not that, not that, I'll do anything ...'

Dumbledore - HBP Pg536

'Merely taking your life would not satisfy me..'
Dumbledore - OoTP "The only one he ever feared" Pg895
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Old 14-08-2006, 00:30   #5
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Re: What were Snape and Dumbledore arguing about?

I think it is very important to remember here that DD trusted Snape, unquestionably, for reasons not yet known, and this most likely played a huge part in the outcome of HBP.
Snape knows that DD trusts him, but perhaps still did not feel that DD should give his life so that he (Snape) may live. I don't think it ever (okay, it might have a little) crossed Snape's mind to let Malfoy die when he didn't succeed.
I do still wonder about why Snape, the avid follower of the Dark Lord, let Narcissa talk him in to helping her. I mean, it was a nice gesture in an odd way, but he must have felt it would help he and DD or Voldemort (depending on his allegiance) somehow.
The arguement may have come at a time when Snape no longer felt his decision was the right one, and I agree that he started to freak when Dumbledore sealed his own fate.
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Old 14-08-2006, 11:59   #6
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Re: What were Snape and Dumbledore arguing about?

See that is the slight complication in this - Snape's motivation.
Perhaps he felt it was his time to go - so he made the unbreakable vow knowing that he would never be able to fulfil it - and would pay with his life.
Otherwise, he made the vow knowing he would seal Dumbledore's fate - and that just seems to make you question his motivations and who's side he is on.
Thirdly - and most likely - he prolly felt if anyone could bring about a situation that kept Draco, him and Dumbledore alive - it would be Dumbledore.
Perhaps this is the moment Dumbledore tells him that the ultimate end to this would be with his own life and Snape then wants out - knowing he bought about this fate?
__________________
'It's all my fault, all my fault'
'Please make it stop, I know I did wrong, oh, please make it stop and i'll never, never again..'
'Don't hurt them, don't hurt then, please, please, it's my fault, hurt me instead ...'
'Please, please, please, no ... not that, not that, I'll do anything ...'

Dumbledore - HBP Pg536

'Merely taking your life would not satisfy me..'
Dumbledore - OoTP "The only one he ever feared" Pg895
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Old 15-08-2006, 04:22   #7
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Re: What were Snape and Dumbledore arguing about?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alz
See that is the slight complication in this - Snape's motivation.
Perhaps he felt it was his time to go - so he made the unbreakable vow knowing that he would never be able to fulfil it - and would pay with his life.
Otherwise, he made the vow knowing he would seal Dumbledore's fate - and that just seems to make you question his motivations and who's side he is on.
Thirdly - and most likely - he prolly felt if anyone could bring about a situation that kept Draco, him and Dumbledore alive - it would be Dumbledore.
Perhaps this is the moment Dumbledore tells him that the ultimate end to this would be with his own life and Snape then wants out - knowing he bought about this fate?
Merlin's beard. I think you are right.
If that is true, then Harry should kill Snape regardless on which side he is.
The git not only got Lily and James killed by mouthing the prophecy to dark lord, now he got Dumbledore killed by taking that vow.
I just hope that JKR has something really different in her mind.
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"In thy Face, I see the map of honor, truth and loyalty."
-Helga Hufflepuff the founder of House Hufflepuff

"Let me tell you the secret that had led me to my goal. My strength lies, solely in my tenacity."
-Salazar Slytherin the founder of house Slytherin

"Courage and perseverance have a magical talisman, before which all difficulties disappear and obstacles vanish into air."
-Godric Gryffindor the founder of house Gryffindor

"We have a hunger of the mind which asks for knowledge all around us. And the more we gain, the more is our desire."
-Rowena Ravenclaw the founder of house Ravenclaw
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Old 15-08-2006, 11:12   #8
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Re: What were Snape and Dumbledore arguing about?

I think Snap was scared. He did not like the idea of the posibility of losing his life if he had to brake the vow. I don't think it was a matter of loalty. Snap does seam to be jerk in all acounts, but I think deep down it isn't hatetred that angers snap it is jellousy. I think he loved Lilly and because James got her instead he takes it out on Harry. If he realy wanted to go to the other side he had his chance. He could have captured or killed Harry several times by Voldemort. That is why I think the argument was out of fear not disloyalty.
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Old 16-08-2006, 11:20   #9
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Re: What were Snape and Dumbledore arguing about?

Quote:
Originally Posted by littlehobit24
I think Snap was scared. He did not like the idea of the posibility of losing his life if he had to brake the vow. I don't think it was a matter of loalty. Snap does seam to be jerk in all acounts, but I think deep down it isn't hatetred that angers snap it is jellousy. I think he loved Lilly and because James got her instead he takes it out on Harry. If he realy wanted to go to the other side he had his chance. He could have captured or killed Harry several times by Voldemort. That is why I think the argument was out of fear not disloyalty.
hmmm..
I think thats a good point too.
The whole confusion here is there are just so many clues floating around that point in any directions.
I just read the book again and everytime I come out with a different feeling.
that arguement between Snape and DD had to be about Snape not being able to control Draco. DD was frustrated by that.
I think only way DD could have saved that vow without sacrificing anything, is by knowing what Draco was upto.
But then why no one takes Harry seriously when he is screaming all year long that Draco is upto something in ROR. Not even Dumbledore.
__________________
"In thy Face, I see the map of honor, truth and loyalty."
-Helga Hufflepuff the founder of House Hufflepuff

"Let me tell you the secret that had led me to my goal. My strength lies, solely in my tenacity."
-Salazar Slytherin the founder of house Slytherin

"Courage and perseverance have a magical talisman, before which all difficulties disappear and obstacles vanish into air."
-Godric Gryffindor the founder of house Gryffindor

"We have a hunger of the mind which asks for knowledge all around us. And the more we gain, the more is our desire."
-Rowena Ravenclaw the founder of house Ravenclaw
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Old 16-08-2006, 11:36   #10
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Re: What were Snape and Dumbledore arguing about?

..and that is the major clue as to why Dumbledore was fully aware what was coming - and he met it when it did!
Dumbledore didn't want to acknowledge to Harry he was aware - because it would have sent Harry on all types of quests and the real reasons would have come out ... he wanted to make it look like Harry was being paranoid and control the situation between himself and Snape - the mere reason it all started!
Snape was almost a victim of circumstance - he was landed in a spot where his true loyalties were in question - he decided to follow the big plan and play along as the faithful spy for Voldemort but in doing so, he landed Dumbledore right in the crap!
I'm not sure if it matters if he did it by intention or circumstance, the ends were all the same - and to Harry Snape's motivations don't matter - he just wants Snape's head ... Snape's motivations will remain closed and hidden till that moment - and then it will be if he is alive to tell Harry - or dying as he confesses the whole story ...
__________________
'It's all my fault, all my fault'
'Please make it stop, I know I did wrong, oh, please make it stop and i'll never, never again..'
'Don't hurt them, don't hurt then, please, please, it's my fault, hurt me instead ...'
'Please, please, please, no ... not that, not that, I'll do anything ...'

Dumbledore - HBP Pg536

'Merely taking your life would not satisfy me..'
Dumbledore - OoTP "The only one he ever feared" Pg895
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