snape vs judas

happy_hannah · 01-06-2007, 23:40

was just perusing j.k website and saw she mentioned judas escariot was though to have red hair (like the weasleys), not knowing much about judas i wikipedia'd him and got this discussion

Why did Jesus allow Judas to betray him?

* Did Jesus fail to foresee the betrayal?
* Was Jesus unable to prevent the betrayal?
* Did Jesus willingly allow the betrayal to go ahead?
* Did Jesus actively try to cause the betrayal to happen?

can anyone else spot the correlations? i think these are guidelines we can follow for the snape betraying dumbledore debate

Sirius Potter Fan · 02-06-2007, 17:20

Good Catch HH!

I have mentioned several times the many Biblical parallels in HP. This is one that I hadn't put together, but mainly because I have never thought (or wanted to think) of Snape being truly on the dark side. If Snape is truly on the Dark side this could have significance, and even if he is on the good side . . .

Had Judas not betrayed Jesus, he would not have been put to death, and without that there would not be Salvation through his sacrifice. If the parallel is to be true the sacrifice of Dumbledore will have to have a greater purpose. Something for whitch we will have to wait and see. Just as with Snape, there are questions as to how, why, etc. with Judas as you listed above. There is an answer to three of the questions pertaining to Judas,"Did Jesus forsee the betrayal," no "Did Jesus willingly allow the betrayal to go ahead?" "Was Jesus unable to prevent the betrayal?" the answer: Jesus stated at the last supper that He would be betrayed, and that the one who would betray him would dip his bread in the cup at the same time He did . . . and it was Judas. Jesus made no effort to prevent the betrayal, and went along willingly when it happened, He knew what must happen to fulfill God's plan, so He would not try to prevent it.
"Did Jesus actively try to cause the betrayal to happen?" is the only question not definitively answered in scripture. There has ben speculation witht he recent surfacing of the "gospel" of Judas, which states that Judas was acting on Jesus' orders Which I consider a possibility.

This could all indeed tie into Snape and Dumbledore.

Dr Winterbourne · 03-06-2007, 01:48

I've been teaching my class The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe this month, and have thus been thinking a bit about Jesus' sacrifice. Aslan alllowed himself to be sacrificed to save Edmund, Jesus allowed himself to be sacrificed to save those who believe in Him, I think possibly Dumbledore alowed himself to be sacrificed to save.... Dunno. Draco? Pretty much everything DD does is to help Harry - but how does this sarifice further his plans to help Harry defeat the Dark Lord?

The Snape stuff fits in very well with the Judas Gospel - whether they are truly scripture is debatable, but the idea of being asked by your master to betray you for a greater good fits in nicely with my idea of what Snape did. I still just can't quite see why... Draco, I think. To save Draco. But how does that tie in with Harry's mission? Maybe DD wants to protect all his students, teach all his students.

gbogbo · 03-06-2007, 06:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr Winterbourne

Pretty much everything DD does is to help Harry - but how does this sarifice further his plans to help Harry defeat the Dark Lord?

... But how does that tie in with Harry's mission?

We know that Harry loathes Snape, and vice versa. It also seems clear that Dumbledore is fully aware of the dynamic. I have been wondering whether or not it is NECESSARY for Harry to "hate" if he is to defeat Voldemort. The books focus on the saving grace of love, so this seems counterintuitive, especially since Voldemort seems capable only of hatred due to his inability to love. So why would Harry need hatred? Is it because he needs to get it "out"? Is it because we can only have such strong negative feelings for those whom we love? Dunno...but it may be that Dumbledore has fostered this feeling in Harry through his sacrifice at Snape's hands.

Sirius Potter Fan · 03-06-2007, 09:39

The one thing in this comparrison that I really don't like, is that without the Judas gospel, Judas is forever known as the bad guy. Just as Snape is likely to be known as the traitor unless something significant happens to show his motives, and loyalty. That would just kill me if JKR let it stand unresolved.

Dr Winterbourne · 04-06-2007, 01:53

Arh, Snape'd love it - being regarded as a pariah. He'd get to feel all self-righteous, and misunderstood by all those people far more ignorant than himself.

With regards to Judas' reputation: I was in a bar the other night and heard Sympathy for the Devil. Someone had to make sure Pilot washed his hands and sealed His fate - just as Judas had a role to play in Christ's sacrifice. His motives may have been the best, but Snape still killed Dumbledore.

Seeker615 · 04-06-2007, 08:51

Maybe Dumbledore needed to die to flush out Voldemort. Voldy does tread carefully where Dumbledore is concerned. Having him out of the way leaves a better path for Voldy.

By sacrificing himself he put Snape in deeper with the Death Eaters and hopefully flushed out Voldemort so Harry can defeat him.

Sirius Potter Fan · 04-06-2007, 09:32

I had said that Dumbledore would have to die before HBP came out (if they're still around you can check!) Harry had to be forced to "go it alone" As long as DD was around Harry would rely too much on him. Now Harry realy has to grow up and . . . "get-r-done". I also agree that with Dumbledore's absence, Voldemort will be more bold in his actions, most likely to his defeat. Voldemort's biggest fault is his tendancy to disregard things of importance.

***Alz*** · 24-06-2007, 18:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sirius Potter Fan

Good Catch HH!

Had Judas not betrayed Jesus, he would not have been put to death, and without that there would not be Salvation through his sacrifice.

As many of you will know - I am not much of a bible person but when I read that something just struck me ...
Snape probably feels like he needs to redeem - he had a large part in the downfall of the Potters - now mix that with having to kill Dumbledore ... I think this would be consistent based on the fact as it stands - Harry will probably kill Snape on sight ... and thus he gets his redemption and path to the other side.
I think Dumbledore knew Snape had an almost death wish - I mean anyone that is a double double agent against Voldemort must has a very low fear of death and let's face it, what does Snape have to live for?
I think it is possible he wanted an out - I think the ghosts of the past haunt Snape daily and that is why he loathes Harry so much, he reminds Snape on a daily basis what he was like when he was younger.

Sirius Potter Fan · 25-06-2007, 14:41

You may have something with the Death wish there Alz . . . I mean . . . no problem taking the unbreakable vow there right? However, if redemption indeed lies in Snape's path, I personaly would like him to see it in life rather than after. And I think (hope) he will. I can see someone in Snapes position living in agony over what happened, if it is indeed as we have suspected, and as Dumbledore believes. Snape is such a wonderful enigma!!! and . . . Oh! the torment of us possibly never truly knowing the truth of Snape's aligence!