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Discussions on Book 7 "... Scar." THE END

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Old 01-07-2007, 08:25   #1
The Frozen North
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Question Can Harry Win?

Ok, at some point it had to happen, the unthinkable has to be mentioned, the totally unacceptable considered. The question I refer to, of course, is can Harry actually defeat Voldermort. All our desires say that Harry MUST defeat Voldermort. Any other result would be an insult to our sensibilities, to think that JKR would string us along through 7 books only for Harry to experience defeat at the hands of his arch enemy Lord Voldermort. But this is all purely emotional, we want Harry to win as he is our hero, we expect Harry to win as surely no author would be so cruel, we need Harry to win to reassure ourselves that good will always be victorious over evil.

Quite simply, our hearts tell us that Harry must win, to the extent that some of us are even willing to contemplate Harry sacrificing himself to achieve his final victory but do the facts back this up?

Voldermort is more powerful than Harry, Voldermort is more experienced than Harry, Voldermort is more ruthless than Harry, Voldermort has more ruthless followers than Harry, Voldermort has more knowledge than Harry, Voldermort has fewer weaknesses than Harry (his main weakness is his fear of death but he can't be pressured in any other way, quite simply, he doesn't care), Voldermort has better self control than Harry, Voldermort has better mental discipline than Harry. Put quite simply, Harry is no match for Voldermort and only a series of coincidences and Voldermort's weakened state has lead to Harry defeating / escaping Voldermort on several occasions already.

So our emotions tell us that Harry must defeat Voldermort but logic tells us that he cannot.

Is there a third option? So far JKR has written the HP series as a reflection of the world in general, creating a microcosm containing characters that are so strong in their characteristics that they are more like caricatures, enabling each and every one of us to identify to some extent with one or more of them (maybe all of them). Given that the HP world is a reflection of the real world, does good ever really defeat evil? The answer to that, so far, in the History of our world, is no. There is a balance, good and evil in each of us, or rather the potential for either. I'm not suggesting that the balance is equal, far from it; I believe the majority of people on earth to have good desires. I also believe that many of these people with good desires are mislead and things that were once considered wrong are now considered acceptable.......but that doesn't make them right!!! The point is, no matter what battles have been fought throughout the history of the earth, the balance between good and evil has been more or less maintained with each waning and peaking in its turn.

Some on this forum may have read The Great and Secret Show, by Clive Barker. It's a long and detailed book so without going into too much detail, it concerns two great "spirits" or super-beings who battle and battle and battle. The crux of the matter is, neither can ever really win.

If Harry does defeat Voldermort, defying all probability, what will the cost be? What will his legacy be and more importantly, what will Voldermort's legacy be?
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Old 01-07-2007, 11:56   #2
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Re: Can Harry Win?

TFN,

The question you pose in this thread is the basis of all speculation as to the contents of the final book; and you are correct - Harry is in no position to defeat Voldemort.

However, I believe that you skipped one of Voldemort's greatest weaknesses - his disregard for youth and for "the little guy" as it were. RAB, Harry as a baby, Harry's friends, love etc. All these are factors that Voldemort scorns because he believes his cold intellect to be above them. Voldemort's eventual downfall will, no doubt, be caused not by one great quantity, but a plethora of small factions and factors that will align against him. As such, Harry, though not singular in said "downfall", plays his own part. Ron and Hermione will play theirs. Dumbledore did his bit (even though he can hardly be considered a "small factor"), and RAB did, too.

Hence, the answer to the first question, that pertains to the likelihood of Harry defeating Voldemort, is no. We see Harry is utterly clueless in the cave, and that it takes all of Dumbledore's immense intelligence to figure out what to do. Since we all know Harry will never attain such sharpness of mind, we must be left with the hope that other things will come into play, on Harry's side, in his hunt for the remaining Horcruxes, and Voldemort himself.

I did not read "The Great and Secret Show", but can theorize that in terms of the Potterverse the spirits fighting are made up of factions, not individuals, or super-beings. Indeed, I may be wrong, but Dumbledore himself implied that the "good" in the world must be strung together very well, so as to keep evil at bay, by fighting it again and again. I hope, for Harry's sake, that he was not referring to The Boy Who Lived alone, but to all fighting against the reign of dark.
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Old 02-07-2007, 08:03   #3
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Re: Can Harry Win?

A lot of this relates to Paintball's insistance that Harry simply defeating Voldemort is an "idiot plot" and in that rudimentary sense, it can bee seen as such. I mean logicaly Harry does not posses the power or experience to do what is before him. But we must also remind ourselves that there is more involved in this play other than Harry alone, and that has been one of my largest standpoints all along. One of the keys will be that it will be Harry's love and acceptance of all magical beings that will turn tables. Voldemort controlls with fear. Harry will unite the magical (and possibly muggle) world through compassion and loyalty. Giants, Centaurs, House elves, merpeople, Goblins, muggleborns, half bloods, all will back Harry. No, I don't see two armies lining up against each other, but I do see having the different and varried strengths of the other "species" playing their role where needed. WE also know beyond a doubt that love will come ito play as well. Can Harry win? . . . as such, . . . alone . . . I do not think so, but, Can Harry win with the unity of magical beings behind him? I think so!
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Old 02-07-2007, 13:02   #4
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Re: Can Harry Win?

What I was getting at, more than anything else, in my post, is that, ultimately, does it realy matter? Ok so it matters to Harry and his freinds and it matters that people stand up to evil (see my signature for proof of my beleif in that) but ultimately, regardless of what help Harry gets, can he win? Yes he can defeat Voldermort, given the appropriate help, but what is the legacy of this battle? When we look at 20th centuary history we see that the legacy of Nazi Germany is ultimately the EU, the merits of which are very debatable but I'm sure we can all agree that it is better than where Hitler was trying to take us. However, there is another legacy: Firstly we have had idiots like Idi Amin idolizing Hitler and supressing a nation. Secondly we have the forcing "underground" of the neo-nazis where they are more difficult to keep tabs on but are undoubtably funded by extreamly wealthy and influential people, working away towards their own goals and ideals virtually unhindered by popular oppinion. To translate this to Harry Potter terms, will Harry's assumed victory ultimately bring bennefit to the people as a whole and how is this dependant on Harry's survival or sacrifice, as the case may be?
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Old 02-07-2007, 14:06   #5
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Re: Can Harry Win?

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Frozen North View Post
What I was getting at [...] will Harry's assumed victory ultimately bring bennefit to the people as a whole?
Short answer: Yes.

Slightly longer answer: Yes, of course, but not for eternity, naturally - peace is something that people must work for if it is to continue.
It's like a relationship with other people: If you stop being nice to your friends, if you cease to go to the parties they invite you to, if you don't bother to invite them to your own parties ... sooner or later this friendship will dissolve. This is one side of the coin.
The other side is: There will always be people who turn up as if from nowhere (or "thin air", as JKR would phrase it), who enjoy power, who also enjoy using that power to make other people suffer. What a "good government" (or "good Ministry for Magic") should do here is, a) try to keep the number of people growing up to become such monsters as small as possible by caring for all the children, by giving them love, attention, education (including ethical values); and b) if such a Reborn-Voldemort turns up, they must make sure that there are enough people ready to take him on and defend the "commonwealth".

That's what I think.

P.S.: Just happened to find this at my personalized Google page under the heading "quotation of the day" - I'll quote it here because I think it is *really* relevant:
"Die Welt wird nicht bedroht von den Menschen, die böse sind, sondern von denen, die das Böse zulassen." - Albert Einstein
("The world isn't endangered by people who are evil, but by those who let evil things happen.")
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Last edited by Sir Cadogan; 02-07-2007 at 14:59.. Reason: addition of Einstein quotation
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Old 03-07-2007, 08:27   #6
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Re: Can Harry Win?

Love the quote Sir Cadogan!

And I agree, the defeat of Voldemort will have a wonderful imediate effect, especially if it happens with Harry uniting several different magical beings as well as wizardkind to achieve the victory. This union I think will go farther to promoting lasting peace than simply having Harry defeat Voldemort unaided. But, also as you stated. There will always be those who think differently and seek power, so there will always be use for Moody's catch phrase . . . "Constant Vigilance!"
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Old 03-07-2007, 18:13   #7
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Re: Can Harry Win?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sirius Potter Fan View Post
A lot of this relates to Paintball's insistance that Harry simply defeating Voldemort is an "idiot plot" and in that rudimentary sense, it can bee seen as such. I mean logicaly Harry does not posses the power or experience to do what is before him. But we must also remind ourselves that there is more involved in this play other than Harry alone, and that has been one of my largest standpoints all along. One of the keys will be that it will be Harry's love and acceptance of all magical beings that will turn tables. Voldemort controlls with fear. Harry will unite the magical (and possibly muggle) world through compassion and loyalty. Giants, Centaurs, House elves, merpeople, Goblins, muggleborns, half bloods, all will back Harry. No, I don't see two armies lining up against each other, but I do see having the different and varried strengths of the other "species" playing their role where needed. WE also know beyond a doubt that love will come ito play as well. Can Harry win? . . . as such, . . . alone . . . I do not think so, but, Can Harry win with the unity of magical beings behind him? I think so!
First and foremost I don't insist that JKR writing Deathly Hallows in such a way where Harry is a part of Voldemort's defeat would be an idiot plot. I see 100s of ways for her to accomplish this possibility. What I have said over and over again is that Dumbledore assigning to Harry the solo task of locating and destroying the horcruxes and then finding and defeating Voldemort with no plan in place for Harry to succeed makes HBP an "idiot plot" and for this reason I see a hidden plot of Dumbledore setting up a trap.

We all know, however, that JKR is free to have the trap plan succeed or she can have something go wrong with the trap, but Dumbledore had to have a plan or HBP is an idiot plot.
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Old 05-07-2007, 15:55   #8
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Re: Can Harry Win?

Well, I don't think that any of us think that Harry will be doing anything entirely on his own. Harry has never really been alone throughout the series. Dumbledore himself told Harry to work together with Ron and Hermionie, on this, that he would need them, and I don't think that it is just for emotional support either. On top of that, Harry has made friends and good aquaintences from other adults and even different magical beings. Harry will do nothing alone.
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Old 15-07-2007, 19:00   #9
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Re: Can Harry Win?

You know what is ironic - Harry shouldn't be able to win - I mean come on, the books should have taught you enough that Harry is only ever remarkable under duress and I argue that it is survival instinct that kept him alive versus real skills to destroy Voldemort. Dumbledore didnt exactly arm Harry to the hilt, give him magical lessons that would bring him to near the level of Dumbledore.
See he doesnt need to - and he is the irony ...
Voldemort will kill Voldemort - because Voldemort's arrogance, coupled with his diminshed soul with a dash of unbalanced emotions will lead to his death.
His fear is death - all the steps he took have taken him closer and closer versus further away ... I mean this was all but spelt out in HBP by JKR - Voldemort sealed his own death warrant and every step he took since he got news of the prophecy took him closer and closer to death ...
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