Left Page Border
Makes the header linkable

Go Back   The Final Horcrux > Future Book Speculation > Discussions on general Septology

Discussions on general Septology "The One with the Power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches ... "

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rating: Thread Rating: 1 votes, 5.00 average. Display Modes
Old 31-05-2007, 06:24   #31
Seeker615
Ghosthunter
 
Seeker615's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: New York
Posts: 291
Rep Power: 14Seeker615 is on a distinguished road

Re: DIATSSISE Theory

Great replies Sirius and Mr. Bandman

I agree that the theory is really well written and anything is possible in Jk's world. I really don't think she will disapppoint us in the end.

And as far as Dumbldore is concerned. We know he is great at Transfiguration. I was reading OOTP yesterday and one of the examiners (Marchbanks I think her name was) said no one could find Dumbledore if he doesn't want to be found. She said he did things with a wand she has never seen before. And this was when he was 17!
__________________
"It is our choices that show us what we truly are, far more than our abilities."
Albus Dumbledore: Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets.
Seeker615 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-06-2007, 04:58   #32
Sirius Potter Fan
Night Patroll
 
Sirius Potter Fan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Tulsa, OK USA
Age: 53
Posts: 1,690
Rep Power: 16Sirius Potter Fan is on a distinguished road

Re: DIATSSISE Theory

Yes Seeker I remember reading that very part a few weeks back, and thought of starting a thread on just what that may hint at. Never got around to it. But . . . since it does fit in with this discussion . . .
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marchbanks
examined him personally in Transfiguration and Charms when he didNEWTs… did things with a wand I'd never seen before.'
You have to think about what this says about Dumbledore's abilities. This is someone speaking who was deemed superior in that area of magic as to be judge over NEWTs. And if Dumbledore was capable at 17 to do things in transfiguration that she had never seen (let alone done herself) Just what would he be capable of now? Yes, we knew there was a handy supply of polyjuice, but . . . I think that it is very likely Dumbledore would not need polyjuice to impersonate anyone he chose. . . yes, including Snape.
__________________
Where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.
His memory will live on . . .




There is no place I know to compare with pure imagination; living there you'll be free, if you truly wish to be.
_Willy Wonka

Murphy's Law: "Whatever can go wrong, will."

Mad-eye Moody's Law: "Murphy was an optimist!"
Sirius Potter Fan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-06-2007, 07:11   #33
Seeker615
Ghosthunter
 
Seeker615's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: New York
Posts: 291
Rep Power: 14Seeker615 is on a distinguished road

Re: DIATSSISE Theory

Plus (this may be a bit off topic) in the very first book Minerva mentions that Dumbledore knows dark magic but chooses not to use it. This was way way back in the first chapter of the first book. We were already getting a glimpse of how powerful he is.

Quote:
'You flatter me" said Dumbledore calmly. "Voldemort has powers I will never have." "Only because you are too ---- well----- noble to use them."
__________________
"It is our choices that show us what we truly are, far more than our abilities."
Albus Dumbledore: Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets.

Last edited by Seeker615; 01-06-2007 at 07:14.. Reason: added quote
Seeker615 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2007, 10:57   #34
paintball
TFH Graduate
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Texas
Age: 71
Posts: 23
Rep Power: 0paintball is on a distinguished road

Re: DIATSSISE Theory

I just received an email on the DIATSSISE site telling me I should add the fact that some of the streets lights were described as broken as the sisters made their way to Snape's house. This person thought this was a clue that Dumbledore had been there with his putterouter. I don't know. When I reread this I got the impression that some were working and some were broken. I get this mental image of broken glass, not just unlit street lights. I'm not inclined to list this as a clue, unless someone else tells me the impression they get is the possible use of the putterouter. Let me know what you think.
paintball is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2007, 15:40   #35
Sirius Potter Fan
Night Patroll
 
Sirius Potter Fan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Tulsa, OK USA
Age: 53
Posts: 1,690
Rep Power: 16Sirius Potter Fan is on a distinguished road

Re: DIATSSISE Theory

Hello again Paintball! Glad to see you back! Here is the passage in question . . .

Quote:
Originally Posted by HBP p 28
Bella followed, her cloak streaming behind, and saw Narcissa darting through an alley between the houses into a second, almost identical street. Some of the streetlamps were broken; the two women were running between patches of light and deep darkness.


I agree Paintball, you are right to reject that as evidence. It is clear that the streetlamps were not all out since they were “running between patches of light and deep darkness.” It also states “some of the streetlamps were broken”, not that they were just “out”. I would say that this passage is definitely not a hint at Dumbledore’s presence, but just setting the scenery and the mood for what was to come. The passage is simply showing us how run down this neighborhood is. When we have seen Dumbledore using his putterouter, (and when Moody uses it as well) all the lights in an area are put out, not just a few.
__________________
Where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.
His memory will live on . . .




There is no place I know to compare with pure imagination; living there you'll be free, if you truly wish to be.
_Willy Wonka

Murphy's Law: "Whatever can go wrong, will."

Mad-eye Moody's Law: "Murphy was an optimist!"
Sirius Potter Fan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-06-2007, 14:34   #36
paintball
TFH Graduate
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Texas
Age: 71
Posts: 23
Rep Power: 0paintball is on a distinguished road

Re: DIATSSISE Theory

Since I didn't go into detail on my web site as to why I think JKR adding Catch22 to her suggested readers list was a very cleaver clue, I thought I would point out here that I think it is oviously because JKR had just put Dumbledore in a Catch22 (no-win) situation. For those not familiar with Catch22 here is an excerpt from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catch-22

Among other things, Catch-22 is a general critique of bureaucratic operation and reasoning. Resulting from its specific use in the book, the phrase "Catch-22" is common idiomatic usage meaning "a no-win situation" or "a double bind" of any type. Within the book, "Catch-22" is a military rule, the self-contradictory circular logic of which, for example, prevents anyone from avoiding combat missions. In Heller's own words:

There was only one catch and that was Catch-22, which specified that a concern for one's safety in the face of dangers that were real and immediate was the process of a rational mind. (Lt.) Orr was crazy and could be grounded. All he had to do was ask; and as soon as he did, he would no longer be crazy and would have to fly more missions. Orr would be crazy to fly more missions and sane if he didn't, but if he was sane he had to fly them. If he flew them he was crazy and didn't have to; but if he didn't want to he was sane and had to. Yossarian was moved very deeply by the absolute simplicity of this clause of Catch-22 and let out a respectful whistle.

"That's some catch, that Catch-22," he [Yossarian] observed.
"It's the best there is," Doc Daneeka agreed.

Thanks

Paintball
paintball is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-06-2007, 02:17   #37
serophis
TFH Graduate
 
serophis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Irvine, Kentucky
Posts: 49
Rep Power: 0serophis is on a distinguished road

Re: DIATSSISE Theory

I have only one small, slight problem with the theory as it stands. Look at the last paragraph of Spinner's End. Notice that Bellatrix had a look of shock on her face, when normally you would expect a look of victory or satisfaction.

Is it possible that Snape had impersonated Bellatrix as well? I know it seems kinda out there, but what better way to set the trap than to lure Narcissa to Spinner's End, act like a sceptic of Snape's loyalty, and ask all the questions that you know he'll have an answer for (questions I'm sure were rehearsed much earlier). And of course if Dumbledore gets real stuck on a question, Snape is always there in the same room to offer some advice via legimency.

Of course, they weren't expecting the Unbreakable Vow to come into play. I personally believe that there was a 3-part vow, that was essentially broken down into three separate Vows.

Vow 1: You (Severus) are to help Draco carry out the Dark Lord's wishes (also notice that they point out so often how Snape calles Voldy the Dark Lord...I know everyone else does, but it still seems like the use of his name like that screams CLUE). This particular vow is null and void because Dumbledore is making a vow on behalf of Snape, which cannot be done.

Vow 2: Dumbledore will protect Draco at school. This is a given and is what he would have done anyway, so no harm there.

Vow 3: Dumbledore will carry out Draco's orders to kill himself (Dumbledore). This is the only time Dumbledore/Snape pauses...he isn't expecting this, and no form of semantics can get him out of this very well-worded phrase. And Unbreakble Vow (I assume) can't be made with contingencies (for example, "I vow to carry out Voldemort's order that he gave to draco (of course, if I later find that Voldemort ordered Draco at one point to fetch him a glass of water, all I have to do is remember to bring refreshment to our next battle). The only order that Dumbledore knew about was the order for Draco to kill him, plain and simple. He made a vow, and if you follow that promise to its conclusion, replacing the elements with what they actually mean, you change:


I promise that if Draco can't carry out the task Voldemort assigned, I'll do it for him.

to

I promise that if Draco can't kill Dumbledore, then I'll do it for him.

It's like a math problem...at the point that the vow is made, you have "X," which is the command Voldemort gave. In order to make a vow, you must have in your mind an idea of what "X" is (otherwise, the vow could be held off indefinitely by Dumbledore refusing to allow anyone to inform him of any orders given to Draco by Voldemort). Thus, we know that X, for the purposes of the vow, is the murder of Dumbledore.

I hate to get this complicated, but otherwise, Dumbledore could have easily moved the situation around so that his promise meant anything he wanted. Take the example of a lie detector test:


Investigator: "John, did you kill your wife?"

John: (Thinking to himself: Well no, I didn't. A high-velocity slug of hot metal was projected through the air, and the metal killed my wife.) "No, I didn't."

Using this split second thinking, John could fool the lie detector every time (perhaps the reason lie detectors are inadmissable in US courts).

Thus, Dumbledore had no loophole, nowhere to run, and was forced to choose between his own life (The next great adventure) and the lives of all those who would be in danger if he blew his own--and Snape's--cover.
__________________
Harry, Listen to me. The words of Snape echoed in his mind. If you ever in your life trusted me, you must do so now. Dumbledore sacrificed his own life so that I could stand by your side in this very moment. Don't let his sacrifice be in vain!

-an exerpt from Deathly Hallows, a Work in Progress (My own fanfiction work)
serophis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-06-2007, 07:31   #38
Sirius Potter Fan
Night Patroll
 
Sirius Potter Fan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Tulsa, OK USA
Age: 53
Posts: 1,690
Rep Power: 16Sirius Potter Fan is on a distinguished road

Re: DIATSSISE Theory

Well, on the Dark Lord part, ALL Death Eaters reffer to Voldemort as the Dark Lord, the same as all other wizards/witches will reffer to him as "You know who" or 'He who must not be named" It is only a select few who will call him Voldemort. So the use of the "Dark Lord" name does not single out the user as being Snape . . . (Harry brought up that point with Snape during one of his Occlumency lessons in OotP)
__________________
Where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.
His memory will live on . . .




There is no place I know to compare with pure imagination; living there you'll be free, if you truly wish to be.
_Willy Wonka

Murphy's Law: "Whatever can go wrong, will."

Mad-eye Moody's Law: "Murphy was an optimist!"
Sirius Potter Fan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-06-2007, 01:20   #39
serophis
TFH Graduate
 
serophis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Irvine, Kentucky
Posts: 49
Rep Power: 0serophis is on a distinguished road

Re: DIATSSISE Theory

Yes, I know, I know; perhaps it was just the fact my sleepy eyes had scanned over it one too many times last night that made it seem to stand out more.

But like I said in the post, I know that every death eater calls him that; but the rest of the post seems to hold weight in my opinion.

As to remarks that the author of the DIATSSISE theory being rude/obnoxious/presumptious/whatever by saying that unless the theory he conceived is used, the entire book will have been a fool's plot; perhaps I can add a meager defense to Paintball.

As one who has read many mysteries (Sherlock Holmes being just some of these), I feel that it is generally the responisiblity of the mystery writer to save his or her best for last. In Sherlock Holmes, for example, there may be a few small mysteries (for example, Sherlock explaining to Watson why he is doing something seemingly strange, such as tapping a wall looking for a loose brick, etc); but the largest mystery is always one that is exponentially larger than any other mystery, such that it encompasses all other elements of the story.

I feel that Paintball is essentially saying, as predictable as some of JKR's mysteries may have been, most were pretty good, and millions were kept in suspense until the very end. Therefore, as the story itself is not just seven stories, but one large seven-part story, the final end to the mystery should be much greater, much cleverer, and much more difficult to predict than any other former mysteries.

Of course, some may say that JKR is spent; that she just decided to follow the logical progression of the story, have Harry destroy the Horcruxes, and finish of Voldemort in the last final battle (a task he is essentially told he must do from Book 6). But when has Harry ever followed the natural progression? Rather than becoming a Slytherin, he chose to become a Gryffindor. Rather than give up the Stone for the promise of a family, he instead killed Quirrel and stopped Voldemort's rise for a few years. And instead of running and regrouping in book 4, he actually turned, faced, and fought Voldemort one on one, and managed to survive.

Harry has always chosen to take a path separate from the one seemingly set out before him. So the question is, what is the "set" path for him now? To go to school like a good little boy and ignore all the big bad Death Eaters? Of course not. He has already decided against returning to Hogwarts as a student in the previous book. He has already decided to hunt down Voldemort's horcruxes and then fight the Dark Lord himself. This path was one he chose, sure, but now that path is seemingly one that will allow no turning back, therefore it is the path "set out" for him in book seven.

So what I feel the DIATSSISE theory asks us is this: What will Harry, or those around him, do to modify the pre-set goals we have for Harry? We know Voldemort is not going to just stand around and wait for Harry to destroy his Horcruxes; from the book 7 flap we know that the OOTP dispatches themselves to Privet Drive to extract him if possible in order to keep him safe.

I don't think that JKR is foolish to choose a linear storyline in contrast to all those she has before; but I feel that she has enough literary skill to turn the tables on us one more time.
__________________
Harry, Listen to me. The words of Snape echoed in his mind. If you ever in your life trusted me, you must do so now. Dumbledore sacrificed his own life so that I could stand by your side in this very moment. Don't let his sacrifice be in vain!

-an exerpt from Deathly Hallows, a Work in Progress (My own fanfiction work)
serophis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-06-2007, 01:37   #40
serophis
TFH Graduate
 
serophis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Irvine, Kentucky
Posts: 49
Rep Power: 0serophis is on a distinguished road

Re: DIATSSISE Theory

Alright, I know this is technically a double-post but I'm lonely and sometimes must respond to my own questions to feel that warm fuzzy sense of community. Plus, I feel that this particular comment is completely separate in nature from my previous post, and should be treated as such.

*Anyway*...Does anyone other than me find significance in the name of Chapter 2 of HBP? Personally, I believe that just like Professor Sprout is a herbologist, I think some other names can have significance that are perhaps meta-story at best.

In other words, I believe that "Spinners End" refers to the end of the story itself; that the Tale-spinner has effectively ended the story with this chapter. I feel that Chapter 2 of HBP marks the beginning of the end of the seven-book series, in that it puts in motion a series of events that will eventually lead to whatever conclusion book 7 holds.

If we accept DIATSSISE, Dumbledore seals his own fate in this chapter, yet his sacrifice sets in motion the events that will lead to Voldemort's ultimate demise.
__________________
Harry, Listen to me. The words of Snape echoed in his mind. If you ever in your life trusted me, you must do so now. Dumbledore sacrificed his own life so that I could stand by your side in this very moment. Don't let his sacrifice be in vain!

-an exerpt from Deathly Hallows, a Work in Progress (My own fanfiction work)
serophis is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


  Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
All times are GMT -8. The time now is 22:09.
Style Designed by Epic Designz
 
 

Harry Potter & all associated names and images remain the property of J.K Rowling, Bloomsbury Publishers UK and AOL Time Warner.All other logos and trademarks in this site are property of their respective owner. The comments are property of their posters, all the rest © 2005 by The Final Horcrux.
You are not permitted to hotlink/hyperlink any images from the site.
Please respect the intellectual rights of The Final Horcrux. You must contact the webmaster/administrator of The Final Horcrux if you wish to take any part of the site and contents for reproduction on another site, forum, or other web presence. Any site that plagiarises The Final Horcrux will be subject to a complaint being registered against them.
 

Right Page Border