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HBP Speculation Speculation about book 7 given the new info from HBP

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Old 24-02-2007, 12:23   #1
gbogbo
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RAB Secret Keeper for Dumbledore?

We all wonder what the journey to the cave was really all about. We've also wondered who R.A.B. is, who his/her companion may have been, why Dumbledore took Harry to the cave (was it a lesson?), what happened to the original horcrux, etc.

At first blush, this cave journey was just about recovering a horcrux. But, if it really was a lesson about something deeper, then we have to come up with an explaination as to why Dumbledore wouldn't come out and just say so. I've wracked my brain trying to come up with a straightforward answer to this, but all I can come up with is a "magical" reason for Dumbledore's silence.

Consider this guess:

1) R.A.B. was Regulus Black. This seems certain given how his last initial was changed in different translations to continue to represent the particular language's word for Black.

2) Dumbledore was the person who determined there was a horcrux in the cave and learned that two people were required. He took Regulus along (why, I don't know), and kept him from revealing what was up through a Fidelius Charm for safe keeping.

Consider this passage:
"Yes, this is the place," said Dumbledore.
"How can you tell?" Harry spoke in a whisper.
"It has known magic," said Dumbledore simply.
Cryptic, but it could imply that Dumbledore knew ("known magic"), but couldn't tell Harry that fact.

And:
"Here," he said. "We go through here. The entrance is concealed."
Harry did not ask how Dumbledore knew.
And:
"I rather thaink," said Dumbledore, putting his uninjured hand inside his robes and drawing out a short silver knife ... "that we are required to amake a payment to pass."
"Payment?" said Harry. "You've got to give the door something?"
"Yes," said Dumbledore. "Blood, if I am not much mistaken."
Does Dumbledore know this detail because he's been through this all before? Did he bring a knife along for this explicit purpose?

And:
Almost absentmindedly, Dumbledore raised his wand again, twirled it once in midair, and then caught the crystal goblet that he had conjured out of nowhere.
"I can only conclude that this potion is supposed to be drunk."
How did he know that?

3) R.A.B. died in the cave and is an inferi with a real horcrux.
MA: "Forgive me if I'm remember incorrectly, but was Regulus the one who was murdered by Voldemort -"
JKR "Well Sirius said he wouldn't have been because he wasn't important enough, remember?"
...
JKR: "That doesn't necessarily show that Voldemort kiled him..." (From The leaky Cauldron, MuuggleNet inteview July 2005)
So, how was it that Regulus actually died?
"Professor" he said finally. "Do you think the Horcrux is here?"
"Oh yes," said Dumbledore. "Yes, I'm sure it is. The question is, how do we get to it?"
"We couldn't ... we couldn't just try a Summoning Charm?" Harry said, sure that it was a stupid suggestion. ...
"Certainly we could," said Dumbledore, stopping so suddenly that Harry almost walked into him. "Why don't you do it?"
...
"Accio Horcrux!"
With a noise like an explosion, something very large and pale erupted out of the dark water some twenty feet away; before Harry could see what it was, it had vanished again with a crashing splash that made great, deep ripples on the mirrored surface. Harry leapt backward in shock and hit the wall; his heart was still thundering as he turned to Dumbledore.
Is Dumbledore's sudden stop an indication that he is just about to explode with the tension of Harry having stumbled upon just the thing to make the "lesson" complete...but something that he, himself, could never have suggested. Because...

4) R.A.B.'s death took the secret to the grave, and now the secret may not be revealed, even by Dumbledore!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Here is a quote from www.jkrowling.com:
What happens to a secret when the Secret-Keeper dies?
I was surprised that this question won, because it is not the one that I'd have voted for… but hey, if this is what you want to know, this is what you want to know!

When a Secret-Keeper dies, their secret dies with them, or, to put it another way, the status of their secret will remain as it was at the moment of their death. Everybody in whom they confided will continue to know the hidden information, but nobody else.

Just in case you have forgotten exactly how the Fidelius Charm works, it is

"an immensely complex spell involving the magical concealment of a secret inside a single, living soul. The information is hidden inside the chosen person, or Secret-Keeper, and is henceforth impossible to find -- unless, of course, the Secret-Keeper chooses to divulge it" (Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban)

In other words, a secret (eg, the location of a family in hiding, like the Potters) is enchanted so that it is protected by a single Keeper (in our example, Peter Pettigrew, a.k.a. Wormtail). Thenceforth nobody else – not even the subjects of the secret themselves – can divulge the secret. Even if one of the Potters had been captured, force fed Veritaserum or placed under the Imperius Curse, they would not have been able to give away the whereabouts of the other two. The only people who ever knew their precise location were those whom Wormtail had told directly, but none of them would have been able to pass on the information.


So, Dumbledore must take Harry to the cave to show him as much as he can about the horcrux, but without revealing the secret.

This scenario may fit these clues and our other suspicions. We've thought that Dumbledore was R.A.B, and this would, at least, place Dumbledore among the members of the R.A.B. horcrux stealing mission. It would also explain a journey that is really a lesson...and something that Dumbledore could not be explicit about. Harry should have enough information to surmise where the horcrux is, so Dumbledore did not die in vain at all. In fact, if R.A.B. was Dumbledore's secret keeper, and if R.A.B. took the real horcux to watery grave, then there was no other way of conveying that information to Harry.

Ideas anybody? Why would Dumbledore have taken Regulus on the first trip? Can Harry see the horcrux using Sirius' mirror?
"The mirror that Harry got from Sirius might not have helped as much as you think but, on the other hand, will help more than you think." JKR

"Will the two way mirror Sirius gave Harry ever show up again? JKR: Ooooo, good question. There’s your answer." JKR

"I have no comment at all on that mirror. That mirror is not on the table."

Last edited by gbogbo; 24-02-2007 at 13:11..
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Old 24-02-2007, 13:47   #2
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Re: RAB Secret Keeper for Dumbledore?

If the fidelus charm was in place, I don't think Dumbledore would have been able to have taken Harry to the cave either.

And The boat in the cave kind of puts a damper on things with your theory, because if Regulas is RAB, then he and Dumbledore could not have gone on the boat together, as both were grown Wizards, their magical ability would have weighed too much, the boat only worked for Dumbledore and Harry because Harry was underage, so his magical ability did not register. Unless JKR finds a way around this by having them make 2 trips?

Another thing is the way that Lupin put it, he said that Regulus only survived a few days after deserting the Death Eaters. So I take that to mean that someone in the Wizard world had witnessed his death, or found his body or something, otherwise Lupin would have said, "Regulus disappeared only a few days after deserting the Death Eaters". But OF COURSE, one can never be sure with JKR. She certainly did not give us any kind of story on how Regulus might have died, or who might have been around, or even where he was, so Lupin could have just been assuming he was dead since no one ever seen or heard from him again. We do know for a fact that he is dead, or else Harry would have never been able to have inherited Kreacher. And she has said that he is dead.

I think too that if JKR goes with the most obivious, that Regulas is RAB, it will have been kreacher on the boat with him in the cave, and that the locket is the one that was found in Grimmuald Place, and that Mundungas has taken the locket and sold it to someone else.

But I am with you on the idea that Dumbledore knew too much about how things were going to work in that cave for it to have been his first time there without some background information from someone regarding the cave. He even made Harry promise to do everything he said before leaving the Castle that night.

My own theory, if Regulas is RAB, is that Slughorn had given him advise on how to handle entrances in caves, what to do about magical boats, and how to get potions out of basins, and what this potion might do. Kind of like a former student shows up several times, to see the Wise old Potions Professor and asks a lot of strange questions shortly before his death.
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Old 24-02-2007, 14:13   #3
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Re: RAB Secret Keeper for Dumbledore?

I had thought earlier that Regulus' father (Orion? is tht the name?) may have been R.A.B.'s accomplice at one time. I had wondered who might've told Riddle the final piece of the puzzle: the spell to make the horcrux (remember, Slughorn balked at that point). Orion and Riddle wouldn've been contemporaries and both would've been on the dark side. Orion's paranoia in later years could have come from a fear that he knew Riddle's greatest secret. Kreacher would be a good bet too.

Anyway, your idea basically comes down to Theory A: The cave trip was a straight forward journey to gather a horcrux and that Dumbledore had done a bit of homework beforehand. Unfortunately, R.A.B. had beaten them to the punch and the locket then went to Grimmuald Place - to Mundungus - to Alberforth?

I'm wondering about Theory B: The cave trip is a deeper lesson for Harry and it was about teaching Harry how to get that specific horcrux (at the bottom of the lake). If so, then the million dollar question is "Why didn't Dumbledore explain more about what was really up?".

Your comment about the boat is salient too:
Dumbledore chuckled.

"Voldemort will not have cared about the weight, but about the amount of magical power that crossed the lake. I rather think an enchantment will have been placed upon this boat so that only one wizard at a time will be able to sail in it."
Do we really know how old R.A.B. was when this took place? If he was young, then we don't have a contradiction. If he was older, and if the pair included Dumbledore and R.A.B., would this indicate that R.A.B. would've had to have been dead already? An inferi under Dumbledore's control?

(For Theory A, this would be a good reason to think of Kreacher.)

Last edited by gbogbo; 24-02-2007 at 14:21..
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Old 24-02-2007, 21:00   #4
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Re: RAB Secret Keeper for Dumbledore?

Regulus was born in 1961 and died in 1979 according to the Harry Potter Lexicon, so he was 18 when he died, or would have turned 18, within the death year, so he was over 17, and had come of age before he died. So going with Theory B, I don't see how he could have made across in the boat with Dumbledore if he were alive.

So I suppose he would have had to have been dead, an Inferi under the control of Dumbledore.

It isn't impossible, but it would have taken an incredible amount of foresight on the part of Dumbledore, because he didn't even hear the prophecy until 1979, and Harry and Nelville were not born until 1980 in July. And this realization is going to send me off to another thread.......
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