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Character conspiracy theory "Krum attacked Crouch, no-wait for it, then stunned himself!"

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Old 04-09-2005, 06:46   #1
The Frozen North
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Voldermort is good

Ok, ok! I know all you "normal" people will be thinking that I'm the mad one here but bare with me for a while. After I have constructed my arguments you are perfectly a liberty to pull them down, rip holes in them, destroy them and generally disagree as you see fit but I thought we might have a little fun with this one, so here we go.
1.
If Voldermort is evil so is Alexander the Great, a revered and respected leader from ancient times. His rise to power was somewhat suspect (in those days, and many would argue that this still applies today, you had to be ruthless to get to the top). Alexander had people executed, invaded other countries and generally imposed his rule upon others. There were no elections in his empire!!!! On the other hand he brought order where there was previously chaos. He gave people the opportunity of education. He built great cities of prosperity. He built the worlds greatest libraries (I thought I should include this as our entire MP community is built upon books)
2.
If Voldermort is evil so are all Japanese leaders until (but perhaps not including) modern times. The Japanese emperors have lead a privileged existence, imposing their will over others, enjoying riches produces by the endeavours of others, executing those that have stood in their way and have on at least one occasion (I'm sure it has been several occasions but my knowledge of oriental history is somewhat lacking) invaded China for political or financial gain. On the other hand, under the long lived socio-political structure that was in place in Japan education was prized, order was maintained in society, individuals had respect for each other, improvement of self was encouraged.
Now we move onto some arguments that others may not like but please remember my intention is not to insult but to in fact provoke discussion (and I don't necessarily believe what I'm writing, I just think that some interesting things might come out of this). Please don't be offended!!!!!

3.
If Voldermort is evil all British royalty is evil. The British monarchy has a somewhat chequered past, some have done undoubtedly cruel and selfish things, others have had good intentions but were clearly misguided but the thread that links them together is lack of responsibility. Even the queen today lives happily on the results of this chequered past with no attempt to make restitution for the acts of her ancestors and predecessors. Receiving stolen goods is a crime; by the same argument surely wilfully benefiting from the evil acts of others makes you just as guilty as they are. Voldermort has no doubt benefited from the actions of earlier dark wizards, not least Slytherin and has merely used his own ambition to further their work.
4.
If Voldermort is evil so are at least some American presidents. America has many times tried to impose their will over other sovereign nations. America, in some states, executes people whose actions are not in keeping with the desires of the majority and as previously argued in an earlier thread; majority opinion does not mean that it is right and good - just look at the non-nazis in WWII Germany, a minority but most would now agree that the Nazi regime was evil.
5.
If Voldermort is evil so is Nelson Mandela. No one can doubt the good intentions of Nelson Mandela but the actions carried out in his name and sometimes, arguably, at his command (certainly at the command of his wife) were at very least questionable.
As yet we don't actually know what Voldermort's intentions are. We can guess but then a significant number of people believed Hitler's intentions were good, until they saw the result of his actions. My point being that there is room for error. Voldermort may wish to run things as a benevolent ruler and feels that the ends justify the means that he is employing.

"Ok!" you say, "but what about the way he treats muggles? What about it? He clearly sees muggles a lesser beings but at least he doesn't eat them as we do with the beings that we consider to be beneath us . As a species in general, our record of treatment of "lesser beings" is appalling so Voldermort's treatment of muggles, however distasteful, can be seen as inconsequential.

My final argument is based on one simple premise; Viewpoint!!!!
If you look at world history the victorious side is always the righteous side. I have no doubt that some of this can be put down to this actually being the case and that the powers of good inspire people to overcome their adversaries, however, I content that most conflicts in world history are far more complicated than one side being right and the other wrong, one being good and the other evil. I contend that the reason history records the righteous nearly always winning is because it is the victor that writes history, not the vanquished and therefore it is recorded in a somewhat bias way.

So there you have it, Voldermort is not evil, just misunderstood!!!!
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Old 04-09-2005, 09:56   #2
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Re: Voldermort is good

LOL

You know what - your last point is the most telling ... viewpoint.
Visionaries of the world are that for one thing - their vision.
What is to dictate that one persons views are wrong and evil based on another - your own viewpoint.
Voldemort will not think he is evil, bad and all that jazz - he will think he is justified in his own viewpoints that anyone not of pure blood - descendant of Salazar and the good blood and name are scum and don't deserve air to breath.
Then you have others look and say - that is plain evil and disgusting - he is clearly killing people and being evil to satisfy his own ends.
But notice whichever side of the fence you sit - both parties have allies and followers - and only because they look at the person's ideals and vision to be the right one based on their belief ... reminds me of religion

Sadly actions of the factions dictate the true worthiness of the cause - but what's to say what we see as good isn't really bad - and visa versa?

It's all about choice - just like JKR says
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Old 04-09-2005, 15:53   #3
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Re: Voldermort is good

I think there is a line, and Voldemort crossed it. He went from killing for the greater purpose, as there are casualties in all wars, to killing for himself. The deaths needed for the Horcruxes were acts of evil (in my opinion of course).
It is like what you said about Hitler - he did great things for Germany unitl, well, we know what happened there. So, what has Voldemort actually done that is of any benefit to the Wizarding world? Even his own followers aren't safe from him...he lets his DE and Giants wreak havoc for apparently no reason.

It could be said he wants to unite (in a sick and twisted way) creatures of all kinds, by exposing them to the muggle world, but really, he hasn't done anything that I can think of, to say 'but that was okay...'

I think of Ollivander's comment '...terrible, but great...' and wonder if we are yet to hear of them...
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Old 05-09-2005, 10:28   #4
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Re: Voldermort is good

Even Dumbledore pointed out that tyrants always fear those they oppress - Voldemort could have looked at that as justification for his controlling leadership - as you said it isn't normal but then again we have seen in this world the actions of great tyrants and how they lead the people they are suppose to represent.
Voldemort is still no different - he was public and vocal about his ideals of society - and this got support from people that saw things the same way.
I think it was in OoTP - but didn't even the Black's support Voldemort's ideal - if not his mechanisms for delivery?

This thread was about if Voldemort is good - well the opinion that he wasn't is based on other people's ideals - those that look at things differently - those that choose a different path - have more empathy or even compassion of other races and people .. but that is almost like saying they are right and he was wrong - it is about belief - we all share our own and while you look at the action of another with shock and horror - to them it was normal and justifiable.
We all look at what he did as being evil and twisted - from his point of view he had a real fear of death and did what he could to prevent it ... we view his actions as evil, him as settling a part of his psyche that was neurotic over death ... he see's it as justifiable ..
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Old 21-09-2005, 21:42   #5
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Re: Voldermort is good

I like this! You know. . . some history teacher should find this and use it for about a week or two's worth of lessons! The kids would listen intently like never before!

The snag I see here is time line. In "modern" society we have certain behaviours and "morals" that are acceptable. Human rights are formost in our interests, and hence why actions like Voldemort's as well as the historical figures now seem evil and vile to our sensitivities. And this is where the line is drawn, by how our society see's things today. At the time of the great rulers, their type of behavior was common place and expected, even necessary. Plain and simple, a ruler could not stay in power, no matter what his ultimate intentions, without being ruthless as you put it, so in their time they were not considered to be evil. However even in the ancient times their actions at the time were often still seen as evil, note, as Voldemort set out to kill baby Harry, to ensure his own survival, Biblicly, Harod having all baby boys killed because he felt the baby Jesus a threat to his reign, was still considered evil. Now, however, we must face the fact that Voldemort has been placed by JKR in our time (or very near it now) and in todays standards, Voldemort is the Vilest, most evil, nasty, and horendous character imaginable.

So my opinion stands, as our current society views actions like Voldemort's as evil, and since Voldemort is in our current time and society, then as definitions allow, Voldemort is indeed evil! But i really like the way you think!
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Old 17-11-2005, 01:06   #6
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Re: Voldermort is good

Quote:
Originally Posted by kashlie
I think there is a line, and Voldemort crossed it. He went from killing for the greater purpose, as there are casualties in all wars, to killing for himself.
That's a great point, however it assumes that we know Voldermort's intentions, goals and motivations. JKR's portrayal of the Voldermort character is decidedly from Harry's viewpoint and as I said before, (but not in precisely these words) he who writes history ultimately decides history. To give a good HP example on this theme, just look at Snape, we are given lots more information about him than we know about Riddle/Voldermort and look what imense debate that has caused, I think that the jury is still out on him for many people. It's all about perspective, knowledge and what you base your morals on. For the majority of western society, our morals are based on Christian values however look at the ancient Myan (sorry if the spelling is wrong) people of south america, in historical terms not concidered evil but by today's Christian morals human sacrifice is not acceptable and abhorred by pretty much everyone. I guess the pivotal questions here are; does Voldermort kill purely for his own advantage and; is working for self advantage evil (we all do it) and; who decides when the ends no longer justify the means? After all ultimately it's the history writer that decides the end result combined with the moral standards of the current society and of course what that society bases it's morals on, eg. plural marriage is still legaly practiced in Pakistan (this is not a comment on Islam, I don't know enough about it to pass comment)
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Old 15-02-2007, 19:33   #7
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Re: Voldermort is good

I felt compelled to add to this. You mention Alexander the great and other historical figures who pillaged and invaded, but all of the leaders you mention were, in their own way, inspiring leaders. They all had huge amounts of leadership quality and inspired people to war, such was the faith in their " leaders".
They were also cruel, and vicious, but in those times and places such things were more commenplace, and held more religious significance.
Voldemort doesn't " inspire " ANY of his followers, including Lucius and Severus, they are all too afraid of him. They " fear " not serving him. They do what they do out of fear, just like wormtail, not loyalty, or inspiration.

And if you think im wrong, then why did they make Voldemort wait 13 years for a body?.
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Old 30-06-2007, 15:16   #8
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Re: Voldermort is good

Quote:
Originally Posted by secret seeker View Post
I felt compelled to add to this. You mention Alexander the great and other historical figures who pillaged and invaded, but all of the leaders you mention were, in their own way, inspiring leaders. They all had huge amounts of leadership quality and inspired people to war, such was the faith in their " leaders".
They were also cruel, and vicious, but in those times and places such things were more commenplace, and held more religious significance.
Voldemort doesn't " inspire " ANY of his followers, including Lucius and Severus, they are all too afraid of him. They " fear " not serving him. They do what they do out of fear, just like wormtail, not loyalty, or inspiration.

And if you think im wrong, then why did they make Voldemort wait 13 years for a body?.
People follow "leaders" for all sorts of reasons. I don't know where you are based but there is an excellent example of this in British politics right now. I wont go into full details but Gordon Brown has been Tony Blair's second in comend for a decade but throughout this time it has generally been known that their relationship has been very much strained at times: So why did Brown follow Blair? The answer is qute simple; It is important to remember that they have a broad agreement on principles, for any such simbiosis this is essential. Blair was in the more powerfull and influential of the two and was, therefore, in the position to give Brown a possition of greater influence. So why did Blair employ Brown? Firstly, it's always good to keep your main opponents close to you, to moniter and if necessary, constrain; secondly, in promoting Brown, Balir gained an important and powerfull political allie. This Alliance has recently disolved in the inevitable way, one of the partnership became too powerfull for the other and the other lost his usefullness, in this case, Blair, after several months (perhaps years) of pressure from some of the party's influential players, decided to step down.

Is it not possible that Lucius, Snape or any one of the other DEs intends to milk Voldermort's "leadership" for all they can until they can gain no more from the alliance? They may then leave his service, or might even attempt a coup, dependant on what support they commanded with the other DEs.
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Old 30-06-2007, 16:13   #9
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Re: Voldermort is good

Now that would be a handy twist there . . . Snape and Lucious teaming up . . . having themselves set for life, then doing away with Voldemort themselves. But . . . as neat as it sounds I doubt it LOL! I think Voldemort can be easily blindsided. He is way too confident in himself. Yes he is amazingly powerfull, but as he made the mistake of underestimating the "magic" that saved Harry's life when his mother protected him, he continues to put his trusts where they are not necessarily merrited . . . like in his " hidden" horcruxes . . .
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Old 10-07-2007, 05:10   #10
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Re: Voldermort is good

We haven't really seen what sort of a leader Lord Voldemort would be, if he had absolute power, have we? He has his issues with mortality, but apart from that:

- he's more into freedom for other species to just hang out and be themselves. He lets Demoentors breed, giants smash, house-elves serve. Perhaps the goblins will be on-side.

This inspires a thought - a feeling, actually. I kind of wrote that in a spirit of Devil's advocacy, but looking at it, a part of me is saying -'You can't post it. You can't publically support what you know he is - evil'.

So, I have this retraction. Someone above mentioned that values are relative to the times - well, I know it looks that way, but I don't think this relativistic viewpoint is correct, and I think our culture is suffering for it. All points of view are NOT equal. Some are superior. And everyone may agree that something is alright, but that does not mean that it is. (It gets difficult to defend this theory at this point, in a largely secular world).

Voldemort's actions although mirrored by historical figures, are largely 'evil'. History may record things one way, but I don't think the actual rules of how humans should live change very much. Some things are just obviously more right. Telling the truth is obviously 'better' than lying. We cannot see the outcome of actions before we perform them. Thus, lying to prevent an imagined 'evil' is not justified.

Anyway.


I was amused by the example in the first post above of Japan. Here in Korea, they forgive and forget the Nazis, but man do they hate the Japanese. Every school kid I have talked to about it, every single one, shares a deep impression of the Japanese and their rulers as evil. It's not a fun rivalry, like Australia and New Zealand. It's a clear knowledge of their evilness.
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