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HBP Character Discussion Any facts or details from HBP on new and old characters

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Old 26-07-2005, 04:09   #21
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Re: Whose side is Snape really on? **SPOILERS**

I guess I'm having trouble trying to figure out how anyone here can find any reason that taking another persons life might be considered okay. There's no difference whether you kill someone by accident or out of hate, anger, pity, necessity, greed, etc. It's still taking another persons life isn't it? Taking control over their right to live!

It wouldn't matter what Snape's reason was for killing Dumbledore. Unless we have been duped by the author, then Dumbledore is truly dead and regardless of the reason, Snape killed him, and regardless of the reason, it split his soul.
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Old 26-07-2005, 06:38   #22
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Re: Whose side is Snape really on? **SPOILERS**

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sirius Potter Fan
That is more or less how I see things as well, with only one possible exception. I believe that Harry is going to need some REAL proof of just what side Snape is on. I believe that that will have to come from some message left behind by Dumbledore. . . most likely I think, a memory of Dumbledore's of the REAL reason he trusted Snape, and on top of that, a memory of the agreement between the two that Snape would Kill Dumbledore if he had to to maintain his position with Voldemort.
See now, even so Harry is still not going to feel all warm and tingly inside when he looks at Snape, even after he becomes convinced of his innocence (if he really is innocent obviously). He's still going to feel that huge grudge against Snape for taking away his mentor and helper.. because there are going to be times in book 7 where Harry thinks he can't make it without Dumbledore there to help him and will be on the verge of giving up..

As for Forte's post, there are a lot of reasons you could take someone's life and have it not be a complete soulless evil thing to do. You could kill someone who's deathly ill and in an extreme amount of pain so they didn't have to live with that anymore.. you could take someone who's brain-damaged off life support.. not every such death is completely mean and terrible..

.. I don't think that just because Snape was the one to actually kill Dumbledore that it would split his soul. If so, there would be so many people running around with split souls - all the Death Eaters, probably Dumbledore and some of the Order members, Aurors.. That can't be the only qualification at all - otherwise Voldemort would definitely have a lot more than the supposed seven..
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Old 26-07-2005, 08:14   #23
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Re: Whose side is Snape really on? **SPOILERS**

In agreement with Tonks, also in a war situation, those in the military may take several lives with one bomb release, I don't believe that that makes them evil or would split their soul into hundreds of pieces. I believe the splitting of the soul is as said from murder, pure cold blooded, calculated murder. and it is not the spliting of the soul that makes one evil, but it is the spliting of the soul that is a result of such a blatantly evil act. Also, each soul splitting does not automaticaly create a Horcrux. There is a special incantation, most likely a very involved ritual, simmilar to bringing Voldemort back to his body, that takes the part of the soul that has split off, and seals it within the object selected. It doesn't just "happen" every time someone commits murder. I feel that Snape's look of "revultion and disgust" was not that he loathed Dumbledore, but loathed that he had no choice but to do the deed. it may also be noted, that Dumbledore was quite near death from the potion as it was, possibly beyond the point of being saved, so Snape only brought his death about a little sooner.
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Old 26-07-2005, 12:11   #24
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Re: Whose side is Snape really on? **SPOILERS**

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sirius Potter Fan
it may also be noted, that Dumbledore was quite near death from the potion as it was, possibly beyond the point of being saved, so Snape only brought his death about a little sooner.
That is a point I picked up on as well ...
I wonder, given the way Dumbledore was post drinkie's - if he was ever going to recover?
I mean, he was in a really bad shape when he was flying back to Hogwarts ... he wasn't even able to move until he saw the Dark Mark - that gave him the motivations to give his last all to get to Hogwarts ... notice how JKR's portrays him as they are flying ...
I think he was going to die anyways - I think whatever he drank was slowly killing him - he called for Snape just on the off-chance he might be able to save him - but I think he was a goner - I think Snape realised he was a goner and killing him might even be classed as euthanasia ...
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Old 26-07-2005, 22:02   #25
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Re: Whose side is Snape really on? **SPOILERS**

My point exactly Blaise, Snape knew Dumbledore was beyond help, and he had the vow to think about. Shure, he could just sit there and watch Dumbledore die, or one of the other DE's there do the job, but where would that land him and the order? Snape would be dead from the broken Vow, and the order would no longer have a spy close to Voldemort. Really, a no brainer on his part. I thik if Snape were truly on Voldemorts side, he would have Taunted Dumbledore a bit before doing it. . . evil people like doing that :evil:
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Old 27-07-2005, 00:08   #26
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Thumbs up Re: Whose side is Snape really on? **SPOILERS**

I'm not sure how much of this has been posted already, so sorry if I repeat something that's been said. I've honestly been a Snape person from the very beginning. Maybe he has been unnecessarily cruel to certain students at times, but we all have our flaws. It wasnít until the fourth book, however, that I realized just how valuable he really was. I could only root for him more as I read the fifth book. The second chapter of the sixth book floored me. I had to read it twice to make sure I understood completely what had happened. That was one of the bravest things he'd done so far. I think he was hesitating because he knew that it would mean death for HIM, he wasn't thinking that it was Dumbledore's life on the line. He knew that Dumbledore could defend himself against Malfoy. The Vow showed his true allegiance to the Order , not to Voldemort :evil: .

Someone pointed out in an earlier post that Wormtail was probably a spy. I think Snape realized this as well. Had he refused to take the Vow, it would have blown his cover. Bellatrix was already suspicious as it was, he couldnít afford any more mistakes. In his mind, he was deciding that the Order was more valuable than his own life, but later, most likely with the help of Dumbledore, realized how crucial his role as spy was in the war against the Dark Lord. While he may have convinced Narcissa and Bellatrix, Draco was still very cautious about the information he let slip to Snape. This was a smart move on his part, Snape would have probably found some way of foiling the plan (even if it did mean his death) Iím sure Snape and Dumbledore discussed it extensively, however, and Snape eventually realized that death would have most likely been the easy way out. It must have been unimaginably difficult to do what Snape did. (No wonder he was so offended when Harry called him a coward...) Im sure he was thinking of refusing to assist Draco, but Dumbledore wouldn't hear of it. This is reinforced when Dumbledore pleads with Snape. I originally thought that part might disprove my theory of Snape's innocence, but thanks to Paul Katz of Entertainment Weekly (Where ever you are, Paul, I send you my love!) I realized that Dumbledore wasn't pleading for his life, he was pleading with Snape to follow through with the plan. Dumbledore isn't the begging type, and he is brilliant in getting out of tight spots. He must have realized early on that it would ultimately come down to this, so he passed on the necessary information to Harry to complete the mission he had started. I don't want to turn this into a novel, so if any of you feel very strongly either way, feel free to email me.




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Old 27-07-2005, 03:39   #27
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Talking Re: Whose side is Snape really on? **SPOILERS**

I'm just a little curious... where do so many people around here get the idea that good people are always nice and bad people are always nasty?

One of the things I've really enjoyed about the Harry Potter series is that "the world isn't split into good people and Death Eaters". Evil people can be very nice. Very, very nice and pleasant to be around. You saw that Tom Riddle could capably and skillfully wheedle whatever he wanted out of anyone except Dumbledore, by charisma and flattery. It's foolish to use force when flattery will do. Flattery gets you almost anywhere, and it can be addictive to the people you use it on. It makes people WANT to do what you want them to do.

On the other hand, my experiences in real life tell me that there are a lot of trustworthy, capable, good people out there, who aren't exactly pleasant dinner companions, for whatever reason. They're ugly, or they lack charisma, or they're socially inept, or abrasive, or snarky.

If you're still labouring under the illusion that good people are always happy pleasant chirpy people who love to hug fuzzy bunnies and never wear black (or at least are always pure of heart and never act impulsively or selfishly) be my guest.... but can I have some of whatever you're smoking? :evil1:

Real people (or realistic characters) are not perfect; they hurt, they occasionally do stupid things and make bad decisions (because they made sense at the time). Almost nobody in the world that is considered "evil" today, including Hitler, took pleasure from thought that they were being evil, and the most frightening evil people are the ones who honestly think they're doing the right thing for the right reasons. People who say they like being evil are either in jail (or will be), or for the most part are posers who don't know what evil really is. That's the stuff of melodrama (or "t3h internet drama omgwtfbbq!!11")

Jo kicks arse at making realistic characters. We like some and hate others just like we like or dislike real people we meet. Likeability, however, is not necessarily a function of a person's "goodness" quotient, and it really annoys me how often people forget this. But I am INTRIGUED by this author who actually is ACKNOWLEDGING this fact of life, and I'm just DYING to see how it plays out!

So whose side am I on? I'm actually not entirely sure, though I do believe he is working to help Voldemort meet his end. HOWEVER, having said that, in my opinion, it is likely to be entirely for his own reason(s), rather than a commitment to upholding what is Good and Just, because IMO Snape sees himself as being past the point of redemption. His soul was torn anyway; one more death (Dumbledore) in the grand scheme of things isn't going to matter much (better on his head than on Draco's) and Voldemort's ultimate fall will never make things "right". (I'm still speculating as to what, precisely, might make Snape possibly think that life without Voldemort would be preferable enough to life in his service, to be willing to risk his own life.)

Do the ends justify the motives or the means?
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Old 27-07-2005, 05:09   #28
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Re: Whose side is Snape really on? **SPOILERS**

Quote:
Originally Posted by half_blood_princess
... I realized that Dumbledore wasn't pleading for his life, he was pleading with Snape to follow through with the plan. Dumbledore isn't the begging type, and he is brilliant in getting out of tight spots. He must have realized early on that it would ultimately come down to this, so he passed on the necessary information to Harry to complete the mission he had started. I don't want to turn this into a novel, so if any of you feel very strongly either way, feel free to email me.
Very well said!!! You've just got me convinced that Snape isn't evil after all!
The pleading part; it was the part that originally had me convinced that Snape was evil.... But your point and somebody else's point that the "look of hatred and disgust" on Snape's face was because he hated what he had to do--to kill Dumbledore.
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Old 27-07-2005, 12:40   #29
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Re: Whose side is Snape really on? **SPOILERS**

Quote:
Originally Posted by Somnia_Veritas
I'm just a little curious... where do so many people around here get the idea that good people are always nice and bad people are always nasty?
Broad sweeping statement that - I can assure you many of us question the traditional good versus evil persona - I think quite a few of us actually see beyond a portrayl of a character by the author - indeed I think in essence that is what this thread is all about ...
I agree that one of the best parts of the Potter series is this switching - I mean look at the earlier books when characters are painted all good, or all bad - and then right at the end it flips ...
No-one should go into the Potter series thinking everything is black and white ... because JKR loves to twist things ...
I think her comments on this very subject was another great piece of JKR spin - she tries to sow doubt on the idea that Snape actually is good at the end of HBP ... this is a bluff - or double bluff - but will keep people guessing for the next couple of years
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'Please make it stop, I know I did wrong, oh, please make it stop and i'll never, never again..'
'Don't hurt them, don't hurt then, please, please, it's my fault, hurt me instead ...'
'Please, please, please, no ... not that, not that, I'll do anything ...'

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'Merely taking your life would not satisfy me..'
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Old 27-07-2005, 14:03   #30
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Re: Whose side is Snape really on? **SPOILERS**

Quote:
However, he rejoined our side before Lord Voldemort's downfall
This was staring me in the face - when did Snape join? He started teaching at Hogwarts after Trelawney, and after he overheard part of the prophecy. The year before Harry was born...or the year he was born?
When did join he Dumbledore's side? Was it when he applied for the job? How did Dumbledore know then that Snape had undertaken great personal risk? Did he really get on DD's good side just by swearing he no longer believed in Voldemort, then later proved himself by giving DD information?

Now...Voldemort killed Lily and James in the October, so school had just started back, but did Snape take up the position at Hogwarts that year, or after Voldemort disappeared?
Did he do something, after rejoining, to prove he was worthy of teaching at Hogwarts? I don't think Snape would have got the job purely on his word that he had changed.
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