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HBP Character Discussion Any facts or details from HBP on new and old characters

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Old 24-12-2005, 21:37   #1
HeleneB
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Dumbledore-Mighty Wizard or Major Wuss?

For a long time now, I've been impressed with Dumbledore's power and intelligence. Note a few of the following excerpts by him or about him:

SS, p 215
“I don’t need a cloak to become invisible,” said Dumbledore gently.

SS, p. 300
“It was one of my more brilliant ideas, and between you and me, that’s saying something . . . My brain surprises even me sometimes.”

CoS, p. 261 & 262
“Yet again, Cornelius, I tell you that taking Hagrid away will not help in the slightest,” said Dumbledore. His blue eyes were full of a fire Harry had never seen before . . . “And what exactly did you want with me, Lucius?” said Dumbledore. He spoke politely, but the fire was still blazing in his blue eyes.

CoS, p. 314
“Not the greatest sorcerer in the world,” said Harry, breathing fast. “Sorry to disappoint you and all that, but the greatest wizard in the world is Albus Dumbledore. Everyone says so. Even when you were strong, you didn’t dare try and take over at Hogwarts. Dumbledore saw through you when you were at school and he still frightens you now, whenever you’re hiding these days—“

PoA, p. 187
“. . . I don’t think any of us have seen Professor Dumbledore that angry . . .”

GoF, p. 220
“ . . . But Dumbledore’s always done things his way, hasn’t he . . .”

GoF, p. 530
“. . .I know Dumbledore’s brilliant and everything . . .”

GoF, p. 562
“Hagrid, no!” Dumbledore shouted, his eyes flashing.

GoF, p. 609
“He cannot hope to lay hands on you while you are under Dumbledore’s protection . . .”

GoF, p. 672
Dumbledore bent down, and with extraordinary strength for a man so old and thin, raised Harry from the ground and set him on his feet.”

GoF, p. 679
“Stupefy!” . . . Dumbledore in front, his want outstretched. . . At that moment, Harry fully understood for the first time why people said Dumbledore was the only wizard Voldemort had ever feared. The look upon Dumbledore’s face as he stared down at the unconscious form of Mad-Eye Moody was more terrible than Harry could have ever imagined. There was no benign smile upon Dumbledore’s face, no twinkle in the eyes behind the spectacles. There was cold fury in every line of the ancient face; a sense of power radiated from Dumbledore as though he were giving off burning heat.

GoF, p. 688
“. . . said Dumbledore. His blue eyes were blazing, though his voice remained calm.

GoF, p. 705
. . .His eyes were blazing now . . . “Listen to me, Cornelius,” said Dumbledore, taking a step toward Fudge, and once again, he seemed to radiate that indefinable sense of power that Harry had felt after Dumbledore had stunned young Crouch. . .

GoF, p. 708
. . . said Dumbledore, his voice rising now, the aura of power around him palpable, his eyes blazing once more . . .

OotP, p. 43
Whose voice had echoed so horribly, so menacingly, through the kitchen?

OotP, p. 65
“He was so angry,” said Hermione in an almost awestruck voice. “Dumbledore. We saw him. When he found out Mundungus had left before his shift had ended. He was scary.”

OotP, pp. 621-623
“. . . you seem to be laboring under the delusion that I am going to—what is the phrase? ‘Come quietly.’ I’m afraid I am not going to come quietly at all, Cornelius. I have absolutely no intetion of being sent to Azkaban. I could break out, of course—but what a waste of time, and frankly, I can think of a whole host things I would rather be doing” . . . “. . . I seem to remember that you achieved “Outstanding’ in all of your N.E.W.T.s, but if you attempt to—er—‘bring me in’ by force, I will have to hurt you.”

A streak of silver light flashed around the room . . . a second silver flash . . .Harry saw a dark figure fall . . . a thud . . . the sound of breaking glass . . . scuffling footsteps, a groan—and silence.

. . . There was a flash of fire and the pair of them had gone.

OotP, p 711
“. . . not if Dumbledore doesn’t want to be found! I should know . . . . Examined him personally in Transfiguration and Charms when he did N.E.W.T.s . . . did things with a wand I’d never seen before.

OotP, p. 805
Directly above them, framed in the doorway from the Brain Room, stood Albus Dumbledore, his want aloft, his face white and furious. . . Dumbledore sped down the steps . . . was already at the foot of the steps when the Death Eaters nearest realized he was there. There were yells; one of the Death Eaters ran for it . . Dumbledore’s spell pull him back as easily and effortlessly . . .

OotP, pp. 813 & 814
Voldemort raised his wand. . . at Dumbledore, who turned and was gone with a whirling of his cloak; next second he had reappeared behind Voldemort . . .

Dumbledore flicked his own wand. The force of the spell that emanated from it was such that Harry, though shielded by his stone guard, felt his hair stand on end as it passed . . .

“ You do not seek to kill me, Dumbledore?” . . . “We both know there are other ways of destroying a man, Tom” . . . “Merely taking your life would not satisfy me, I admit--”

OotP, p. 817
“Cornelius, I am ready to fight your men—and win again!” said Dumbledore in a thunderous voice.

OotP, p. 818
His voice faltered as Dumbledore surveyed him magisterially over his half-moon spectacles.

OotP, p. 848
. . .how he had emerged from the trees supporting Professor Umbridge without so much as a scratch on him—

HBP, p. 46
. . . Uncle Vernon could sense that here was a man whom it would be very difficult to bully.

HBP, p. 55
. . . although his voice remained light and calm, and he gave no obvious sign of anger, Harry felt a kind of chill emanating from him and noticed the Dursleys drew very slightly closer together.

HBP, p. 57
“. . . I do not think you need worry about being attacked tonight . . . you are with me.”

HBP, p. 58
He set off at a brisk pace . . .

AND THEN

HBP, p. 590
“. . . I am more defenseless than you can have dreamed of finding me . . .”

HBP, p. 595
For the first time, Dumbledore was pleading.

My question is: who was that guy on the tower? What happened to the Dumbledore we've been reading about for 5+ books? While I do think it could have been someone else on the tower, I also believe it could have been DD. What happened to that mighty wizard?
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Old 24-12-2005, 22:24   #2
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Re: Dumbledore-Mighty Wizard or Major Wuss?

I'd like to think that Dumbledore's death was staged.. it's all part of some greater plan - and that he isn't really, truly dead.. and so all that pleading at the end was all an act, it make it look like he could be killed by Snape... (now is that me wishing - or do i really believe this?) ... anyway... because I do agree that Dumbledore is much to strong and much to wise to make a sill mistake like that. His character is too important and too great to have him killed off in that simple fashion - it doesn't do him any justice.

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Old 25-12-2005, 05:23   #3
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Re: Dumbledore-Mighty Wizard or Major Wuss?

There are many thoughts and indeed threads about this very theme, amongs them, that it was not DD but someone else using polyjuice potion: Slughorne and Peter Pettigreww have been sugested. If you search the site you will find some fantastic theories on this very subject.
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Old 25-12-2005, 18:48   #4
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Re: Dumbledore-Mighty Wizard or Major Wuss?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lily
I'd like to think that Dumbledore's death was staged.. it's all part of some greater plan - and that he isn't really, truly dead.. and so all that pleading at the end was all an act, it make it look like he could be killed by Snape... (now is that me wishing - or do i really believe this?) ... anyway... because I do agree that Dumbledore is much to strong and much to wise to make a sill mistake like that. His character is too important and too great to have him killed off in that simple fashion - it doesn't do him any justice.

And I would agree. I think DD was very much in control of what happened on the tower, in spite of how things seemed.

OotP: "Dumbledore flicked his own wand. The force of the spell that emanated from it was such that Harry, though shielded by his stone guard, felt his hair stand on end as it passed . . ."

It would take more than Draco (regardless of the potion and the burned hand) to disarm DD unless DD let him.
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Old 26-12-2005, 12:47   #5
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Re: Dumbledore-Mighty Wizard or Major Wuss?

Well - the answer to your last question is under discussion and debate in a few threads - it is of course well observed that the man on the tower didnt appear to be the Dumbledore we know, not to suggest it was someone else but more of a state of mind and attitude as well ... resigned comes to mind ...
Is Dumbledore a wuss or Mighty Wizard - remember the second most powerful wizard of all time fears Dumbledore - he was the only one he ever feared - that suggests that no matter what we saw towards the end - Dumbledore was a great Wizard - no as far as motivations, once again a matter of debate!
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Dumbledore - HBP Pg536

'Merely taking your life would not satisfy me..'
Dumbledore - OoTP "The only one he ever feared" Pg895
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Old 26-12-2005, 18:23   #6
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Re: Dumbledore-Mighty Wizard or Major Wuss?

First HeleneB, that is an awesome collection of quotes from my second favorite character! On the question of was that DD that was killed on the tower?. . . I believe JKR said in an interview when asked if DD was really dead, "The old man in the beard is definately dead." that is the basic wording anyway. I find it quite interesting that she sidestepped saying his name. I guess though I'm just too afraid to get my hopes up too much. Yes, I think even in his most weakened state, that DD could have protected himself from Draco with the force of his mind as well. The potion had him physicaly weak, but not mentaly, that was obvious in the way he talked to Draco. . . some real things to think about here.
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Old 27-12-2005, 09:34   #7
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Re: Dumbledore-Mighty Wizard or Major Wuss?

Yes, because I don't think DD is ever truly disarmed--even if they take his wand from him. So the question comes, why was he playing the part of a wuss, when we know he's not one? What was his plan?

And as to the quote by JK, don't forget that she views Books 6 & 7 as one book, so if she had answered that question so we knew DD was not dead, it would be a give away to readers when they see in HBP that he "died." Now perhaps DD is dead and perhaps he is not (I'm inclined to think he's clever enough to have gotten around this--but that's a topic for another thread). Alive or dead, I think DD had a plan. What was it? What was really going on on the tower?
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Old 27-12-2005, 13:10   #8
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Re: Dumbledore-Mighty Wizard or Major Wuss?

There has been a few debates as to what was going on - there isnt anything really conclusive to find yet but many look at the situation Dumbledore found himself in - if things are as written he was slowly dying, Draco had to succeed otherwise he would die and in doing so would also lead to Snape dying ... Dumbledore had the choice to lay his own life to save at least 2 others ... this is if course assuming we are playing on a level field right?
He wasnt a wuss - he was forced into a postion where he knew the only way out was to lay down his life ...
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'Please make it stop, I know I did wrong, oh, please make it stop and i'll never, never again..'
'Don't hurt them, don't hurt then, please, please, it's my fault, hurt me instead ...'
'Please, please, please, no ... not that, not that, I'll do anything ...'

Dumbledore - HBP Pg536

'Merely taking your life would not satisfy me..'
Dumbledore - OoTP "The only one he ever feared" Pg895
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Old 31-12-2005, 15:01   #9
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Re: Dumbledore-Mighty Wizard or Major Wuss?

I don't think that DD was slowly dying. I'm convinced Snape had stopped to ring's damage. There is no way that Draco, even in DD's compromised condition, should have been able to disarm DD--unless DD wanted him to.

And about the potion--I believe that RAB is probably Regulus, and he took Kreacher to the cave and forced him to drink the potion. Since Kreacher is not dead, I think the potion was not a poison. DD said he thought LV would want to question any intruder, and I'm agreeing with DD. So the potion should not kill--it should incapacitate and preserve anyone trying to get to the locket. I had thought at first it might be the Draught of Living Death but it's the wrong color. But there are other sleeping potions mentioned, and it could be a new creation.

I also do not believe that DD sacrificed himself to save Snape and Draco. Think if you were a parent of a child in a school, and the headmaster, knowing a student was trying to kill him, still allowed that murderous student to remain in the school--and your child was nearly killed in a failed attempt. If the only reason that headmaster could justify keeping that murderous student in the school was to "save" him, I would be calling for his resignation and asking someone to press charges. It would be the height of irresponsibility--and I don't think DD is irresponsible. Are we to believe that JK is telling us that Draco's life is more valuable than Katie's and/or Ron's--or any other student who might have gotten in between Draco and DD?

Snape and DD had nearly a year to plan for how to handle this. I think they were probably talking about possibilities after the confrontation at the MoM. DD is no fool, and he had to realize that LV would be determined to get him out of the way. With nearly a year to think things through, I believe DD HAD to have a plan!

Being faced with this, what should he have done? He needed to bring Harry up to speed. He had to put things in order with the Order without appearing to do so. And I believe that he had to consider options for faking his death if it was possible. Now that is not the topic for this thread, but his death (real or faked) would remove him from either front-line action (with a faked death) or send him on to his next great adventure (with a real one). Like Flamel, DD had time to put his affairs in order.

So what did he do? He was the secret keeper for the Order. What happens to the secret if the secret keeper dies? How could he take advantage of his "murder" to help place his spy to the best advantage and keep Draco alive and not a murderer--and find out how DEs could get into the school? Plus he needed to find that other ruddy horcrux, so he could give Harry a training experience with horcrux hunting. Poor DD, with his busy schedule, I'm not surprised at all that he was referred to as tired looking. If DD didn't have a plan, it would be like a father who is the sole bread winner for his family not having life insurance or a will. And it was imperative that he do all this in the way most likely to convince LV that DD was gone and not draw attention to the fact the a horcrux hunt was underway.

Last edited by HeleneB; 02-01-2006 at 12:42..
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Old 02-01-2006, 03:32   #10
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Re: Dumbledore-Mighty Wizard or Major Wuss?

I think your ideas on this are right on the money HeleneB I just wanted to add the possibility that Sirius is the one who helped Regulus-by J.K.R.'s own statements concerning Sirius-we have to be skeptical about anything he said about Reggie. Also I wouldn't rule The Draught of the Living Dead out, since it is one of the first things ever mentioned to Harry by Snape. I can't quite figure it out as far as the cave goes but still....there is an ingredient that was mentioned-absinthe, and that is green. Also it isn't really mentioned what color Harry's Draught is-the last color given is palest pink yet he wasn't finished-
US HBP pg. 191- Harry shrugged and continued what he was doing. Seven stirs counterclockwise, one clockwise, pause...seven stirs counterclockwise, one stir clockwise(time and 7 again )
Across the table, Ron was cursing fluently under his breath; his potion looked like liquid licorice. Harry glanced around. As far as he could see, no one else's had turned as pale as his .

The fact that it's pale is all that is said-not what color it is. It sure feels like we are going to see the draught of living dead being used in some capacity and Regulus seems a likely candidate, maybe I'm off on my guess that he was put under the fidelius charm and Sirius was his secretkeeper. Of course isn't it also possible that the potion Dumbledore drinks was actually put there by Regulus (meant for Voldemort)? There seem to be many possibilities.
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