Left Page Border
Makes the header linkable

Go Back   The Final Horcrux > Discussions on Books 1 thru 5 > Discussions on Prisoner of Azkaban

Discussions on Prisoner of Azkaban "If Black can break out of Azkaban ..."

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 01-02-2007, 12:37   #1
cagedcactus
Sherbet Lemon
 
cagedcactus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Head Quarters of "PotterWatch"
Age: 42
Posts: 453
Rep Power: 14cagedcactus is on a distinguished road

Lightbulb Time Turners, A huge mistake or a huge clue????

I thought that since this thing is hijacking so many threads lets start it on its own.

I personally think that introduction or even involvement of the Time Turners was a huge mistake by JKR. You see she has never come forward, and told us if there is a time limit on them, meaning, if you can travel only certain hours or days or even months and years. She doesnt even mention if you can go in future (so we use common sense and say that you cant).

If Time Turners exist and can be used the way Harry and Hermione used in PoA, they can be used any time anywhere. As long as you play it safe and are not seen in the same spot as your past is seen. That would mean, anyone who has one of them, can practically manipulate anything that happens around him/her. Nothing bad could ever happen to them. As soon as it happens, go back in that moment, and correct it.

-Why then we have Potters dead? It all happened few hours before DD arrived. he could have gone back with a TT and saved them.
-Why then we have Sirius dead?
Heck, he died infront of everyone. Why did no one used a TT to save him?
-Voldemort shoud never be able to come back, should he?
DD could have used TT to go back and prevent anyone from going to that graveyard. Maybe he could have gone instead with some Aurors, and arrest Peter along with that ugly baby Voldemort.
-Voldemort probably shouldnt even exist in this case, should he? why cant DD go back to that Orphanage back in time and undo the greatest mistake he ever made, "Invite Voldemort to Hogwarts for magical education."

I would like to know what you folks think about this.......
__________________
"In thy Face, I see the map of honor, truth and loyalty."
-Helga Hufflepuff the founder of House Hufflepuff

"Let me tell you the secret that had led me to my goal. My strength lies, solely in my tenacity."
-Salazar Slytherin the founder of house Slytherin

"Courage and perseverance have a magical talisman, before which all difficulties disappear and obstacles vanish into air."
-Godric Gryffindor the founder of house Gryffindor

"We have a hunger of the mind which asks for knowledge all around us. And the more we gain, the more is our desire."
-Rowena Ravenclaw the founder of house Ravenclaw
cagedcactus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-02-2007, 15:04   #2
Sir Cadogan
Noble Heart, Steely Sinew
 
Sir Cadogan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Bavaria (Germany)
Age: 62
Posts: 203
Rep Power: 15Sir Cadogan is on a distinguished road

Re: Time Turners, A huge mistake or a huge clue????

I think there is a very basic misunderstanding about the use of time turners, CC. You can never, ever change something that actually happened. If you did, two versions of something would exist, you would split time, as it were - and that's impossible.
Look at how Harry and Hermione use the time turner: They do NOT change anything that happened - they change certain things BEFORE they happen, so there are no two different versions.

1. The hippogryff is never executed - because Harry and Hermione lead Buckbeak away from where Hagrid left him. The reader (and the first-time viewer of the movie) only *thinks* that Buckbeak is executed, because JKR very cleverly describes the sound of the heavy blade coming down and splitting *something*. As we learn later, when we see the same scene through Harry's and Hermione's eyes close-up, in their role as time-travelers: the henchman angrily cuts apart one of Hagrid's pumpkins, because the hippogryff is gone.

2. In the case of Sirius, they just free him from where he's imprisoned, and they give him Buckbeak to escape the Dementors and Fudge's officials. Nothing has happened to Sirius so far. He has not been given the "kiss of death", so Harry and Hermione don't have to "undo" this, but they change the direction of events in order to prevent something from happening.

All this is not entirely logical, of course, but it does make sense in a way if you keep to the rules. - Standing in the hospital wing, Dumbledore is so serenely quiet and unexcited about telling Harry and Hermione what to do, when he says they could save "more than one innocent life", because he already *knows* that they've been successful, because he's already *seen* Buckbeak's place empty outside Hagrid's hut - and while he is talking to them, he must be aware of their other selves, if we can call them that, riding Buckbeak outside the tower where they are rescuing Sirius.

I hope all this makes sense to you. It *is* a rather complicated subject, and I can't be quite certain that I've made myself clear. Well, I've tried ;-)
__________________
"Be of stout heart, the worst is yet to come!" yelled the knight.
Sir Cadogan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-02-2007, 16:34   #3
Glumbumble
TFH Graduate
 
Glumbumble's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Ware, UK
Posts: 357
Rep Power: 13Glumbumble is on a distinguished road

Re: Time Turners, A huge mistake or a huge clue????

I think that that is an excellent analysis Sir, Time-Turners have a limited influence on the manipulation of time.
There are some basic questions that I would ask CC from my view of the Dumbledore's involvement. Why would he stop the deaths of Lily and James when he arranged for them to occur. I am sure that when Dumbledore arrived at Grim Old Place he could quickly have gone to the ministry, instead he interogated Kreature all designed to increase Harry's anger and sense of injustice. I am sure that Sir Cadogan is absolutely right, what has happend cannot change, what is still about to happen can be changed.
I hate to say this CC, and I expect to get a load more stick, but the fim of PoA illustrates this better than the book where it shows two views of McNair swinging the axe. In the first shot we assume that he has killed Buckbeak although we cannot see it, in the second we see that he has swung the axe at a pumpkin. There are not two different time lines only one. One where Buckbeak is never executed.
I think that the analysis of Sir Cadogan has been the most significant to our understanding of the role of the Time-Turner and the way JKR intended it to be understood.
Time cannot be reversed just manipulated in exceptional circumstances.
In the case of the prophecy, Dumbledore did not prevent the prophecy being made he arranged that it should take place, asit alwys had, but within the earshot of Snape.
__________________
There was the Door to which I found no Key:
There was the Veil through which I could not see:
Some little talk awhile of Me and Thee
There was -- and then no more of Thee and Me.

It is our choices that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities.

Last edited by Glumbumble; 01-02-2007 at 16:37..
Glumbumble is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-02-2007, 03:55   #4
cagedcactus
Sherbet Lemon
 
cagedcactus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Head Quarters of "PotterWatch"
Age: 42
Posts: 453
Rep Power: 14cagedcactus is on a distinguished road

Re: Time Turners, A huge mistake or a huge clue????

So far both of you have presented very debatable arguments.

I do not agree with buckbeak's execution scenario, though. Harry, Ron and Hermione stood helpless on the top of that hill watching the execution. It just was not shown in the graphic. After the use of TT, Mcnair swings the axe on a pumpkin, because helloooo , there is no buckbean anymore to slain.
I think the common sense and time loss, would even agree that buckbeak was slain by the time Harry and Hermione decided to use TT.

The whole DD setting up the things arguement is just that, an arguement. JKR doesnt say that, nor does the books. If you are saying that DD wouldnt want to save Potters because he intended them to die, then it is just your speculation. Story hasnt turned in that direction yet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PoA
The rat was squaling wildly, but not loudly enough to cover up the sounds drifting from Hagrid's garden. There was a jumble of indistinct male voices, a silence, and then, without warning, the unmistakable swish and thud of an axe.
Look at the quote above from PoA.

Are you telling me that that swish and thud was not buckbeak's execution?
Are you telling me that Mcnair swung that axe on a pumpkin, even in present time, just like he did in Time Turner event?
I wish that we were able to attach video clips from Movie too. I would have attached how Harry and Ron stood side by side with Hermione leaning on Ron's shoulder watching this thing. Then after that Ron's rat started showing true colors.
__________________
"In thy Face, I see the map of honor, truth and loyalty."
-Helga Hufflepuff the founder of House Hufflepuff

"Let me tell you the secret that had led me to my goal. My strength lies, solely in my tenacity."
-Salazar Slytherin the founder of house Slytherin

"Courage and perseverance have a magical talisman, before which all difficulties disappear and obstacles vanish into air."
-Godric Gryffindor the founder of house Gryffindor

"We have a hunger of the mind which asks for knowledge all around us. And the more we gain, the more is our desire."
-Rowena Ravenclaw the founder of house Ravenclaw
cagedcactus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-02-2007, 04:22   #5
Glumbumble
TFH Graduate
 
Glumbumble's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Ware, UK
Posts: 357
Rep Power: 13Glumbumble is on a distinguished road

Re: Time Turners, A huge mistake or a huge clue????

I think that you have to take the two descriptions of events to make sense of what happened.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PoA
The rat was squealing wildly, but not loudly enough to cover up the sounds drifting from Hagrid's garden. There was a jumble of indistinct male voices, a silence, and then, without warning, the unmistakable swish and thud of an axe.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PoA
Hagrid's back door had opened with a bang. Harry, Hermione, and Buckbeak stood quite still; even the hippogriff seemed to be listening intently.
Silence... then --
"Where is it?" said the reedy voice of the Committee member. "Where is
the beast?"
"It was tied here!" said the executioner furiously. I saw it! just here!"
"How extraordinary," said Dumbledore. There was a note of amusement in his voice.
"Beaky!" said Hagrid huskily.
There was a swishing noise, and the thud of an axe. The executioner seemed to have swung it into the fence in anger. And then came the howling, and this time they could hear Hagrid's words through his sobs. "Gone! Gone! Bless his little beak, he's gone! Musta pulled himself free! Beaky, yeh clever boy!"
In the first situation HRH saw nothing and could not hear what was being said but heard the axe swish and thud. in the second situation Harry and Hermione heard both the voices and the swish and thud. This was the same incident viewed from two different positions. Buckbeak never died at all.
__________________
There was the Door to which I found no Key:
There was the Veil through which I could not see:
Some little talk awhile of Me and Thee
There was -- and then no more of Thee and Me.

It is our choices that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities.
Glumbumble is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-02-2007, 04:36   #6
SnarkologyMajor
TFH Graduate
 
SnarkologyMajor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: South Bend, IN - Lost in my pensieve
Age: 52
Posts: 418
Rep Power: 14SnarkologyMajor will become famous soon enough

Re: Time Turners, A huge mistake or a huge clue????

Very good points all-I agree that the way JKR “defined” her rules with the time-turner, there is only one time-line-except for those who have used the time-turner that is. I know this is confusing but if you look at it like a closed loop of time just like the bell-jar in OotP you can picture it a little better (I hope) . Harry and Hermione essentially got off the singular time-line only to rejoin it again at the same point (too bad you can’t draw on a post). So for three hours (the amount of time they went back) there were 2 Hermione’s and 2 Harry’s. This is why Hermione says-
PoA pg. “Harry, what do you think you’d do if you saw yourself bursting into Hagrid’s house?” said Hermione.
“I’d-I’d think I’ gone mad,” said Harry, “or I’d think there’s some Dark Magic going on-“
“Exactly! You wouldn’t understand, you might even attack yourself! Don’t you see? Professor McGonagall told me what awful things have happened when wizards have meddled with time…Loads of them ended up killing their past or future selves by mistake!”
This along with what Dumbledore says on page 426-
“The consequences of our actions are always so complicated, so diverse, that predicting the future is a very difficult business indeed…”
These lines are among the most important clues in the whole septology-especially after what we’ve learned in Book 6-What exactly does happen when you kill the mirror image of yourself? Could you accidentally split your soul for example? I think this may be JKR’s take on the grandfather paradox. Obviously this inter-relates to what I posted on the Cyclic Time thread.
There are a lot of questions to be asked here-like what exactly are the doubles of Harry and Hermione?They don’t seem to be ghosts or wand shadows. The dementers couldn’t sense them(the time-traveling duo) since they didn’t bother to try to suck out their souls. Does that mean the copy/double of yourself is souless? Or are you splitting your soul when you time-travel? (This may shed light on one question -why Sirius wasn’t affected by dementers in Azkaban and yet immediately fell to his hands and knees by the lake) And what about Dumbledore’s statements –
OotP pg. 620-“I have absolutely no intention of being sent to Azkaban. I could break out, of course-but what a waste of time, and frankly, I can think of a whole host of things I would rather be doing.”
Hmm…I wonder why it would be so easy for him? And look at this statement-
HBP pg. “I sometimes offer Rosmerta my custom, or else visit the Hog’s Head…or I appear to. It is as good a way as any of disguising one’s true destination.”
He is telling Harry that he can appear to be in 2 places at one time-and we have canon for what that reason may be. And he specifically mentions the Hog’s Head (well we know who the bartender is)
This is a slight side-step (but absolutely related), but we do have canon evidence for future time-travel.
Section: F.A.Q.
In 'Chamber of Secrets', what would have happened if Ginny had died and Tom Riddle had escaped the diary?
I can’t answer that fully until all seven books are finished, but it would have strengthened the present-day Voldemort considerably.
CoS pg. 316-“It looked bad all right…but the longer Riddle stood there, the more life was dwindling out of Ginny…and in the meantime, Harry noticed suddenly, Riddle’s outline was becoming clearer, more solid…”
This is a form of future time-travel, because if this Horcrux (trans.-timecross) would have succeeded, a fully corporeal teenage Tom Riddle would have emerged-50 yrs. after he was a teenager. Now add to that the implication of 2 Tom’s/Voldemort’s running around-it sends shivers up the spine!
Even though I should probably get a Lewis Carroll thread going one of these days (I need a time-turner) I will try and summarize it, because it relates to this whole issue. We have glasses, mirrors along with treacle tarts, rabbits, pocket-watches, dormice, etc. running throughout the septology. We have mates, pairs, twins, fakes, imposters (mirror-images in other words) plus upside-down and inside-out clues everywhere also. These are all pointing to “Through the Looking Glass” by Lewis Carroll, and you can add Luna (who “mirrors” either Alice or the White Queen), Sir Cadogen (who is an exact match to the knight), the Mirror of Erised which is read backwards exactly like Jabberwocky. Mimbulus Mimletonia is a portmonteau of portmanteau(good heavens she’s tricky) using mimsy, gimble, mumble, gumble. And jabberwocky is exactly what I thought of with Dumbledore’s “oddment, blubber, tweak, nitwit” statement. And we have McGonagall’s chessboard.
My guess is that all of these clues point at a parallel time-line (loop) or Otherworld/Underworld plotline. And I’ll end with a quote from JKR-
“That beautiful image in C.S. Lewis where there are the pools - the world between worlds - and you can jump into the different pools to access the different worlds. And that, for me, was always a metaphor for a library.”
Books play a very big role do they not? And I can’t forget that book in SS that screams….
SnarkologyMajor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-02-2007, 04:46   #7
cagedcactus
Sherbet Lemon
 
cagedcactus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Head Quarters of "PotterWatch"
Age: 42
Posts: 453
Rep Power: 14cagedcactus is on a distinguished road

Re: Time Turners, A huge mistake or a huge clue????

Ok, so in that case I will just sit here and assume..........
Mcnair, Fudge, DD and Hagrid, and who ever the else was there from ministry to witness Buckbeak's execution, just ordered Mcnair to keep practicing Swish and thud on a pumpkin, until Harry, Hermione returned with the help of TT.
Come on, for a moment I want you to focus here.
How unreal that sounds? Only because the execution is not shown in book, or in movie graphically, doesnt mean that the execution didnt happen. It did happen. In front of Fudge, DD, Mcnair, and Hagrid. That murder was undone by Harry and Hermione when they returned with TT.
Even DD says that more than two lives can be saved that way. Because he knows that Buckbeak is dead. He just witnessed it on that same day. He wishes that to be un done.
__________________
"In thy Face, I see the map of honor, truth and loyalty."
-Helga Hufflepuff the founder of House Hufflepuff

"Let me tell you the secret that had led me to my goal. My strength lies, solely in my tenacity."
-Salazar Slytherin the founder of house Slytherin

"Courage and perseverance have a magical talisman, before which all difficulties disappear and obstacles vanish into air."
-Godric Gryffindor the founder of house Gryffindor

"We have a hunger of the mind which asks for knowledge all around us. And the more we gain, the more is our desire."
-Rowena Ravenclaw the founder of house Ravenclaw
cagedcactus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-02-2007, 05:01   #8
cagedcactus
Sherbet Lemon
 
cagedcactus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Head Quarters of "PotterWatch"
Age: 42
Posts: 453
Rep Power: 14cagedcactus is on a distinguished road

Re: Time Turners, A huge mistake or a huge clue????

Snark, you did bring very good points. Always can count on you for excellent analysis.

When Dementors attacked Harry and Sirius by the lake, the future Harry casts the Patronus to save them. That scene is shown also in the past. But in the past Harry thinks that it is his father, James.
So now if we assume that Sir Cadogan, and GB are right, and Mcnair swung on a pumpkin really, what does that prove?
That proves that three innocent lives were saved. Sirius, Buckbeak, and now Harry too. Because he was saved by future Harry's patronus too.
If we agree on these, then why cant we agree that any bad events can be undone.
Only because JKR is telling us the way she is, doesnt mean that the events can be undone? Because they were undone. If TT was not used, Buckbeak would have died, and Sirius would have lost his soul to a dementor. JKR wants us not to see those happening, because she says that it is going to be un done anyways.
__________________
"In thy Face, I see the map of honor, truth and loyalty."
-Helga Hufflepuff the founder of House Hufflepuff

"Let me tell you the secret that had led me to my goal. My strength lies, solely in my tenacity."
-Salazar Slytherin the founder of house Slytherin

"Courage and perseverance have a magical talisman, before which all difficulties disappear and obstacles vanish into air."
-Godric Gryffindor the founder of house Gryffindor

"We have a hunger of the mind which asks for knowledge all around us. And the more we gain, the more is our desire."
-Rowena Ravenclaw the founder of house Ravenclaw

Last edited by cagedcactus; 02-02-2007 at 05:04..
cagedcactus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-02-2007, 05:05   #9
Glumbumble
TFH Graduate
 
Glumbumble's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Ware, UK
Posts: 357
Rep Power: 13Glumbumble is on a distinguished road

Re: Time Turners, A huge mistake or a huge clue????

CC,

Dumbledore does not want Buckbeak's death to be undone he wants it to be prevented in the same way as he wants Sirius' death to be prevented.

Macnair is not practicing swish and thud. There is one incident where he angrily throws his axe at the fence, in the book, or at a pumpkin, in the film, because Buckbeak had been led away.
__________________
There was the Door to which I found no Key:
There was the Veil through which I could not see:
Some little talk awhile of Me and Thee
There was -- and then no more of Thee and Me.

It is our choices that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities.
Glumbumble is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-02-2007, 05:18   #10
cagedcactus
Sherbet Lemon
 
cagedcactus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Head Quarters of "PotterWatch"
Age: 42
Posts: 453
Rep Power: 14cagedcactus is on a distinguished road

Re: Time Turners, A huge mistake or a huge clue????

Quote:
Originally Posted by Glumbumble View Post
CC,

Dumbledore does not want Buckbeak's death to be undone he wants it to be prevented in the same way as he wants Sirius' death to be prevented.

Macnair is not practicing swish and thud. There is one incident where he angrily throws his axe at the fence, in the book, or at a pumpkin, in the film, because Buckbeak had been led away.
Led away by whom?
Travellers from future. Future Harry and Hermione.
lets say that they were not there. Lets assume that the TT didnt exist and things are running normal.
what then?
Buckbeak would have died, right?
Sirius would have lost his soul, right?
__________________
"In thy Face, I see the map of honor, truth and loyalty."
-Helga Hufflepuff the founder of House Hufflepuff

"Let me tell you the secret that had led me to my goal. My strength lies, solely in my tenacity."
-Salazar Slytherin the founder of house Slytherin

"Courage and perseverance have a magical talisman, before which all difficulties disappear and obstacles vanish into air."
-Godric Gryffindor the founder of house Gryffindor

"We have a hunger of the mind which asks for knowledge all around us. And the more we gain, the more is our desire."
-Rowena Ravenclaw the founder of house Ravenclaw
cagedcactus is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


  Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
All times are GMT -8. The time now is 15:15.
Style Designed by Epic Designz
 
 

Harry Potter & all associated names and images remain the property of J.K Rowling, Bloomsbury Publishers UK and AOL Time Warner.All other logos and trademarks in this site are property of their respective owner. The comments are property of their posters, all the rest © 2005 by The Final Horcrux.
You are not permitted to hotlink/hyperlink any images from the site.
Please respect the intellectual rights of The Final Horcrux. You must contact the webmaster/administrator of The Final Horcrux if you wish to take any part of the site and contents for reproduction on another site, forum, or other web presence. Any site that plagiarises The Final Horcrux will be subject to a complaint being registered against them.
 

Right Page Border