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Discussions on Prisoner of Azkaban "If Black can break out of Azkaban ..."

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Old 09-11-2004, 13:58   #1
Weasleyfanforever
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Back From The Dead?

I believe it is Dumbledore that said that no kind of magic can bring someone back the dead. But how then, was the Time-Turner used to bring Buckbeak back from the dead? Harry and Hermione used the Time Turner after Buckbeak was dead, so can you only not bring back humans from the dead, or was this a mistake?
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Old 09-11-2004, 14:43   #2
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Re: Back From The Dead?

Seems like they technically didn't bring buckbeak back from the dead, they stopped him from ever having been killed in the first place. The circular way Time travel works is very confusing to think about for me but, I suppose I have always thoguht of it as though buckbeak never really died, because they were back in time when the event happened and stopped it from happening so it never really did happen even though if events had gone on without Harry and Hermione having gone back in time Buckbeak would have been dead by the time when they actually used the time turner.

But, even if this is the case and buckbeak never really died it still leaves room for something like buck beak's rescue to occur again and for Sirius or others to "come back from the dead" except they will not have come back at all because they never will have left.

Seems like this would work well for immediate events, like buckbeak's rescue where the events are so recent that changing them won't effect the events that have occured after the death (at least not by much). But, lets say if we were to go back in time and rescue Harry's parents, that would be from so long ago and so many things have happened since then that it would completely change history and would not be something that could be done easily because of all the ramifications.
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Old 09-11-2004, 15:11   #3
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Re: Back From The Dead?

Wow, you took it all my words there!

Time travel seems simplistic - but actually to pull it off with credability is really tough - but we saw in PoA that JKR is capable of it ...
As MW mentioned above - think of time travel as cyclic events - that almost are a paradox of themselves - as in once you do it - a time loop will occur between changes and changing ...
This is something I predict we will see happen in the next few books - and will explain exactly how Voldemort took steps long ago to ensure he was always around - and also check out my article 'Ouroboros and the Dark Lord' - that goes someway towards trying to rationalise a really complex subject!

Back from dead - look no further than Voldemort to see the answer to that ...
Personally I would be dissapointed that with all the hints JKR has placed - that she doesnt use it - but am really excited to see how she uses it if she does ...
Time is relevant to Harry Potter - some smart guy said that 3 years ago ...
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Old 27-12-2004, 15:17   #4
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Re: Back From The Dead?

I think it is a little specific--we never saw Buckbeak's body--we only heard the ax--
Sirius was scheduled to be executed--midnight never came around the first time

I think the events already happened so they were just going throught the motions--
I have the Bill and Ted philosophy of time travel--the events already happened so nothing was changed

If time travel was to change something--it already happened so nothing was changed

So before I get to mathematical Buckbeak never died
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Old 27-12-2004, 16:32   #5
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Re: Back From The Dead?

Umm - well contra to that Hermione looked away as the axe swung and it looked to all intense and purpose that Buckbeak was killed ...
The change in the timeframe was that they took Buckbeak away and as such no-one was killed that day ...
In the normal timeframe I think the reactions of the people watching would suggest Buckbeak was killed and I dont think JKR's writing was to trick us into any other conclusion.

This is the cyclic nature of time travel - theoretically Buckbeak should never have died because they did what they did and saved him - but at some point he would have had to die in order to effect the change ... like what comes first the chicken or the egg
This is where time travel becomes complex - you have to separate what was historical and what was tampered with ... because one changed the knowledge of the events should become history themselves ....
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Old 28-12-2004, 12:26   #6
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Re: Back From The Dead?

This thread takes some reading before you can get it straight in your head!!

My view is that Buckbeak never died - the thud of the axe that the trio heard was the executioner taking out his frustration on a nearby fence post or pumpkin (as in the movie), and that Hagrid's wail was not in anguish over Buckbeak's demise, but the fact that Buckbeak had escaped death.

I'm with Kings regarding the time travel thing - it has already happened so therefore Buckbeak never died in the first place.
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Old 28-12-2004, 17:23   #7
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Re: Back From The Dead?

As has been said in certain time travel theories, all events are unavoidable. By preventing the death of Buckbeak, they could have merely prevented the death, at that moment, but his death is still impending.
Or as some sort of balance, for "stealing" a death, fate brought it about another death would be used to balance it out, someone who was spending alot of time with the resurectee....maybe by bringing Buckbeak back they doomed Sirius....yeah, the tired is talking now.
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Old 29-12-2004, 08:18   #8
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Re: Back From The Dead?

I don't think that Buckbeak ever died either - in defense of this theory, Harry saw himself save himself before he actually did it, right?? So, somehow, in JKR's version of time travel, history already knows what will happen - The axe sound was in frustration because Buckbeak had disappeared.

Remember the noises from outside Hagrid's hut that distracted people? Wasn't that Harry and Hermione as well? "Before" they went back in time?

Confusing, isn't it?
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Old 29-12-2004, 08:25   #9
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Re: Back From The Dead?

So far it looks like I get Boing and Tink on board

Yes Harry did save himself already--so him going back in time was already a part of that loop--

Buckbeak never died--the ax swung because he wasnt there

And Zero I am familiar with your theory as well of balance but I cant remember what movie i saw that one to reference-

-the problem with that is that 2 were supposed to die at the end of book 3--which means that Buckbeak would still have to die then since Sirius bought it
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Old 29-12-2004, 15:25   #10
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Re: Back From The Dead?

OK .... lets look at this ...

Dumbledore says - "if all goes well, you will be able to save more than one innocent life tonight" ...
That means more than one life was ended ... and indeed - a little time turning and you have an alive Buckbeak and Sirius - coincidence maybe?

There was a reason to change history and they did - ipso facto
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'Please make it stop, I know I did wrong, oh, please make it stop and i'll never, never again..'
'Don't hurt them, don't hurt then, please, please, it's my fault, hurt me instead ...'
'Please, please, please, no ... not that, not that, I'll do anything ...'

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'Merely taking your life would not satisfy me..'
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