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Character conspiracy theory "Krum attacked Crouch, no-wait for it, then stunned himself!"

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Old 21-12-2006, 21:03   #21
Mr_Bandman
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Re: Dumbledore is Evil

Forgive me----this rambles a bit----it is stream of consciousness----this has opened a flood gate of possibilities in my head.....

Okay....what drives evil? Self-interest, I think. Self-interest leads to corruption, as does too much power. Why did Dumbledore stay at Hogwarts all those years when he could have been Minister of Magic a half dozen different times? Maybe because children are easier to influence than adults? Create a whole generation of people who think you are the embodiment of good, then taking over becomes easy. He's manipulative, controlling, conniving, secretive, dishonest.....these are not the traits of a good person....

The look of revulsion on Snape's face just before he killed Dumbledore----could that have been because Dumbledore was in a greatly weakened and vulnerable state and Snape was able to employ occlumency on him for the first time? If so, what did Snape see? Is that why Snape had that look on his face? Was it a "how could I have been so stupid to be taken in by this guy" humiliated sort of look?

It is clear to me that Dumbledore's intentions for Harry have always been motivated by self-interest. The question is what is it he hopes to gain by playing Harry as the most powerful pawn a chess match has ever seen?

Last edited by Mr_Bandman; 21-12-2006 at 21:09..
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Old 24-12-2006, 05:20   #22
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Re: Dumbledore is Evil

That last line captures one of my main reasoning for this most unpopular theory.
Dumbledore as much as he said he would be straight with Harry, never really has ...
He farms out the data he feels Harry needs, hiding under the guise of concern and fear of the boy - but look at the end of HBP when Harry asks him directly why Dumbledore trusts Snape - even when Harry was in turmoil having found out Snape had lead to his parents demise ... Dumbledore still holds back the data.
That seems like control - control of situations and people ...
It is clear Dumbledore is focused in the removal of Voldemort - Harry is just his weapon ... Dumbledore is serving his own self interests and is willing to sacrfice those around him in persuit of what he believes is right.
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Old 20-01-2007, 04:23   #23
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Re: Dumbledore is Evil

You know, as much as I hate to admit it, DiE followers put up a very good argument, and maybe Voldemort should have taken a leaf out of D.D.'s book ... what better disguise than that of " A pure, loyal, kind-hearted person " ?.

It's the ultimate disguise for a " Dark lord ", isnt it?.
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Old 20-01-2007, 04:46   #24
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Re: Dumbledore is Evil

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alz View Post
Dumbledore is serving his own self interests and is willing to sacrfice those around him in persuit of what he believes is right.
If that were true, it would mean that JKR has been writing (and is still writing) the most cynical series of books for children and young people ever. For me, this is unthinkable.

True, the series has been turning darker (and less children's book-like) at least since HP3, but still she is certainly aware that the majority of her readers are younger than, say, fifteen (this is my guess anyway. (BTW, does anyone know of statistical data on that?)). And she can't build up a father figure, the epitome of trustworthiness and moral integrity, and then turn it round to be exposed as a selfish, lying hypocrite.

No. No. No. If this theory of yours should turn out to be true in HP7, Alz, then I'll buy you a bottle of finest oak-matured mead.
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Last edited by Sir Cadogan; 20-01-2007 at 04:54.. Reason: added forgotten sentences
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Old 20-01-2007, 09:46   #25
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Re: Dumbledore is Evil

I have read this thread, and thought about it for along time and I cannot believe that Dumbledore is evil. He has spent his life trying to rid the magical world of evil, i.e.: 1st dark lord Grindlelweld in 1945 and now Voldemort. He has tried to bring all magic people together. Even Voldemort refers to him as the champion of commoners, of mudblood and muggles. 95% of all wizards, witches and creatures admire and respect him, the other 5% being Voldemort and his Deatheater’s are afraid of him. You can’t conjure all that respect by being shady. He trusts, although sometimes guarded. He expresses a great deal of love and caring and someone evil could not be this way. Yes he has told lies to protect those he cares about. He has withheld information perhaps for his own means. He is a great man whom others expect great things from and sometimes hard choices have to be made by him.

Now having said that:

I do believe he has manipulated the whole story. I think once he heard the prophecy and Voldemort decided to target the Potters he set in motion the whole story. I think a number of key players knew of his plan, such as James, Lily, even perhaps some of Order. His plan being to protect Harry at all cost, guide him, and fulfill the prophecy, knowing this was the only way to bring down Voldemort. I think Dumbledore suspected Voldemort had taken steps toward immortality, i.e.: Horcrux, and promised James and Lily that he would do everything in his powers to protect Harry.

Let me explain what I think happened:

I believe James gave Dumbledore the invisibility cloak to allow him to hide from Voldemort at the Potters, because he cannot use his wand while he is invisible. James did try to stop Voldemort, as Voldemort would have expected, and Lily willingly gave her life knowing this would save Harry and protect him from Voldemort , because if Voldemort had survived Harry would be in constant danger of continual attacks. I don’t think the curse backfired I think Dumbledore preformed a spell at the same time Voldemort attacked Harry which caused the backfire and the Destruction of the house, but Harry remained unhurt except for his scar. You may ask why didn’t Dumbledore just didn't kill Voldemort then, I think it was because he suspected the Horcrux and truly believed the prophecy and he needed to make it come to pass. He had Harry brought to the Dursley’s by Hagrid instead of allowing Sirius to take him who was also his family, to invoke the old magic of Harry’s blood line and allow him to be protected from Voldemort until Harry could come to the school and learn what he needed to know. I have no thoughts as of yet of what might have happened during the 24hr time between the attack and Harry’s arrival at the Dursley to explain things like how Wormtail got Voldemorts wand but James and Lily’s are missing although I am not sure if Lily even had her wand with her since she did not try and use it against Voldemort to tryand stop him, what happened to their bodies, what did Hagrid do with the bike, when Sirius said he no longer needs it. Eleven years later Dumbledore’s plan continues. He goes to great measure to ensure Harry’s arrival at school where he continues to watch him, quietly assisting him, when he gives him the invisibility cloak hoping he would be like James and explore, perhaps to find the Mirror of Erised that would show Harry hearts desire of a loving family and what he would do for love. Dumbledore continually gives Harry clues and guidance. Dumbledore has made a few mistakes during this journey, i.e.: Quirrell, fake Moody. But every great plan has its pot holes. Harry is doing exactly what Dumbledore planned this explaining, the glints we often see in his eye, or the slight smile he has when Harry tells him things about what happened when he was near Voldemort. I don’t believe Dumbledore means for Harry to always be in danger and Dumbledore regrets many times what he has done and is still to do in order to make the prophecy come true and allow Harry to have a normal life and peace at last when Voldemort is finally defeated. I think Snape has known for sometime the plan, and he was the only one that Dumbledore could use to fool Voldemort, Snape killing Dumbledore was to secure Voldemorts trust in him, thus allowing Snape to spy from the inside and continue to help Harry.

In Short -The Main goal of the OOTP is to bring down Voldemort
-The Prophecy said the one Voldemort marked would be the one to defeat him
-Dumbledore, James and Lily all agreed sacrifices needed to be made to Save Harry and destroy Voldemort
-Harry himself said even if he didn’t know the prophecy that he to would want Voldemort dead

Dumbledore - Evil - No

- A great Wizard with a great deal of responsibility faced with a terrible decision and a difficult plan - Yes


I think in the end Harry will forgive Dumbledore for allowing his parents to sacrifice themselves , because he will know that they chose to die to save him. For he too, has a great deal of love for mankind. And you may think that this is very selfish of Dumbledore and it was all done for his own gain, but I think that is far from the truth. After all he sacrificed himself as well.

Last edited by Arwan; 22-01-2007 at 05:16..
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Old 19-07-2007, 19:29   #26
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Post Re: Dumbledore is Evil

What can I say? Good thoughts, everyone, and Alz, your backup has arrived.

Just a few more key points to add to that first great introductory run-through (and forgive me for not having citations in the quotes)...

1. "And I -- persuaded him -- to tell me the full story." - Albus Dumbledore

2. "Dumbledore's voice carried no hint of a threat; it sounded like a mere statement, but Fudge bristled as though Dumbledore was advancing upon him with a wand."

3. "The only one against whom I INTEND to work is Lord Voldemort. If you are against him, then we remain, Cornelius, on the same side." -- sounds a bit like he's giving Fudge the old "enemy of my enemy is my friend" line, just more discreetly...

4. He always comes in at the last moment...Book 1: Goes to London and rushes back saying "He's gone after him, hasn't he?" knowing FULL WELL that Harry has...Book 2: He sends Fawkes instead of showing his OWN face...Book 4: Doesn't try to stop Moody from taking Harry away to his office, but WAITS and comes in LATER...Book 5: Goes to the Ministry of Magic at the end to take on Voldemort...Book 6: He and Harry return whilst the Death Eaters are loose...

5. "You weren't about to commit a murder right under Albus Dumbledore's nose, for a wreck of a wizard who'd lost all of his power, were you? You'd want to be quite sure he was the bigest bully in the playground before you went back to him, wouldn't you?" -- so...Wormtail was currently leeching from Dumbledore's power instead of Voldemort's?

6. In Book 3, they say "Voldemort's been in hiding for 15 years"...but Harry's only 13. So he's been in hiding for 2 years BEFORE he lost power...hiding from who? The man who wants to kill him, of course, and replace him as Top Lord.

7. Dumbledore is an old English word for "bumblebee"...which dies if it stings you. *Ahem*...Dumbledore just died...he's left his sting behind somewhere....

8. "He's spending his life fighting evil"....more like spending his life eradicating anyone who opposes him...because if no one else knows he's evil, then him beating the current evil genius makes him look like a hero, not someone who's just gained the power and respect (in a good OR bad way) of his peers...



Of course, let's not forget all the previous arguments of:

a. Triumphant look in his eye when Voldemort returns

b. "Merely taking your life wouldn't satisfy me, I admit."

c. "...emerged with Umbridge, unscathed"

d. Allows Harry to get himself into these sticky situations, even though he has eyes and ears everywhere, including the Order

e. Doesn't come in to stop Voldemort until Harry's already weakened him, book after book

f. Wasn't the Potters' Secret-Keeper

g. Knows the full Prophecy, and discloses what he wants about it

h.. Got rid of the LAST Dark Lord

i. THE ONLY ONE VOLDEMORT FEARS!!!

j. He's using Hogwarts as a recruiting/training ground for a possible army he might be raising; 2 points of proof, it is said that Fawkes only gave 2 feathers to Ollivander, used in Harry's and Voldemort's wands. BUT, Fawkes leaves a feather behind every time it teleports or whatever. So these wand-capable feathers could possibly be used by Dumbledore to make wands to give to his new army, a group of students he has been influential with, if you will. "...[Voldemort] saw it as a useful recruiting ground, and a place where he might begin to build himself an army."

k. Master Plan: Knows only Harry can kill Voldemort, so he's molding Harry into something that can take down Voldemort, whilst knowing his weaknesses so that he himself can kill Harry, claiming Harry'd gone "mad with power" or something.

Last edited by Horntail88; 19-07-2007 at 21:44..
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Old 20-07-2007, 07:29   #27
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Re: Dumbledore is Evil

Aha - the very man that once made this suggestion to me all those years ago - a long time ago!
Well guess what HT - it's now or never and for some reason, I feel we may not be left dissapointed ...
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'Please make it stop, I know I did wrong, oh, please make it stop and i'll never, never again..'
'Don't hurt them, don't hurt then, please, please, it's my fault, hurt me instead ...'
'Please, please, please, no ... not that, not that, I'll do anything ...'

Dumbledore - HBP Pg536

'Merely taking your life would not satisfy me..'
Dumbledore - OoTP "The only one he ever feared" Pg895
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Old 20-07-2007, 09:14   #28
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Re: Dumbledore is Evil

Quote:
Originally Posted by Horntail88 View Post
What can I say? Good thoughts, everyone, and Alz, your backup has arrived.

Just a few more key points to add to that first great introductory run-through (and forgive me for not having citations in the quotes)...

1. "And I -- persuaded him -- to tell me the full story." - Albus Dumbledore

2. "Dumbledore's voice carried no hint of a threat; it sounded like a mere statement, but Fudge bristled as though Dumbledore was advancing upon him with a wand."

3. "The only one against whom I INTEND to work is Lord Voldemort. If you are against him, then we remain, Cornelius, on the same side." -- sounds a bit like he's giving Fudge the old "enemy of my enemy is my friend" line, just more discreetly...

4. He always comes in at the last moment...Book 1: Goes to London and rushes back saying "He's gone after him, hasn't he?" knowing FULL WELL that Harry has...Book 2: He sends Fawkes instead of showing his OWN face...Book 4: Doesn't try to stop Moody from taking Harry away to his office, but WAITS and comes in LATER...Book 5: Goes to the Ministry of Magic at the end to take on Voldemort...Book 6: He and Harry return whilst the Death Eaters are loose...

5. "You weren't about to commit a murder right under Albus Dumbledore's nose, for a wreck of a wizard who'd lost all of his power, were you? You'd want to be quite sure he was the bigest bully in the playground before you went back to him, wouldn't you?" -- so...Wormtail was currently leeching from Dumbledore's power instead of Voldemort's?

6. In Book 3, they say "Voldemort's been in hiding for 15 years"...but Harry's only 13. So he's been in hiding for 2 years BEFORE he lost power...hiding from who? The man who wants to kill him, of course, and replace him as Top Lord.

7. Dumbledore is an old English word for "bumblebee"...which dies if it stings you. *Ahem*...Dumbledore just died...he's left his sting behind somewhere....

8. "He's spending his life fighting evil"....more like spending his life eradicating anyone who opposes him...because if no one else knows he's evil, then him beating the current evil genius makes him look like a hero, not someone who's just gained the power and respect (in a good OR bad way) of his peers...



Of course, let's not forget all the previous arguments of:

a. Triumphant look in his eye when Voldemort returns

b. "Merely taking your life wouldn't satisfy me, I admit."

c. "...emerged with Umbridge, unscathed"

d. Allows Harry to get himself into these sticky situations, even though he has eyes and ears everywhere, including the Order

e. Doesn't come in to stop Voldemort until Harry's already weakened him, book after book

f. Wasn't the Potters' Secret-Keeper

g. Knows the full Prophecy, and discloses what he wants about it

h.. Got rid of the LAST Dark Lord

i. THE ONLY ONE VOLDEMORT FEARS!!!

j. He's using Hogwarts as a recruiting/training ground for a possible army he might be raising; 2 points of proof, it is said that Fawkes only gave 2 feathers to Ollivander, used in Harry's and Voldemort's wands. BUT, Fawkes leaves a feather behind every time it teleports or whatever. So these wand-capable feathers could possibly be used by Dumbledore to make wands to give to his new army, a group of students he has been influential with, if you will. "...[Voldemort] saw it as a useful recruiting ground, and a place where he might begin to build himself an army."

k. Master Plan: Knows only Harry can kill Voldemort, so he's molding Harry into something that can take down Voldemort, whilst knowing his weaknesses so that he himself can kill Harry, claiming Harry'd gone "mad with power" or something.


Biased reading at its best........ wow..... i praise the imagination and suggest that your get yourself admitted to st Mungos for some calming remedies....

WOW..... I think debate over your statements is not even an option........
see you on the other side of the book, with a hope, that DD wont be so Evil then.
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Old 20-07-2007, 11:02   #29
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Re: Dumbledore is Evil

However she ends this, it is pure genius how she has written it so that it could end so many different ways. She has sure given everyone the gift of being able to use their own imaginations to the fullest with this series. And for that, no matter how this ends, every one of us who had the two years to sit and think and write our own ending are winners.
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