Chamber of Secrets - Tying Things Together

Fortescue

Totally Potterfied!
jasonburden said:
Reading the second book, I just realizes something.

Ok, first off 500 years added to 1492(reference to death day party), means that on October 31, 1992 or what ever the last two digits were, was the year that the second book took place in. So Harrys second year was in that year, meaning that in his fifth year, it would be 95, so his last year would be 97. He would be the class of 97(That is if I got the last two digits right)

Don't know if this has been mentioned but this is another one of those time problems with the books - a plot hole if you will. In SS/PS:

"'That does look good,' said the ghost in the ruff sadly, watching Harry cut up his steak.
'Can't you -?'
'I haven't eaten for nearly four hundred years,' said the ghost.'" (SS/PS pg. 123)

Nick said he hadn't eaten in nearly four hundred years, yet the following year in CoS, he had his five hundredth-death day party? Either there's a plot hole, or Nick actually did eat for over a hundred years after he died :D :p
 

Fortescue

Totally Potterfied!
jasonburden said:
Reading the second book, I just realizes something.

Ok, first off 500 years added to 1492(reference to death day party), means that on October 31, 1992 or what ever the last two digits were, was the year that the second book took place in. So Harrys second year was in that year, meaning that in his fifth year, it would be 95, so his last year would be 97. He would be the class of 97(That is if I got the last two digits right)

Don't know if this has been mentioned but this is another one of those time problems with the books - a plot hole if you will. In SS/PS:

"'That does look good,' said the ghost in the ruff sadly, watching Harry cut up his steak.
'Can't you -?'
'I haven't eaten for nearly four hundred years,' said the ghost. (SS/PS pg. 123)

Nick said he hadn't eaten in nearly four hundred years, yet the following year in CoS, he had his five hundredth death day party? Either there's a plot hole, or Nick actually did eat for over a hundred years after he died :D :p


Blaise said:
Given how rare a gift parselmouth is - I would have thought Salazar was quite smug that he had it under a lock and key.
Not only would someone have to find it - but then that person must be able to speak parselmouth and then contend with the basilisk.
I think given just those obsticles - just anyone wouldnt stand a chance and that is the things we know about that was down there.

It might have been ideal for Salazar Slytherin if he was an animagus and could turn into a snake, but I wonder why anyone would want to go back down there anyway, really. Considering they have to slide down what seemed like miles of sewer pipes to get to the chamber, I can't imagine it would be a popular place to go. Maybe there's another way in and out, but sliding down the gunky pipe in Moaning Myrtles bathroom doesn't sound very appealing :D
 

jburden

/**}\ 1st Renegade /**}\
The pipes can be cleaned using magic...easily of anything.

And now about the COS...

If indeed there are magics about it, that means there are other "pathways" hidden to the normal eye. So maybe voldy did indeed leave some device there so he could return.

what startles me though...is what happens if he IS hidding there, right benth hogwarts? maybe he is currently in the grounds, in COS through some other way, and is using these "hidden rooms" to perform magic that will enable him to get immortal once more.
 

Fortescue

Totally Potterfied!
I guess one thing that I never thought of until just now; now that Dumbledore knows where the chamber is he doesn't need to slide down the pipe. All he'd need to do is turn into his animagus form if it's smaller than his human form. He could then alohamora the locked doors and wouldn't need a parselmouth along.
 

kashlie

afraid of my own shadow
Just a step back to whether the Chamber will be in HBP or not...

JKR actually says on her site 'the story of 'Prince' takes off where 'Phoenix' ended and does not hark back to four years previously. True, mention is made to events that happened in 'Chamber', but of course, mention is also made of events that happened in'Stone', 'Azkaban', 'Goblet' and 'Phoenix'... 'the link I mentioned between books two and six does not, in fact, relate to the 'Half-Blood Prince'...Rather, it relates to a discovery Harry made in 'Chamber' that foreshadows something that he finds out in 'Prince'. (FAQs answer)

So, what I gather from this, is that the Chamber itself won't be used in HBP, but something Harry discovered THAT YEAR will be. And this discovery doesn't relate to the Prince itself, but to something Harry finds out in his 6th year. This broadens the possibilities immensely, so what I now have to do, is research just what discoveries Harry made about himself, and the people and events around him, that need to be expanded!
 

Alz

Administrator
Staff member
I'm gonna hate myself for saying this - but having just studied that chapter at lenght - the main thing I could think of would be the whole Gryffindor sword event ...
We know Harry was knocked on the head while doing the exact opposit of being a Gryffindor (cowering in the Sorting Hat!!) by Godric sword - and we are later told only a true Gryffindor could have got it ... so yah ... urghhhhhhhh

The main emphasis of that chapter from my reading was to deliver a lot of details about the past - from the great Salazar making it - Riddle finding/seeing it - Voldemort emerging - the sacrifice of Lily to save her son ...
There was a great deal of Fawkes and Red/Gold comments made as well ... I think I noted them in my CbyC submission ...
 

Fortescue

Totally Potterfied!
Oh, Blaise dear....don't sound so sad that the obvious just won't go away :rolleyes: (not saying I told you so at all...no... and I did like your CbyC). It does seem to fit the speculation about Gryffindor. I won't say anything more. :rolleyes:

As for your remark about how Harry was cowering under the Sorting Hat when the sword hit him - it could be that his fear of dying at the hands of the memory of Tom Riddle was enough to make Gryffindor's sword appear from the Sorting Hat. (which previously belonged to Godric Gryffindor as well,) It was Harry's unwavering loyalty to Dumbledore that made Fawkes appear and bring him the hat. The Sorting Hat gave Harry the sword without saying a word in his mind, all the while Harry was pleading, ‘help me,’ (the other two times Harry wore the hat it spoke to him - could this be a clue?) and Fawkes’ phoenix song gave Harry courage. (I wonder if the sorting hat is actually the memory or essence of Gryffindor and speaks in his voice in the same way as the portraits in Dumbledore’s office.)

You never know with JKR, she might just swing to the left and fool us all. :D
 

Alz

Administrator
Staff member
Call it what you want - he was cowering in the presence of something that represents bravery - not sure that was all Godric had in mind for his great heir and all ;)
As I said I studied that chapter in depth and just found a lot of references to Godric/Gryffindor in there - all the reds and silvers plus the Fawkes/Sword moments - it just stuck in my mind a great deal.
I suppose we found out a lot about how the young Riddle felt then as now and also how he came across the chamber and more important his own questions on why he died that night when his own arrogance screamed that baby Harry should have been no more.
Interesting chapter over all that one - might be a good idea for us all to give it a shot and see what else we can see in there ... ?
 

Fortescue

Totally Potterfied!
Blaise said:
Call it what you want - he was cowering in the presence of something that represents bravery - not sure that was all Godric had in mind for his great heir and all ;)
As I said I studied that chapter in depth and just found a lot of references to Godric/Gryffindor in there - all the reds and silvers plus the Fawkes/Sword moments - it just stuck in my mind a great deal.
I suppose we found out a lot about how the young Riddle felt then as now and also how he came across the chamber and more important his own questions on why he died that night when his own arrogance screamed that baby Harry should have been no more.
Interesting chapter over all that one - might be a good idea for us all to give it a shot and see what else we can see in there ... ?

Rereading CoS I came across something that clicked with this thread:

From the chapter Cornelius Fudge

"However," said Dumbledore, speaking very slowly and clearly so that none of them could miss a word, "you will find that I will only truly have left this school when none here are loyal to me. You will also find that help will always be given at Hogwarts to those who ask for it."

For a second, Harry was almost sure Dumbledore's eyes flickered toward the corner where he and Ron stood hidden. (CoS, pg 253, 54)

The bold print clearly shows how it was that Harry got Godric Gryffindors sword out of the Sorting Hat - all he did was ask for help, ("help me, help me").

And from the next chapter: Aragog

Harry constantly repeated Dumbledore's final words to himself "I will only truly have left this school when none here are loyal to me ... Help will always be given at Hogwarts to those who ask for it." But what good were these words? Who exactly were they supposed to ask for help, when everyone was just as confused and scared as they were? (CoS, pg 266)

It seems that Dumbledore's statement was almost like a charm he placed on anyone who showed loyalty to him while he was gone;

"speaking very slowly and clearly so that none of them could miss a word,"

I don't think this was done just so his words could be understood, but more as if he was casting a charm - and Harry's reward for showing his loyalty and asking for help was getting Gryffindor's sword when he needed it in the Chamber.


(I surprise myself sometimes) :D :D
 

Alz

Administrator
Staff member
Dumbledore was - as emphasised in the film - making an indirect point to Harry that he would always be there to help him no matter ...
There is no charm etc - he was in a audience with others I believe and just wanted to make a clear point to Harry that he will be there to help - it is so blatant!
Harry was panicked and worried, he knew he needed help and as such he thought and muttered as such ... then we know what happened.
The fact remains JKR made the point he was cowering away ;)
Dumbledore, in my mind, sent Fawkes and the Hat into the chamber to help Harry ... knowing what could be acheived with both ....
It is almost emphasised when Riddle jokes that as Harry asks for help from his great Defender, Dumbledore, he sends him a song bird and an old hat ... ;)
Touche mon ami :D
 

Fortescue

Totally Potterfied!
When Fawkes appeared in the chamber, he didn't follow Harry's path through Moaning Myrtles bathroom, but simply appeared,

"flames erupted at the top of the nearest pillar.
A crimson bird the size of a swan had appeared, piping its weird music to the vaulted ceiling. "

If Dumbledore could simply send Fawkes to Harry's aid, why then couldn't he have sent Fawkes to find the chamber before?

I think Fawkes was called because of Harry's words of loyalty to Dumbledore, not sent by Dumbledore himself. Both Fawkes and the Sorting Hat were in Dumbledore's office - yet Dumbledore was not at Hogwarts, and when he did return he was in Professor McGonagall's office as that was where Mr. and Mrs. Weasley was since McGonagall was the head of Gryffindor house and the logical place for the Weasley's to go when they found out their daughter was taken into the chamber. If Dumbledore had been at Hogwarts when Fawkes went to Harry, I'd think that the Weasley's and McGonagall would have been in his office.

If what Dumbledore said about always giving help when it was asked for was not a charm, then Fawkes's appearance in the chamber was simply to do with Harry's loyalty to Dumbledore. In the same way that Fawkes is loyal to Dumbledore. The fact that Tom again underestimated something that he thought was unimportant, "the songbird and old hat," was another example of his character flaw and his repeated lack of thought in other situations later in the story. It's as if he is too secure in his power to think about the big picture.

As for Harry's cowering in the presence of the basilisk; I can't imagine any one else, regardless of age, who was weaponless, facing a giant and deadly snake would be expected to act in any other way when death was inevitable; Gryffindor or not. :p
 

Alz

Administrator
Staff member
Fawkes was able to get to the Chamber because Harry was in there - it gave him a signal as such to lock onto and follow ...
Until Ginny entered - there was no person in the Chamber for 50 years - and thus Dumbledore couldnt have Fawkes go find it :rolleyes:
The fact that Fawkes and the Hat were in Dumbledore's office screams more proof that Dumbledore sent them to aid Harry - because he would always be around to help those that ask for it!

Harry and co - after they left the Chamber - went to McGonagall's office because Fawkes lead them there - because once again he knew that was where the Weasley's and indeed Dumbledore now were ...
There is no saying Dumbledore had to call Fawkes out loud - in fact there is support - even in your statement that communication between the 2 could happen at a different level - so the exact location of Dumbledore remains irrelevant to the argument.

.. and my last comment on the cowering Potter - I was making a statement from my initial post that the Great and Brave Godric must have felt a little dissapointed that his final heir - the person to embody him and his work - used a hat to hide - instead of use his brain to find a way to escape or fight ;)
 

jburden

/**}\ 1st Renegade /**}\
if you have no fear, you are stupid.

if you have fear, and go against it, it is what is called bravery

if you cower before fear, luck might be the best for you

but if you cower, and luck does not find you, your a dead pig....


that is all i have to say....except that perhaps it was kinda odd wasnt it?

why would you, of all things, want to wear a HAT in the middle of fear hmm? why the hat? seriously! he would try to turn from it, not hid under a stupid hat!!!

there was something at the moment which, in fear, told harry to go for the hat. and guess what comes out? the sword. It was not from cowering he went under the hat, because he would have bound to not even think of the hat if he were to to be cowering. but something in him told that he get teh hat...therefore meaning in a way, he was BRave because he still had to guts to even think of the hat in the first place.
 

Alz

Administrator
Staff member
Urgh - gosh I feel like I am pulling teeth on this one!
OK - just to recap and re-iterate one last time ...
I merely making the point that indeed if young Potter was the heir of Gryffindor - then Godric must have thought what the heck was going on that the last person to show the bravery that became his trademark was found scrambling under a piece of cloth rather than looking at ways he could escape or take on the basilisk.
Just from a visual point of view it amuses me - this image is a huge great snake and this little boy pulling a hat over his head - reminds me of Willie Coyote and Road Runner when a rock is about to fall on his head and he puts up an umbrella ... :D
 

Kingsley

Time Turners
I thought movie and Tv references was my job ;)

I agree though--it would be a little embarassing from beyond to see your heir hiding in a corner with a hat and his eyes closed

Btw, having no fear does not make you stupid :cool:
 

jburden

/**}\ 1st Renegade /**}\
it does...because with fear, there is no bravery....


Its just stupidity that you, having no fear, will go and do something you are not afraid of. Its like walking off the bridge because you have no fear.....thats just stupid xd
 

Fortescue

Totally Potterfied!
To review the scene from the book:

Harry was running along the wall with his eyes closed so as not to look in the basilisks eyes, which would mean instant death. He tripped and fell on the floor. As the snake approached, and as Tom Riddle was ordering it to kill Harry, Harry, who has no other hope as even though the basilisk is blinded, in Tom's words, it can still smell Harry.

Harry lays on the floor saying help me, help me, as the basilisk is about to strike, and what happens? In answer to Harry's plea for help the thrashing basilisk hits the Sorting Hat with its tail and flings it straight into Harry's face. Since the hat is by no means a weapon, and it has spoken to Harry on two other occasions, and he was feeling rather alone and defenseless as any twelve year old boy would under the circumstances, he places the hat on his head, and again, says help me, help me. We all know what happened after that.

Maybe in the great Gryffindor's eyes he thought that Harry's act of bravery at even attempting to enter the chamber to face the, at the time unknown, monster and rescue Ginny was enough to forgive any lack of bravery that might occur, thus he gave Harry the Sorting Hat, (Gryffindor's old hat) and the ruby encrusted sword, (Gryffindor's old sword) carried to Harry by Fawkes, a bird the same color as those that represent Gryffindor House. It's possible that Fawkes once belonged to Godric Gryffindor. Maybe that's were Gryffindor got the colors for Gryffindor House, and why Harry has such a connection to Fawkes.
 

jburden

/**}\ 1st Renegade /**}\
Kinda odd how the hat if flung at harry aint it?

even in the midst of fear...at least he had the guts to put the hat on. I mean...would you put YOUR hat on if he talked to you, if you were afraid?

I should say that many of us might be frozen on the spot, not being able to do anything....even catching the hat in the first place, or even reaching for it....
 
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