For the greater good (SPOILIERS!!)

[anthony]

well, when i head i it took me back a littel bit.

i am a big history buff, and for the sake of this thread
well adversed in the history of WW2.
now assuming that this is a site for older fans i will not give a history lesson
but i will note the following comparisons in WW2 to the 1930's - 1940's wizarding world.

Hitler = Grindelwald
the final soloution = for the greater goodthe final soloution
Auschwitz/internment= Nurmengard
muggles= jews

also a small tie in between reality and HP, as well as hitlers genocide of the jews he also persucuted the Gypseys who were commonly belived to be ancient practioners of magic, was kinda wounder if that would be touched upon in HP by grindelwalds hatred of mudbloods??

and also a few ties to nazism and the curent world of HP & DH

muggle born registration = jewish registration
pure blood = aryian race
Snatchers = nazi death squads
death eaters = SS
voldermort = hitler
bellatrix = Herman Goring
fall of ministry = krystal notch (sp?)
muggle propraganda = jewish propaganda

there are a few more that slip my mind, ill fill them in latter.
so any thoughts or contributions??

BTW!!

i am 100% anti nazi, anti hitler ect.
i just know a lot of history and thought i would share the
comparisons. so again i would not like anyone to get the wrong oppinion of me or anything like that (seriously i love everyone and everything, well mabe i dont love that littel line of dust that is impossible to sweep up )

later, anthony

 

[Sir Cadogan]

Hi anthony,

I agree with a number of parallels that you point out, except for two that really don't work, in my opinion.

[...]Auschwitz/internment= Nurmengard
bellatrix = Herman Goring[...]

I think the parallel to Nurmengard is Nuremberg - the German city where the trials against the war criminals took place.
After all, it's not muggles who are imprisoned in Nurmengard, it's Grindelwald.

And the strangely attractive Bellatrix just doesn't match the bulgy, fat "Reichsmarschall".

 

[Piper]

JKR actually said she was drawing parallels once. That the timeline etc wasn't a coincidence, and she said that she was chilled to learn that under Hitler, even having one grandparent that was Jewish put you on the list. I am certain that she meant Numengard/Auschwitz, because Grindewald was imprisoned there AFTER his defeat. Before that I think she meant that muggles were imprisoned there.

I think it was definately Grindewald that she was comparing to Hitler, and the things that happened during his reign, not Voldemort.

I am not sure where she was going with Voldemort because she didn't really show us a character that really gave a flip one way or another who someones parents were. He gave Lily the choice to live and regarded Snape as highly as any of his other death eaters, actually more highly than some, even though I didn't get the sense that it was a big secret that Snapes father was a muggle.

Now Umbridge definately had the Hitler mindset.

 

[anthony]

Nurmengard was a prison built by grindelwald to hold peole
and JKR put a littel irony by having him end up in his own prison.

i draw the bella comparison to a lutienent in the nazi regime
such as goering, the head military comander.

if you guys do not feel that it is a strong enough comparison, i'll remove it.

P.S.

i would find the in text reference to nurmegard but, 750pgs is a lot to find stuff in.

 

[Sir Cadogan]

Nurmengard was a prison built by grindelwald to hold peole
and JKR put a littel irony by having him end up in his own prison.

Thanks for pointing that out - I just remembered that Voldemort found him there. But now I've looked up where it occurs (towards the end of ch. 18), and, wow, you are most certainly right.

'For the Greater Good' became Grindelwald's slogan, his justification for all the atrocities he committed later. And . . . from that . . . it looks like Dumbledore gave him the idea. They say 'For the Greater Good' was even carved over the entrance to Nurmengard."
"What's Nurmengard?"
"The prison Grindelwald had built to hold his opponents. He ended up in there himself, once Dumbledore had caught him."

This is a clear echo of the twisted and evil irony which showed in the Nazi motto "Arbeit macht frei" (work sets you free) set over the entrance of Auschwitz.

i draw the bella comparison to a lutienent in the nazi regime
such as goering, the head military comander.

Well, as regards Bellatrix's function you are right (again).

 

[happy_hannah]

i dont think jkr is re-telling history, the same genocides and atrocities are still happening today all over the world. jkr has said that what happens in the magic world reflects in the muggle world (with the grindelwald/hitler thing). i think that the themes in the book are better compared with whats going on in the 21st century. I have already started a thread on this, it is in my opinion that voldemort and his death eaters can be more easily compared to terrorists. if your interested the thread is called 'magic world vs muggle world'

 

[anthony]

well in response,

with the proper paradime shift, you can move from a terroist comparison to an american government comparison.

might pop in to discuss that (patriot act, ect.)

but, never the less agreed, atrocites happen all the time: sadam, kim jong ill, fighting in darfur.

 

[Horntail88]

First of all, you did a MARVELOUS job drawing historic references to that!! I tip my hat to you, sir...

The only thing I can even think of adding at this moment would be (and I know this is obvious) that the D.A. is the Allied Powers, with Harry Ron and Hermoine as the "Big Three" (U.K., U.S., and U.S.S.R.). You could even consider Roosevelt's "The Four Policemen" if you consider Ginny to be China.

 

[anthony]

You could even consider Roosevelt's "The Four Policemen" if you consider Ginny to be China.

well Mr. longbottom will always hold a special place in my heart as china

yeah that reffernce totaly slipped my mind, i'll put it in.

also i have always thought the ministry treated gobblins and centaurs in a subserviant manor (was really hoping to see resoloution in that??)

 

[Piper]

I fear that in dealing with terrorism we have ended up taking the same approach as Voldemort took with the prophecy and Harry, and are ending up giving them more power than they would have ever had if we had just ignored them. Close to 6 years after 9/11 there do not seem to be fewer of them, and the amount of money that we owe Ginny/Neville sure seems to have grown considerably.

And what are we giving up IE the Patroit Act in the name of The Greater Good?

 

[anthony]

i feel in dealing with terrorism, we have taken a ministry of magic approach
make everything look ok when we havent got a clue as to whats going on.

for example:

fales inprisonments
wiretapping (the trace)
propaganda (w/ harry)

so idk thats my 2 cents

P.S. dont worry when Ginny/Neville take over, the will be benevolent rulers

 

[Horntail88]

And what are we giving up IE the Patroit Act in the name of The Greater Good?

The Patriot Act takes away many civil liberties. It is in violation of at least 7 Constitutional amendments. Off the top of my head, they have the right to Search & Seize without a warrant, they can spy on us (wiretapping), capture ANYONE (U.S. citizen or not) if they "believe" they have connections to terrorism WITHOUT giving evidence (bypasses the writ of Habeas Corpus), and when caught, they can hold them in jail as long as they want, no bail, no trial.

If you want more information, let me know, I've studied the Patriot Act heavily because it was the C-X Debate resolution 2 years ago. My partner and I went to State with ours.

 

[Piper]

Oh I think the Bush/Voldemort (Definate Horcrux Reference here, no Cardiologist is this good folks) administration knows exactly what they are doing, making kazillions of dollars. Congress and the Senate remind me most of the MoM with their only concern being to stay in power. I doubt if many of them are still even able to see their images in the mirror.

I think I know about all that I can stomach about the Patroit Act. The detainee treatment Act also sickened me to no end. I just keep wondering where our Order of the Phoenix is......

 

[anthony]

I think I know about all that I can stomach about the Patroit Act. The detainee treatment Act also sickened me to no end. I just keep wondering where our Order of the Phoenix is......

well ever since the secret keeper was watter boarded in to revealing there location, the morale has been kinda low

in regaurds to the patriot act, i have always woundred why the wizarding world is indeed so disregaurding of wizards civil liberties??

 

[Piper]

Maybe Scooter Libby is an accidental Horcrux