Going Pale?

Alz

Administrator
Staff member
HBP The Seer Overheard pg548 US said:
Dumbledore's expression did not change, but Harry thought his face whitened under the bloody tinge cast by the setting sun ...

HBP The Seer Overheard pg549 US said:
Dumbledore did not speak for a moment; he looked as though he was trying to make up his mind about something. At last he said "I am sure. I trust Severus Snape completely".

Questions galore and maybe a tinge of DiE ...
When Dumbledore realised Harry knew Snape was the catalyst in the chain of events - he goes almost white ...

Harry pushed Dumbledore on why he trust Snape - notice Dumbledore seemed to be weighing something up - like the real reason he trusts him - then thinks better of it and resorts back to the I trust him completely spiele ...

Why would he be so worried, so shocked that he would turn pale when Harry found out - and why didnt he tell him the real truth - it was there in his mind - but he didnt ...

What is it about that trust that seems to make Dumbledore want to conceal it from Harry?
 

kashlie

afraid of my own shadow
Some kind of life debt comes to mind when I think about that. Now even a UV.

I imagine that if Dumbledore and Snape had planned for Snape to kill him when the time came, he was not about to tell Harry that. Harry would not want that to happen and would probably try to stop it.
It would also unbalance Snape's position with Voldemort if he had to try and explain to Harry why he had to kill Dumbledore, and if Snape had to fight Harry as well...

Okay, what I mean is that perhaps revealing the real reason he trusts Snape, would set off a chain reaction of events that would spoil Dumbledore's plans...
 
Perhaps he paused for a moment to debate how much he should tell Harry. It is well known that there is hatrid between Snape and Harry, and Harry spent most of the year trying to convince everyone of conspiracy theories of Malfoy. I think Dumbledore may not have wanted to fuel the fire.
 

Nimue

Up to no good...
I think its too difficult to ascertain what exactly was going through Dumbledore's mind almost at any point in the HP series. The only character as mysterious as DD, at least in my mind, is Snape.

Not to shut down any speculation, god knows I do it enough myseslf, but I think there are a lot of things we're not going to understand until book seven and probably some stuff we'll never understand. I want--as much as anyone--to believe that there is some underlying sceme. That DD died with purpose--but I can't know that.

(oh how I wish I could)
 

Alz

Administrator
Staff member
Dumbledore once said to Harry that he would never lie to him - but also there are some things he couldnt know just yet.
We figured by OoTP that the time had come - Dumbledore said he was going to tell Harry everything.
So why - why did he pause, think about the obvious reason why he trusted Snape - then just decided to come back with the usual excuse he gives?
Harry was clearly in some distress at the news he just heard - Dumbledore knew Harry would react this way - but I cant help but feel there is a reason someone goes white - with shock or fear - and the fact that he debated the point in his head and then fed Harry the usual line just smacks of concealment of something very important.
 

Sirius Potter Fan

Night Patroll
I agree, Dumbledore was keeping something significant from Harry. But I also note, that in falling back on the "old standby" he did not lie to Harry, thus continuing to keep his word, something you don't see too many "evil" people do ;) I think that Dumbledore held back because the "real" reason, (most likely Snape's feelings for Lily.) he knew would take a bit of explaining, and woud only confuse and upset Harry even more, and he needed him to go with him and find the Horcrux.
 

Alz

Administrator
Staff member
But see Dumbledore turning white - that just seems, well out of character for him.
I mean we are still to find out the real reason Dumbledore trusted Snape - but he must really trust him to have concealed that it was Snape that set the events in motion so to speak.
So, when Harry comes in and tells Dumbledore what he knows - he goes white ... that could be in shock or even fear but it is an extreme reaction.
But worse of all for you DiG people - when he had what represented to be the best reason and chance to tell Harry it all about why he trust Snape - he once again shrugs Harry off.
Now why is that?
What is it about this real reason that makes Dumbledore so unwilling to tell and also him so edgy around Harry?
 

christina

Time Turners
well maybe dd was ashamed of the reason of y he trusts snape and he didnt want harry to kno cuz it mite cause harry to go into one of his tantrums. dd would go white cuz he remembers why he trusts snape or hes ashamed to tell or hes scared to reveal y. . . . o well thats sorta already been sed. . .
 

Alz

Administrator
Staff member
..and if Dumbledore is ashamed of the reasons he trusts Snape - to the point he panicks when Harry finds out - then he doesnt want Harry to know ... and if he doesnt want Harry to know - then we have to assume something big is going on at this point!
I still believe Dumbledore, knowing his end was coming, could, would and should have used this moment to fill Harry in - but he ducks it again ...
Why ooohh why would Dumbledore be so loathed to answer that question if he was the very personification of goodness and white ;)
 

Lovegood54

Luna's Biggest Fan!
you know, dumbledore doesnt seem to have told anyone why he trusts Snape. mcgonagal says it when she hears that Snape killde Dumbledore!

"He always hinted that he had an ironclad reason for trusting Snape," muttered Professor McGonagall, now dabbing at the corners of her leaking eyes with a tartan-edged handkerchief. "I mean....with Snape's history...of course people were bound to wonder...but Dumbledore wouldn't hear a word against!" --Professor McGonnagall, HBP

this makes me wonder if Dumbledore ever told anyone why he trusted Snape. i recently finished reading the book again, and had this idea: Maybe Snape Confunded Dumbledore into thinking he had changed sides? it would explain why he takes a few moments before replying to harry's question of why he trusts snape: He (Dumbledore) was trying to figure out the reason himself, but since he was confunded he couldnt think of any reason why and just regurgites the answer he was confunded to believe "...I trust Snape completely." its a wild theory, but for everyone who wants to believe that Snape is evil, its a good one (though i'm not sure if i am the first person to come up with this theory) and if you don't want to believe Dumbledore could be confunded, well.... but thats a topic for another day.
 

secret seeker

The Half Blood Prince
I think Dumbledore never expected Harry to find it was Snape who overheard the first half of the prophecy, it was pure shock and amazement to hear Harry blurt it out to him, Dumbledore certainly has kept stuff from Harry, but, even when watching Harry he has always tried to let Harry do his own achievements, his own learning, forced Harry to confront his own fears and inadequecies without butting in.
Dumbledore aint evil, it would be completely out of character, and at the last book, with Dumbledore dead, what would be the point of changing it now?...
If he were evil, then who would Harry aspire to?....:)
 

halliemei

Time Turners
I agree with secret seeker on one thing - I think the going white of Dumbledore (besides his name) is because he didn't expect Harry to find out. He'd worked very hard to not let Harry know, so it would certainly be a shock. As to why he hesitated and didn't tell Harry the story - I think that's the million galleon question here. There is something that Dumbledore apparently never told anyone about why he trusts Snape. I wish I knew what it was -- I lean toward an UV, myself. Perhaps that's why Dumbledore didn't tell Harry - it was his part of the vow - but it was an ideal time. The fact that he apparently never told anyone makes it more mysterious.

I also think that Dumbledore reacted the way he did about Harry's news was because he knows how much Harry hates Snape. This would simply give him MORE reason to hate Snape. Dumbledore's fear was for Harry to shut down on him and not trust him anymore. Perhaps what the truth is is bad enough that it would have done that for Harry. I think either that or the pause was Dumbledore himself considering whether he could be wrong. I wonder if he was??????
 

secret seeker

The Half Blood Prince
Dumbledore wasn't stupid. FACT. The saying of Dumbledore's; "I can make mistakes like the next man, Harry " was Jo's way of reinforcing humanity, and fallability, to the near omnipitence of Dumbledore's character. She uses the H.B.P. to show some of Dumbledore's mistakes ( Not going with Tom to Diagon alley, stopping him for good in his office, his withered hand, etc ).
This was intentionly done to unsettle your pre-conceptions about his judgement and, more importantly, his friendship and trust placed in Snape. ( and after chapter 2, you are immedietly distrustful of Snape, again intentional )
We are proved right at the end of the book, that Dumbledore's judgement was flawed and our pre-conceptions of Dumbledore's reliability are gone. " He's not perfect ", is what we are left to believe, however Dumbledore wasn't stupid, (again) he was the greatest wizard for many reasons and one would be his INTEGRITY, he wouldn't have trust Snape unless he had a concrete reason, one we are un-aware of. When he was making up his mind, after being asked again by Harry; " do you really trust Snape? " he was trying to think of any way Snape could have him tricked, and knowing that there was no way of doing that, ( for some unknown reason ) he answered quickly. He wasn't foolish for giving the usual reply, he knew something we didn't.
Book 7 cue.........:eek:
 

halliemei

Time Turners
In light of that last post, here's a question:

ES: I know Dumbledore likes to see the good in people but he seems trusting almost to the point of recklessness sometimes.

[Laughter]

JKR: Yes, I would agree. I would agree.

ES: How can someone so -

JKR: Intelligent -

ES: - be so blind with regard to certain things?

JKR: Well, there is information on that to come, in seven. But I would say that I think it has been demonstrated, particularly in Books 5 and 6 that immense brainpower does not protect you from emotional mistakes, and I think Dumbledore really exemplifies that. In fact, I would tend to think that being very, very intelligent might create some problems and it has done for Dumbledore, because his wisdom has isolated him, and I think you can see that in the books, because where is his equal; where is his confidante; where is his partner? He has none of those things. He's always the one who gives; he's always the one who has the insight and has the knowledge. So I think that, while I ask the reader to accept that McGonagall is a very worthy second-in-command, she is not an equal. You have a slightly circuitous answer, but I can't get much closer than that.

ES: No, that was a good answer.
- from the Mugglenet/Leaky interview immediately following book 6.

So is it possible that this is Dumbledore's BIG mistake?
 

secret seeker

The Half Blood Prince
Possibly a big mistake, but she held back on something at the end.....just wondering what.......although Dumbledore can be wrong, J.K.r didn't actually say he was wrong in trusting Snape, she just said that he too can make mistakes?.........Been wondering, read page 302/03 ( uk ) H.B.P. again and see Snape and Draco in an empty classroom, try to imagine it as Dumbledore under polyjuice talking to Malfoy ( not snape ) it sounds just like Dumbledore, I think!........
 
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Alz

Administrator
Staff member
When someone goes pale in that kind of situation, you really have to wonder why the heck ... I mean it wasn't too much of a killer point was it - and the paleness was backed up by yet again Dumbledore refusing to level with Harry as to why he trusts him ... people, Dumbledore told Harry he would not lie to him, told Harry he would tell him everything ... yet he cant or wont explain this to Harry ...
That my friends is what you need to think about here ... toy with here ... try and understand here why Dumbledore still refused to level with Harry ...
Dumbledore has told Harry he trust Snape and believes he is good after he transfered back to the good side and turned spy - sure Harry could be pissed that Dumbledore wasnt exactly implict with the truth ... but when all the pieces fit right - Dumbledore doesnt tell Harry the truth ...
Why is that - what could be so bad that he doesnt want Harry to find out - or more importantly he doesnt want to be the one to tell Harry?
 

Lovegood54

Luna's Biggest Fan!
but here is the hole in your discussion, Alz: Dumbledore seems to have refused to tell ANYONE why he trusts Snape. Remember what McGonagall said:

"'Snape,' repeated McGonagll faintly, falling into a chair. 'We all wondered...but he trusted...always...Snape...I can't believe it....' ... 'He always hinted that he had an ironclad reason for trusting Snape,' muttered Professor McGonagall, now dabbing at the corners of her leaking eyes with a tartan-edged handkerchief, 'I mean...with Snape's history...of course people were bound to wonder...but Dumbledore told me explicitly that Snape's repentance was absolutlely genuine...Wouldn't hear a word against him!'"

which leads me to believe that Dumbledore never told ANYONE why he believed Snape to have changed sides. and if you think about how the ministry was when Snape allegedly changed sides (which was BEFORE Voldemort fell, mind you) it was like Dumbledor ecould do no wrong (keeping in mind this is a time when ministry was not against DUmbledore in the slightest, but actually wanted him to be minister of magic). these things in mind, i can picture Dumbledore going in front of the court and saying: "I believe Snape to have changed sides, and i am willing to lay my life on the line to defend that. I trust Snape completely" and sitting down, and the whole court agreeing and calling it a day, with out any evidence at all! so, Dumbledore probably didnt tell ANYONE why he believed Snape innocent, and just said "I trust Snape completely" to anyone who asked.
 

Alz

Administrator
Staff member
You could be right - no-one apart from Snape and Dumbledore know why the trust exisits - in fact that looks almost certain ... when Dumbledore was officially challenged on the subject by the MoM in the pensive - he just said he trusted Severus completly and left it like that - and what seemed strange is no-one challenged him then as well ...

Going back on-topic slightly - whatever this was, Dumbledore has the chance to tell Harry but didnt ... now given all the gory parts of Snape where now exposed .. as in Harry now knows Snape was the eavesdropper - what else could there be that Dumbledore is so adament not to discuss?
Is there more to him going white than just knowing Harry now knows Snape was the eavesdropper that set the events in motion ... I think yes ... and this would also echo the fact Dumbledore may never have told another living soul ...
 
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