Harry is a Horcrux - Lily's?

gbogbo

Time Turners
Lily's soul quite literally got in the way of the soul fragment that was supposed to go in an object?

Hmmm...

Did Harry survive the AK because Lily gave Harry her soul at the moment of his "death"? Is that what is running through Harry's veins? Is that why Harry has Lily's eyes, eyes that are the window to the soul?

Now, this is not a Horcrux per se, because Lily did not kill in order to split her soul. Rather, she made a sacrifice of her entire soul in order to save Harry. It is horcrux-like, because we now have a soul residing in a new receptacle.

This theme has been hinted on in numerous threads, but I thought I'd pull it out and let you talk amongst yourselves.
 

Sir Cadogan

Noble Heart, Steely Sinew
Definitely not.

Why should Harry need a new soul? If Harry's soul was destroyed through the AK curse - how on earth should Lily be in a position to "donate" her soul, when she in fact was killed before Harry? Soul transfer before death? No, please ... This is too much voodoo talk for my taste.

Children having their mother's or their father's eyes is not at all an unusual expression. It just means there is a family likeness. That's all there is to it.
 

gbogbo

Time Turners
Definitely not.

Why should Harry need a new soul? If Harry's soul was destroyed through the AK curse - how on earth should Lily be in a position to "donate" her soul, when she in fact was killed before Harry? Soul transfer before death? No, please ... This is too much voodoo talk for my taste.

Children having their mother's or their father's eyes is not at all an unusual expression. It just means there is a family likeness. That's all there is to it.


Sir C (mangy cur that thou art), Lily made a choice and there was magic involved. Do I know the charm? ... absolutely not, but that doesn't negate the fact that Lily did something that night. Why is Harry alive? That is the million galleon question. A replacement soul would fit the bill perfectly. We've already got the theme of backup souls (soul fragments, actually) and soul repositories (horcruxes) running through the entire series. Why couldn't we have a similar charm, but for good reasons as opposed to evil? I don't think of that as voodoo at all. Something of Lily's is running through Harry's veins. What sort of something would that be? If you were about to be AK'd, maybe a backup / spare soul wouldn't be such a bad thing.

HBP said:
Dumbledore drank, and no sooner had he finished than he yelled "KILL ME!" (Lily Potter - presumed)

I think that is the reliving of an overheard, third-person memory of the conversation that night at Godric Hollow. It is the final voice that is heard: the critical moment. I also think that voice was Lily's, and that she had some sort of charm worked that would be fulfilled when she was killed by Voldemort, a charm that would allow her son to live. Voldemort was just about to kill Harry, but Lily, a profoundly gifted witch, knew of a charm that would protect her son if, and only if, she sacrificed herself first. Voldemort was fragmenting his soul, whereas Lily's would have been whole. Perhaps it would have been strong enough to trade places...?

Yep, I know this is wild speculation, but we've got to tide ourselves over for a few more months. ;)
 
Last edited:

Sir Cadogan

Noble Heart, Steely Sinew
Sir C (mangy cur that thou art),
hehehehe

Lily made a choice and there was magic involved. Do I know the charm? ... absolutely not, but that doesn't negate the fact that Lily did something that night. Why is Harry alive? That is the million galleon question. A replacement soul would fit the bill perfectly. We've already got the theme of backup souls (soul fragments, actually) and soul repositories (horcruxes) running through the entire series. Why couldn't we have a similar charm, but for good reasons as opposed to evil? I don't think of that as voodoo at all. Something of Lily's is running through Harry's veins.

I agree: Something of Lily's is indeed running through Harry, and I'm sure it is nothing but a mother's love for her son - which is something not to be underestimated. I always took it that JKR was trying to show in her books that some kind of worldly magic exists in our muggle world, too. And I'm sure that she as a mother would think highly of a mother's love for her child...

I know this is wild speculation, but we've got to tide ourselves over for a few more months. ;)

;-) Too wild for an old man like myself, I'm afraid. But I like speculating, too. :D
 

Sirius Potter Fan

Night Patroll
I have to admit that this sounds a little too far fetched for me as well, but as you said , what else do we have to do for the next few months? I don't think that Harry is a horcrux for anyone, whether accidental, in whole, in part, or any other way. Harry is Harry . . . And I think that is rather enough for him myself! I think it has been made fairly clear that Lilly's death is what gave Harry the protection. As with a Horcrux, if your soul continues to exist in some form on this plane, then technicaly you do not die. So that would mean that if Lily's soul lives in Harry, that she did not actualy die, so how chould she have sacrificed herself? and how could the charm on the Dursleys home work?
 

gbogbo

Time Turners
To me the question remains...why did Lily have to die? What was it about the old magic that required her death to seal the charm? I see her love for Harry as her motivation, not necessarily the magic.

Also, I used Horcrux in the thread name to antagonize. Clearly, this would be some other kind of charm, not a literal Horcrux. And, I don't think the charm that saved Harry is necessarily related to the magic that keeps Harry safe at the Dursleys.
 

Hoggy Warty Hogwarts

Outside Playing Quidditch
But would her shadow or whatever it was have come out of Voldemorts wand that night in the grave yard in GOF if he didnt kill her because its not like all the spells he used came out just the souls he took so to speak... and its like Harry said, "me..I'm just Harry, just Harry. :p
 

Sirius Potter Fan

Night Patroll
good one Hoggy! I thought of the "just Harry" quote, but didn't have time to look up the exact quote.

And gbogbo, "Why did Lily have to die?" Well I'm sure Glumbumble can come up with the exact quote, but JKR said something like - death is the ultimate sacrifice. A sacrifice of pure love. If she had not been given the chance to live the protection wouldn't have worked. She chose to die to protect her son when Voldemort gave her the chance to step away and live. It was her death that protected him. If her soul remained in Harry, she would not be dead, and based on what you were saying Harry would not be Harry, Harry would be Lily in a little boy's body.
 

Alz

Administrator
Staff member
I think I suggested this in a wild spec thread and got the same treatment ;)

I guess making Harry a horcrux would only serve to keep Lily alive, not keep Harry alive. If Harry was post mortem, then Lily was already dead - so he couldn't have made her his horcrux ... urgh that was ugly English but does it make sense?
 

Dr Winterbourne

Time Turners
In the spirit of wild speculation:

If Lily's soul was in Harry - due to a sort of Light side of the Force 'Horcrux' spell, that involve, like Jesus or Aslan, giving your life for someone - then the AK curse may well have killed a soul - Lily's - which had only moment before entered Harry. Thus, Lily would be dead, to emerge from Voldemort's wand in the graveyard, and Harry would be just Harry.

The spell is like a Horcrux of love, not of murder. Hmm, but then, if Lily's soul was blasted out of Harry by the AK curse, leaving Harry unharmed, why then did it rebound, and why couldn't Quirrell touch Harry? Well, for the first, that's just what happens with this spell - if you AK someone who is a love horcrux, then you die, and the soul is killed. It is a one use only protection. But it doesn't explain the Quirrell thing.

Edit: it does, if it is also a feature of this spell that although the soul is gone, it leaves a lingering shield of protection.
 
Last edited:

Alz

Administrator
Staff member
For 'in the interests of wild spec' genre that is pretty cool - and somewhat less confusing than my last post :p

I just don't understand how it would work in essence of being a possibility - a horcrux is made to preserve the soul of the person sealing the horcrux and not a proxy for another - this would appear to be inconsistent with what we know - but still as I pointed out nothing went the way it was suppose to during that night and thus - I am not willing to blow it out as a dead deal.

I suppose what DR was pointing out was the equal and opposite of the dark horcrux spell - as such is it not possible the opposite version could be used to sustain someone else's soul and not their own - that would be selfless sacrifice no?
 

happy_hannah

Time Turners
is a charm the same as a spell? its just when voldemort was asking slughorn about horcrux's slughorn said there was a spell but he didnt know what it was. you would think it was a curse or something
 

gbogbo

Time Turners
The spell is like a Horcrux of love, not of murder. Hmm, but then, if Lily's soul was blasted out of Harry by the AK curse, leaving Harry unharmed, why then did it rebound, and why couldn't Quirrell touch Harry? .

Maybe the Avada Kadavra curse MUST kill. Since Harry couldnh't be killed, due to his backup soul, maybe the only recourse was to have the spell backfire and "kill" Voldemort. Of course, he couldn't be killed either.

I think part of the reason why this theory rubs folks the wrong way is that I foolishly used the word horcrux. Of course, whatever charm Lily might of done would have been more like a sacrifice made out of love. The intent was entirely different than a horcrux spell. It was not about splitting her soul so as to survive, but to commit sort of a suicide so that another might live.

P.S. Welcome back Alz. Long time, no see. Invisibility cloak?
 

Alz

Administrator
Staff member
I'm still thinking to make this idea work we must have an opposite kind of Horcrux - a horcrux that causes the same kind of effect but the circumstances that bring it about are totally different and so is the desired outcome ...

Evil horcrux - have to kill someone - made to keep a piece of you alive
Good horcrux - sacrifice yourself for another - made to keep someone else alive

I think it works - well sort of ;o)
 

Sirius Potter Fan

Night Patroll
Alz said:
Good horcrux - sacrifice yourself for another - made to keep someone else alive

I think it works - well sort of ;o)
Well . . . sort of is about right :) I think it could make sense if, as with Harry, the protection lasts to a certain age, or for a certain period of time. I don't think a "good Horcrux" would give imortality, but say . . . maybe a "9 lives" type of protection.
 

cj633

Time Turners
Maybe Lily was an unspeakable and studied LOVE at the ministry. If this was the case then she would have known or have had a theory about a spell or charm that would have saved Harry from the killing curse and then protected him through his very skin.
 

Sirius Potter Fan

Night Patroll
Well, JKR has said that Lily had no foreknowledge of how things would happen. It was her reaction of Love, to protect her child even if it cost her own life that saved Harry, it was nothing that she conciously did. Voldemort had to have offered her the chance to spare her own life, which he did, and a chance to save herself is something no one would have anticipated with Voldemort.
 

Alz

Administrator
Staff member
Well, JKR has said that Lily had no foreknowledge of how things would happen. It was her reaction of Love, to protect her child even if it cost her own life that saved Harry, it was nothing that she conciously did. Voldemort had to have offered her the chance to spare her own life, which he did, and a chance to save herself is something no one would have anticipated with Voldemort.
I guess this is what makes we wonder if there is such as thing as a good horcrux, sporned from the opposit of what leads to a bad horcrux.
Lily was offered a chance to live but she wouldnt, so imagine if Voldemort was planning to use her death as a horcrux maker - if the death comes from sacrifice versus plain killing - it is possible the effect could morph right?
I mean, we know the AK at Harry morphed!
 

Sirius Potter Fan

Night Patroll
Voldemort wasn't planning on using Lily's death for a horcrux . . . or why would he give her the chance to live? also Dumbledore says he believes that Voldemort was going to use Harry's death for the 7th Horcrux . . . hmmmmm. Dumbledore thought it possible that Voldemort made Nagini a Horcrux as his 7th . . . but, with Voldemort's insistance that the Deatheaters not harm Harry, but leave him for Voldemort himself to kill . . . could it be that there hasn't been a 7th horcrux made? Is Voldemort still waiting to make it when he finally kills Harry? (which won't happen!)
 
Top