Harry is a Horcrux!

Alz

Administrator
Staff member
OK, sitting at work - well working as usual and then it suddenly dawned on me ...

I have said a few times I thought Harry was a horcrux and this met with the usual kinds of reception ..
So how about this as some kind of evidence ...

Dumbledore breaks the Ring Horcrux and gets his hand all messed up right - Necklace Horcrux has potion that should kill - if not the inferi and stuff - once again designed to protect the horcrux.

Harry destroys the Riddle Diary and ... not a thing happens to him!
You would have thought that it had the same kind of protection as the other horcruxes - so why didnt anything happen to Harry?
Because he had a piece of Voldemort in him - the protection was deactivated!
As such I propose that Harry was able to destroy the Horcrux with no side effects because the magic thought it was Voldemort!
 

gumshoe

Time Turners
I just yesterday posted this same point on another board. The response was that the diary didn't have other protections on it, that it was different. It was in Lucius' care and thus needed no protection. I didn't agree with the response, but since the topic at hand wasn't "Horcruxes," I didn't fight back.

Just because it's in Lucius' care doesn't negate added magical protections on it. What if Dumbledore or Ginny decided to stab it through its papery heart with a fang? Would they find their extremeties dying like Dumbledore's hand or would they just kill it? I think it would zap them, because nothing happened to Dumbledore upon finding the ring; it was when he attempted to destroy it that he was cursed.

It makes me think that Harry/Horcrux is a likelihood, and at least that Dumbledore thinks so, because he chooses the course of private study to focus on Horcrux identification (can we assume that he hoped to show Harry how to destroy them, or does he believe, perhaps, that Harry will "know" how as he did before?)

And of course I like it even more, because of what I've said about Slughorn perhaps wanting to protect Harry from Dumbledore, if he thinks that Dumbledore believes Harry to be a Horcrux.

So you've got my support.
gumshoe
 

Weasleyfanforever

Time Turners
I'm not sure what it is about this theory, but it just doesn't sit right with me.

We know that the ring killed Dumbledore's hand when he destroyed it, or when he came in posession of it. We also know that the potion made him very sick, but we're not sure that it in fact would have killed him. He obviously thought that it might, but he also thought that someone could cure it, that person being Severus Snape. So, if the potion was curable, it would have been a pretty strong protection, unless of course you knew a good potions master.

But, if Harry had tried to destroy any of these horcruxes, like he did with the diary, would he have been harmed? Maybe. He might've had a shrivelled up hand like Dumbledore, and he might've died from the potion, but I doubt it. We know that one must die at the hand of the other. The ring killed Dumbledore's hand, not Dumbledore himself, so I could see Harry incurring that injury as well. If the potion was meant to kill slowly, I don't think it would have killed Harry.

Why? Because as we know, it would have to be Voldemort that killed Harry, and I don't think that it was Voldemort that made the potion, I believe it was Snape.

So far, this has nothing to do with Harry being a Horcrux, because it is just speculation, but really, all we have is speculation, right? ;)

So, Harry destroys the diary, and he is not harmed. He killed a part of Voldemort, and this leads some to believe that because he wasn't harmed, he is a horcrux. In truth, he was harmed, and should have and would have died, had it not been for Fawkes. We are not sure about how Dumbledore was injured destroying or getting the ring, just that he was. But we do know that the "horcrux" in the cave is not what did the actual damage, it was the potion that did. So we have one horcrux that may have caused harm, and one that did not, possibly because it wasn't the real horcrux, we do not know.

My point is, how do we know that destroying a horcrux will cause any damage, once you are past the protections? we don't.

Also, with all the divulging of information that happened in HBP, and Harry finally knowing the full prophecy from Dumbledore himself, why wouldn't Dumbledore tell him if he had even an inkling that Harry was a Horcrux?
 
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Boing

Pops in randomly
I don't know about the reasoning/evidence behind the theory, but I have always thought that Harry was a horcrux as well. I really have no evidence to support the theory, but just the gut feeling that it is true.

I posted a thread back on MP about this before HBP came out to the effect of Voldemort having split himself into three parts, one of which was in Nagini, one in Harry, and one in Voldemort. The reasoning I used back then was that the prophecy indicated that "neither can live while the other survives" and I interpreted this as meaning that neither could truly "live" and become a full self while the other one survived. So, in Harry's case, because he has a piece of Voldemort in himself, he can't become a whole person and live while Voldemort is alive and Voldemort can't fully live while Harry is around because a piece of him is in Harry.

Don't know if that will sway anyone, but it's another thought.
 

Alz

Administrator
Staff member
The premise actually does make sense - it is about expanding your horizon's - suppose that is why this is wild spec ... closed minds not welcome :D

I think that each and everyone of those Horcruxes would have a final sting in the tail - something to prevent a person destroying them - afterall doesnt it make sense you save the best till last?
I stand by it - Harry may have been dying - but the Horcrux wasnt suppose to keep him alive - that will be Voldemort ... as such his closeness to demise has no bearing on this.
What is evident was that Harry was able to destroy that horcrux with no ill effects - and given he has to do this a few more times - doesnt it make sense that perhaps Harry will not be hurt like Dumbledore was when he finally gets his hands on each one?

Like it or not - wild spec - that is the get out clause ;)
 

gumshoe

Time Turners
Weasleyfanforever, what was killing Harry in the Chamber was the basilisk's venom, not the diary. And I too wonder what exactly did the damage to Dumbledore? Was it the protections in the area of the Horcrux or was it the protections on the Horcrux itself when he destroyed it?

And I think Dumbledore, if he suspected Harry was a Horcrux, would be either allowing Harry to come to that conclusion on his own or planning on telling him after he'd learned what Horcruxes were and had seen the protections on the Horcruxes for himself (in the cave). There's been lots of other information he withheld from Harry.

Boing, that's almost eerie that you posted that before HBP. Incidentally, I've also wondered if three individuals were at play in the prophecy (and now, of course, three "partial" individuals...)

gumshoe
 
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Orion

Guest
I thought that too when I read HBP, however there's something that doesn't fit. If Harry is a Horcrux, why does Voldemort tried to kill Harry on the graveyard in GoF. It doesn't make sense. Voldemort would try to protect part of himself not destroy it.
 

kashlie

afraid of my own shadow
I am supportive of the idea of Harry being a Horcrux. They are too important for him not to be directly related to them.

The only problem I have (well, okay, one OTHER problem) is WHEN would Voldemort have made Harry a Horcrux?
Was it not a AK that Harry survived, but in fact the spell to turn him into a Horcrux?
My theory of what happened at Godric's Hollow is this -
Voldemort went alone, intending on killing James and making Harry a Horcrux. Lily had to be kept alive to look after the boy, because I believe Vokdemort would not have left his Horcrux in an orphanage.
He killed James, but then Lily wouldn't step aside. He had to kill her to get to Harry, probably thinking very fast about where Harry would live.
He casts the spell on Harry to start the process of making him a Horcrux,(i am thinking he was up to the protection spells - one that would cause an explosion, perhaps?) but baby Harry was now the chosen one, and using the powers he inherited - (something to do with Lily's eyes), he causes the spell to backfire, scarring himself, and ripping Voldemort from his body, destroying the house...


so he managed to make Harry a Horcrux, and Harry is somehow protected by his mother's love, even combined with Horcrux protetion spells...

how does that sound? confusing?
 
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Orion

Guest
Voldemort tried to killed Harry, he cast the AK spell on him but failed as we all know because of the protection his mother gave him. and voldemort didn't die because there were still other horcruxes.

Voldemort didn't cast the horcrux spell on harry but the AK so how can anyone become a horcrux if they are trying to kill him instead?

I just don't think Harry can be a Horcrux, even though I think about it in the beginning
 

Flash

Time Turners
I was also thinking about Voldemort not actually using the AK on Harry. We all know Harry has been deemed "The Boy Who Lived" but it would be a nice ironic twist if he wasn't, but moreso "The Boy Who Was Cursed...". Anyway, I think that Voldemort tried to kill Harry (assuming he was made into a horcrux) because he realized eventually Harry was going to find the truth out and would come after him and he thought he could easily avoid Harry destroying all the other horcruxes and you know, the only one can surivive buisness, allows Harry to destroy that part of him while still "surviving" .
 

Weasleyfanforever

Time Turners
gumshoe said:
Weasleyfanforever, what was killing Harry in the Chamber was the basilisk's venom, not the diary. And I too wonder what exactly did the damage to Dumbledore? Was it the protections in the area of the Horcrux or was it the protections on the Horcrux itself when he destroyed it?

That actually was my point, that we don't know if it is a horcrux or jus the protections over it that do any damage.

Anyways, I was thinking about this, and I was wondering; In Voldemort's state after Harry was hit with AK, would he have been able to create a horcrux? I have inferred so far that it is very dark magic, therefore it would take a little bit of time and an immense amount of energy, neither of which Voldemort had after attempting to kill Harry. I suppose one could argue that Voldemort would have planned to use either Lily or James as the murder to create the Horcrux, but again, we can infer that he uses "important" deaths to create them, and what would have been more important than the boy that had been prophecised about?

I think if he was planning on using Harry as a Horcrux, it didn't happen because of the effects of the AK curse, Voldemort had nothing left to him, he said he was less than the meanest ghost, I highly doubt he could have performed a complex curse.

Another thing that bothers me here is the timeline of events. I don't have the exact wording, but we know that Harry has had "visions" from the dementors about that night, and nothing ever suggested that he tried to perform anything other than AK...

OK, I had to edit this in after reading it again:

Dumbledore said:
"You are protected, in short, by your ability to love!" said Dumbledore loudly. "The only protection that can possibly work against the lure of power like Voldemort's! In spite of all the temptation you have endured, all the suffering, you remain pure of heart, just as pure as you were at the age of eleven, when you stared into a mirror that reflected your heart's desire, and it showed you only the way to thwart Lord Voldemort, and not immortality or riches. Harry, have you any idea how few wizards could have seen what you saw in that mirror? Voldemort should have known then what he was dealing with, but he did not! But he knows it now. You have flitted into Lord Voldemort's mind without damage to yourself, but he cannot possess you without enduring mortal agony, as he discovered in the Ministry. I do not think he understands why, Harry, but then, he was in such a hurry to mutilate his own soul, he never paused to understand the incomparable power of a soul that is untarnished and whole."

Why I find this important is because, if in fact Harry were a horcrux, his soul wouldn't be untarnished. He would be housing a part of Voldemort's soul, and I wouldn't think that you would be able to hold more than one soul at a time. I'm sure the argument could be that it is believed that Nagini is a horcrux, but again that goes into discussion as to whether you believe animals have souls of their own. I don't know if it has been pointed out, but all of Voldemort's horcruxes, with the exception of Nagini, have been inanimate objects...
 
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Alz

Administrator
Staff member
Harry is without doubt holding something of Voldemort inside him - even Dumbledore touched upon this.
Harry has always had the curse of Voldemort inside him - I mean even the sorting hat saw it and could also explain how he met up with the brother wand.
What I am suggesting is all the times JKR said about Harry looking like Tom, Harry being connected to Tom, his unique powers and abilities leaves me with no doubts he is connected to Tom - but it is the matter of the connection that makes me think he might be a Horcrux.
 

halliemei

Time Turners
I'm going to jump into this whole "Harry is a Horcrux" discussion because I have a theory of sorts on it.

In book 6, we're introduced to some new magic. First, the Unbreakable Vow. Second, horcruxes. Third, inventing spells.

We don't know how the Unbreakable Vow thing is going to play back here (maybe not at all, but I think many of us think it's related to why DD trusts SS).

But, horcruxes become the big mystery. I think inventing spells is related to it.

We have evidence in the Prince's potions book that spells can be invented. And apparently, Snape did so. See US pg 604 "Flight of the Prince"


"You dare use my own spells against me, Potter? It was I who invented them -- I , the Half-Blood Prince!" And you'd turn my inventions on me, like your filthy father, would you? I don't think so . . . no!"


Keep in mind that for many years Snape was definitely a DE (we'll ignore the argument about "present day". Snape was possibly as close to a right-hand to VM as possible, though the cannon is sketchy on that. But, it is clear that VM was/is considered more talented and powerful than Snape. If Snape could invent spells (which it seems at least Levicorpus and possibly Sectumsempra he invented), why can't VM?

Put that together with the LITTLE bit we got from Slughorn's REAL memory on how horcruxes are made (pg 498, US)


"Encase? But how --?"
"There is a spell, do not ask me, I don't know!" said Slughorn, shaking his head like an old elephant bothered by mosquitoes. "Do I look as though I have tried it -- do I look like a killer?"



So there's a spell. It's safe to assume that you would either do the spell then kill or kill then do the spell. I don't know that you could "save it up", but I suppose it is possible. It does seem that way if Tom had already killed his father.

We also know that DD believed that Harry was to be the sixth horcrux (pg 506, US).


"He seems to have reserved the process for making Horcruxes for particularly significant deaths. You would certainly have been that. He believed that in killing you, he was destroying the danger the prophesy had outlined. He believed he was making himself invincible. I am sure that he was intending to make his final Horcrux with your death.

As we know, he failed. . . . ."

Then DD goes on to theorize that when Nagini was used to kill the old man that his death made him realize that he could use her to be last horcrux. That would seem to undermine the possiblity of Harry being a horcrux -- even if inadvertent or accidental. Except that in her interview with Emerson and Melissa (part 3), JKR remarked:


MA: Here at the end you sort of get the feeling that we know what Harry’s setting out to do, but can this really be the entire throughline of the rest of the story?

JKR: It's not all of it. Obviously it's not all of it, but still, that is the way to kill Voldemort. That's not to say it won't be extremely an torturous and winding journey, but that's what he's got to do. Harry now knows — well he believe he knows – what he’s facing. Dumbledore's guesses are never very far wide of the mark. I don't want to give too much away here, but Dumbledore says, ‘There are four out there, you've got to get rid of four, and then you go for Voldemort.’ So that's where he is, and that's what he's got to do.


"Never very far wide of the mark." But that doesn't say he's always EXACTLY right. Actually, it's probably not QUITE right. I think that's the crux of the argument.

My theory . . . VM didn't like going through the whole Horcrux/AK thing every time he wanted a horcrux, so he invented a spell that combined them. That's how the "accidental" horcrux thing happened. If it required preparation or after-work, it wouldn't really work here because VM had not been to GH before and he didn't really have time to do it after. It would necessitate "storing" the part of the soul for the horcrux for Nagini to have been made one after the attack on the muggle. That's not necessarily in cannon.

Two other things . . . From part 2 of the interview:


ES: Has the sorting hat ever been wrong?

JKR: No.

ES: Really?

JKR: Mm-mm. Do you have a theory?

ES: I have heard a lot of theories.

JKR: [laugh] I bet you have. No. [laugh] Sorry.

MA: That's interesting, because that would suggest that the voice comes more from a person's own head than the hat itself -

JKR: [makes mysterious noise]

MA: And that maybe when it talks on its own it comes from -

JKR: The founders themselves.

Wow! So, the voice you hear before it announces "Gryffindor" comes from inside your head? Hmmm . . . so there's more to the whole "part of him in you" thing I think. Harry was telling himself he'd do well in Slytherin. Sounds like Tom to me. That doesn't jibe with just leaving part of his talent in Harry.

And, last but not least, DD assumes Nagini is the horcrux and Harry asks (pg 306, US)

"The snake?" said Harry, startled. "You can use animals as horcruxes?"
"Well, it is inadvisable to do so," said Dumbledore, "becasue to confide a part of your soul to something that can think and move for itself is obviously very risky business."



First off (we all know), humans are animals. And Harry can certainly think and move for himself.

Any thoughts?
 
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Alz

Administrator
Staff member
*Claps loudly!!!!*
That was a pretty awesome round up there - maximum credit to you!

I would also like to point out the Dumbledore versus truth/mistake was also well covered by JKR in HBP - he himself also declared he might be wrong on some parts of what followed based on him having to step into the realms of speculation and guesswork ... I have a thread covering this but I feel JKR put the 'get out of jail' free card there so that she can twist Dumbledore's assumptions - and yes I would attribute that to Harry being a Horcrux.

The Sorting hat part is interesting as well - if indeed it is a person speaking via the hat - we know that the night of the attack Harry received something from Voldemort - Dumbledore just assumed it to be powers but given the Hocruxes theory - you can see the implications now.
I am racking my brains back to the writings about the fateful night - we know that Harry heard AK - but this could just so easily have been the AK cast at his mother - what Harry seems to observe is a green light - if you are correct, and for the record I think you might be, Voldemort has adapted AK with some extra's to seal a Horcrux - Harry would observe a green light but the load of the spell could be in question ...

Great post halliemei
 

Vestral

A Seeker of Sorts
HallieMei...
I found you over here !!! I'm really liking these new digs, and the discussions do seem much more "mature". Great ideas by the way to you, HallieMei. I too believe that Harry, or at least his scar, is a Horcrux.
I'll talk to you at work tomorrow.

I am very new to this thread, but not to HP speculation. I thought I'd throw in a few knuts of my own.
I believe that redemption is a major theme, if not the main theme of the whole series.

Dumbledore's habit of seeing the good in people and giving them second chances is critical to the plot, and Harry is learning, and has learned that nobody is perfect... even his parents. We all make mistakes... it is our choices that make us who we are.

It very well may be that Snape will convince Draco to turn against his father and Voldemort to help him relay information to Harry and the Order through school. Harry will have to learn to trust Draco and Snape, which Voldemort will not be able to understand.
In the end, I think Harry will even "vanquish" the Dark Lord, but redeem Tom Riddle.

Dumbledore is not entirely correct about the quality that Harry has... that Lily had... that fills that room in the DOM... that Voldemort does not have, nor does he understand...

It's not just love...

it's COMPASSION.

Oops... I got a bit off-topic on this one...sorry, I'm new.

"He put a bit of himself in me?" -Harry
"It certainly seems so." -Dumbledore (COS pg 333 American PB)

I think Harry is carrying around a bit of Voldy's soul, encased in the scar tissue on his forehead, as an accidental horcrux.

Dumbledore and others have said that they do not know how Harry survived because he is the only one known to have ever survived the Avada Kedavra curse. But we are ASSUMING that it was AK that was used. I'm with halliemei that it might have been a different, or modified version of AK to include an automatic horcrux creation after the intended murder. Lily, being the gifted witch she was, sacrificed herself, and somehow through a very effective charm or just the sacrificial act itself, caused the killing spell to go awry.

Voldemort got the killing part of the spell which nearly did kill him, but Harry got something very much by accident...
he got the horcrux part of the spell imbedded in his forehead. And what's more interesting is that it was probably the part of Voldy's soul that was torn by the murder of his mother, Lily. A very special horcrux to boot.
 
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god is broke

Time Turners
i am of two mind about harry being a horcux. i originally thoght harry couldn't be a horcux and this is why. it was said he could be a horcux because he didn't get hurt when he destroyed tom's dariy, this in my opion is because it was vold's first horcux and didn't have and spells protecting it. plus when going though memorys about voldy you could see he had an obsession with objects from the hogwarts founders. dumbdore said the last horcux is likely something from ravenclaw or gryffindor. but after listen to eveything, i have to admit it is very compelling and is enough to give it some thought. although deep down in my heart i don't think harry is a horcux.
 

Alz

Administrator
Staff member
As Vestral so well pointed out - Harry does have some of Voldemort in him - that is a fact.
Up to HBP - we always assumed that was a by-product of the attack that saw Voldemort ripped from his body - but after what we learnt in HBP - you can see another angle to this - the one that slants towards these 'links' Harry has to Voldemort wasnt just he absorbed some of his power - he actually absorbed a piece of Voldemort himself ... and thus the theory of Harry being a horcrux.
 

Vestral

A Seeker of Sorts
I think that the Diary Horcrux didn't have a protective curse on it because Voldemort intended for someone to open it and discover that it had been Tom Riddle who opened the Chamber of Secrets, and it was he who is Slytherin's heir.
You can't expect someone to work out how the Diary works and all, and curse them at the same time when they touch the Diary. Also, by the time Harry destroys the Diary, Tom Riddle ( the memory/soul ) was apparently out of the Diary itself, or at least most of the way physically, and I guess because the process had not been completed for him to drain all of the life force out of Ginny, the Horcrux object itself... the diary... was vulnerable. We just don't know enough about Horcruxes, again... and specifically, this unique Diary version.
 

kashlie

afraid of my own shadow
You know, the protective spell on the diary could have been the fact that it could control the person writing in it...eventually consuming their soul, killing them. it was just a long and slow process, rather than quick or painful like the other protective spells seemed to be.
 

god is broke

Time Turners
but if the person knew about the diary being a horcux, then the protection wouldn't work. it could only take over you if you wrote in it. if you don't write in it then doesn't have any power. i think that the diary was voldy's first horcux, and beeing that he planned to make more he thought that the diary wouldn't need protection compaired to his other ones. the diary is so normal for voldy that you wouldn't think it was a horcux at first. that could have been protction enough for him.
 
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