Harry is a Horcrux!

cagedcactus

Sherbet Lemon
whether you have read more threads here or not, it seems you are up to date. :D
Good points. And we have made the same points to argue.
But here is something I agreed with Alz on.
You see, there is nothing clear about that fateful night when Voldemort came to kill Harry. We have been told by DD and other people that Voldemort got blasted with that rebounded curse from Harry. But was anyone there to confirm it?
What if cards unfolded different altogether? What if it wasnt love that saved Harry, but an un intentional horcrux inside him that saved him?
I know the theory probably goes bonkers when hear first time, but until JKR comes forward and shows us why DD's theory is right, we have to assume a lot of things, no? :D
 

Alz

Administrator
Staff member
Exactly! If Voldemort did turn Harry into a horcrux, why try to kill him?? And why would he want to turn Harry into a horcrux when Voldemort "knew" that Harry was destined to kill him in the end? Or Padma do you mean that Harry's dead body would be a horcrux? Because I don't think anyone would want to use a dead body as a horcrux... it would just rot away!

Urghh - I have said this so many times!
Voldemort is probably unaware that Harry is a Horcrux - when the spell backfired he would have had no idea what was going on and what happened to his soul/body or anything else for that matter ...
But say he did ... isnt loosing 1/7th of your soul a worthy gamble if it means you can kill the one person destine to kill you?
Think about it - it is a bloody paradox!
If Harry lives - Voldemort can not die ... because the soul piece in Harry will always keep him alive - as such it would be genius to actually plan to plant a horcrux in him and then try and kill him - he cant loose!
If he succeeds - Harry dies and so does the one to vanquish him - if Harry lives - Voldemort can not die!

The only issue Voldemort has it working out how to kill Harry - because no matter what he is all good in the hood!
 

Glumbumble

Time Turners
Prior to Harry entering Hogwarts Harry and Voldemort had met on just one occasion. That occasion was when Harry’s parents were killed and Harry survived the Avada Kedavra curse. Voldemort made it quite clear both as the memory of Tom Riddle and at his rebirth that he did not expect Harry to survive. He concludes that Lily’s sacrifice acted as a countercurse to his curse. The impostor Moody and no less an authority than JKR herself have confirmed that nobody had ever survived the AK curse and so there was no way that Voldemort could have anticipated it.

So for those who wish to believe that Voldemort intended Harry to be a Horcrux must accept that the murder of either James or Lily was used to seal the soul fragment in Harry and that the first thing that Voldemort tried to do to the fragment detached by ripping his soul apart is to try to destroy it! That does not seem plausible even for Voldemort.

The remaining possibility is that Harry became a Horcrux by accident. As no one is certain about the process by which a Horcrux is made it is difficult to be certain one way or another. What we do know about Horcrux creation, from Slughorn, is that there appears to be two parts of the process. In the first part the soul is torn apart by the supreme act of evil, in the second part a spell is used to encase the soul fragment into a vessel.

"By an act of evil — the supreme act of evil. By committing murder. Killing rips the soul apart. The wizard intent upon creating a Horcrux would use the damage to his advantage: He would encase the torn portion —"
"Encase? But how — ?"
"There is a spell, do not ask me, I don't know!" said Slughorn shaking his head like an old elephant bothered by mosquitoes. " Do I look as though I have tried it — do I look like a killer?"

It is possible that it was Harry’s murder that was intended to be used to create a Horcrux. If this were so Voldemort would presumably have had a vessel to hand to encase the soul fragment. Following this argument we must assume that Voldemort had completed the encasement spell before the AV curse backfired on him and that somehow a soul fragment created by Lily or James’ murder became encased!

Voldemort says “Aaah . . . pain beyond pain, my friends; nothing could have prepared me for it. I was ripped from my body,…” On this occasion it was the remainder of Voldemort’s soul that was torn from his body, not the soul fragment. If Harry had become a Horcrux he would have encased the main part of Voldemort’s soul not the fragment. We know that not to be the case.

I think that it is unlikely that at that time Voldemort would have been able to make or complete the spell.

It also seems to me that if committing the supreme act of evil rips the soul in two Voldemort’s soul would already have been split twice that night in swift succession. With so many soul fragments “floating” around it would be difficult to know how much soul was being encased!

I do not think that we know of any of the murders that were used to create Horcruxes but I think that they would have been committed in fairly “safe” situations where it was unlikely that any resistance would occur and unlikely that there would have been anyone able to see what was occurring.
 

halliemei

Time Turners
Jumping in here to help Alz, and because I haven't posted in a while . . . we aren't assuming that Voldemort MEANT to do anything -- but kill Harry. Period. We also don't know how to make a horcrux and that Slughorn seems to be under the impression that it takes a second step. BUT, we also know that Voldemort had the help of someone (Snape) who had invented spells before. AND, if Snape is clever enough to invent spells, then certainly Voldemort is. You see, even Fred and George are inventing/changing spells. That is what we've been saying. We are saying that not only did Voldemort not MEAN to make Harry a horcrux, but that he doesn't know that he is one. He can't tell when one is destroyed (that we can tell), so he doesn't have the ability to detect them. We think that the point about Nagini is to notify the readers that living beings CAN be a horcrux.

I hate to jump in here, but I know after 19 pages that folks are missing parts of the "argument" here.

I am with the ones who believe he is a horcrux (or his scar is) . . . until given an argument that makes it not likely.
 

Glumbumble

Time Turners
Whether Snape or anyone else invented a new spell to make Horcruxes is not really the point. The point is that unless that, or Slughorn’s, spell was used a Horcrux would not have been made. I think that there is also a misunderstanding in respect of Horcruxes being identifiable. The fact that Voldemort does not know if a Horcrux has been destroyed is to do with the state of his soul. It is so damaged he cannot tell if another dislocated part has been destroyed.

"Does Voldemort know when a Horcrux is destroyed, sir? Can he feel it?" Harry asked, ignoring the portraits.
"A very interesting question, Harry. I believe not. I believe that Voldemort is now so immersed in evil, and these crucial parts of himself have been detached for so long, he does not feel as we do. Perhaps, at the point of death, he might be aware of his loss . . . but he was not aware, for instance, that the diary had been destroyed until he forced the truth out of Lucius Malfoy. When Voldemort discovered that the diary had been mutilated and robbed of all its powers, I am told that his anger was terrible to behold."

The detection of a Horcrux, by someone other than the “owner” of the soul fragment, would be around the identification of “known magic”, used for the encasement, as shown by Dumbledore in the cave. Using relics of the founders, that are themselves attributed with magic, might help disguise the encasement of a Horcrux but Harry would not normally, I think, have spells concealed within him. I am sure that if Harry had been a Horcrux then Dumbledore would have been able to tell.

Whatever it is that resides within Harry that Voldemort inadvertently placed there during the murder attempt does not act like the other encased Horcruxes. It has enabled Harry to feel Voldemort’s emotions, it has enabled Harry to see what Voldemort is seeing and thinking and it allowed Voldemort to see what Harry was doing (looking into Dumbledore’s eyes). It has allowed two way communication of sorts. Now Voldemort uses Occlumency to prevent Harry getting any further access to his mind.

Dumbledore says to Harry “You have flitted into Lord Voldemort's mind without damage to yourself, but he cannot possess you with-out enduring mortal agony, as he discovered in the Ministry.” If Voldemort cannot reside in Harry what chance a fragment of his soul?
 
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halliemei

Time Turners
Your point about the recognition of a horcrux is well taken.

But, it is relevant whether the horcrux spell is an "invention." The supposition is that Voldemort (or Snape, et al) invented a spell to speed up the process, thus combining the AK and the horcrux spell. He intended to make a horcrux OF Harry's death, so he used his "combo" spell. As such, it explains how the accidental horcrux was created. He'd casted the ONE spell that combines two and so the horcrux is created. The one issue I do have with this theory (which just dawned on me) is that I would think Voldemort would have possibly wondered about the scar on Harry's head. Unless he figured since part 1 didn't work that part 2 didn't either . . . I hate when I argue with myself. ;)
 

Glumbumble

Time Turners
Wouldn't a "combined spell" still require someone to die? Harry did not die and neither did Voldemort! Voldemort's soul, and it is the soul that matters in Horcrux creation, was ripped from his body.
 

jsez4444

Time Turners
Whatever it is that resides within Harry that Voldemort inadvertently placed there during the murder attempt does not act like the other encased Horcruxes. It has enabled Harry to feel Voldemort’s emotions, it has enabled Harry to see what Voldemort is seeing and thinking and it allowed Voldemort to see what Harry was doing (looking into Dumbledore’s eyes). It has allowed two way communication of sorts. Now Voldemort uses Occlumency to prevent Harry getting any further access to his mind.

This may be because none of the other horcruxes are living. If we assume that Nagini is a horcrux then actually it is a lot of the smae stuff. Like when Nagini attacked Arthur Weasley, Harry saw what happened through the snakes eyes and could hear what the snake was thinking as well as what the LV was telling it to do. This seems to be how LV communicates with Nagini over long distance missions he sends her on. Harry can even senses LV's feelings during the attack because he starts laughing. (I can't find the quote and don't have a book on me, if you do I would like to analyze it more, I think it could hold some clues as to how this might work.) If Harry can see into LV's mind because of what happened that night and LV can see into Nagini's mind because she is a Horcrux then that may mean that the reason Harry can see into LV's mind is because he is a Horcrux.
 

Alz

Administrator
Staff member
Wouldn't a "combined spell" still require someone to die? Harry did not die and neither did Voldemort! Voldemort's soul, and it is the soul that matters in Horcrux creation, was ripped from his body.

Ummm - ok, lets assume when he got his own back he would have died - in fact his body was somewhat - well, only the fact he had horcruxes meant his soul stayed alive - so in order for his horcrux to trigger .... he had to be killed ... or die ...
As such, someone did die that night ... himself ... although the horcruxes prevented him from a mortal death and instead triggered and kept his soul alive ...

Then of course - we have the fact 2 other people died that night ... Lily and James - so there was scope and opportunity!
The fact both of them 'thrice' defied him would link into an importance to using their deaths ...

Now jsez4444 - that is the right kind of thinking!
 

Glumbumble

Time Turners
Jsez4444 is this the quote you were thinking of
OotP Chapter 24 page 456 said:
He opened the door of his dormitory and was one step inside it when he experienced pain so severe he thought that someone must have sliced into the top of his head. He did not know where he was, whether he was standing or lying down, he did not even know his own name.
Maniacal laughter was ringing in his ears… he was happier than he had been in a very long time… jubilant, ecstatic, triumphant… a wonderful, wonderful thing had happened…
Someone had hit him around the face. The insane laughter was punctuated with a cry of pain.
The happiness was draining out of him, but the laughter continued…He opened his eyes and, as he did so, he became aware that the wild laughter was coming out of his own mouth. The moment he realised this, it died away; Harry lay panting on the floor, staring up at the ceiling, the scar on his forehead throbbing horribly. Ron was bending over him, looking very worried.
'What happened?' he said.
'I… dunno…' Harry gasped, sitting up again. 'He's really happy… really happy…"
'You-Know-Who is?'
'Something good's happened,' mumbled Harry. He was shaking as badly as he had done after seeing the snake attack Mr Weasley and felt very sick. 'Something he's been hoping for.'

I was wondering whether the destruction/killing order can be changed?

I have always assumed that Voldemort’s Horcruxes have to be destroyed before he can be killed.
HBP said:
Harry sat in thought for a moment, then asked, "So if all of his Horcruxes are destroyed, Voldemort could be killed?"
"Yes, I think so," said Dumbledore. "Without his Horcruxes, Voldemort will be a mortal man with a maimed and diminished soul. Never forget, though, that while his soul may be damaged be-yond repair, his brain and his magical powers remain intact. It will take uncommon skill and power to kill a wizard like Voldemort even without his Horcruxes."

This presents a dilemma for the Harry is a Horcrux lobby because Harry would need to die before Voldemort could be killed. Yet Harry is destined to kill Voldemort.

But what happens if Voldemort is killed with one Horcrux remaining? I guess that his soul is ripped from his body again and he becomes less than spirit, less than the meanest ghost. He would continue in this form until another rebirthing took place.

What then happens if the final Horcrux is destroyed? Is Voldemort’s spirit existence also destroyed because it has neither vessel to contain it or another soul fragment prevent it from perishing?

If Harry were a Horcrux, a position I have often argued against, and he was to understand this he could “kill” Voldemort before walking through the veil himself.

I have posted on another thread that Harry will end the series in this way although, while writing this post, have thought that there is a precedent for magical processes reversing in unusual circumstances. The AK curse rebounded on Voldemort because Lily sacrificed herself to save Harry. Nobody had done this before so it was not known that the AK curse could be stopped. It could be possible that a selfless act like Harry walking through the veil and sacrificing himself to save the world from Voldemort would result in his own life being saved.
 
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jsez4444

Time Turners
I have said the same thing before, I think that if Harry is a Horcrux he will destroy the rest of the Horcruxes and maybe not realize he is the last one until he comes face to face with LV. This would add huge suspense to the battle because Harry would be really worried that he met up with him too soon. Then somewhere during the course of the battle he will realize it or LV will tell him and then he will know what he has to do. So he kills LV and then has to kill himself. Walking through the veil would definitely be the way he goes too, kind of following in Sirius' foot steps maybe?
 

Rubeus

Time Turners
Let me think....... a wizard has to use a wand to perform magic........Voldy kills james then lilly.........turns harry into a horcrux....... then tries to kill him......NOT BUYING THIS
 

Alz

Administrator
Staff member
Let me think....... a wizard has to use a wand to perform magic........Voldy kills james then lilly.........turns harry into a horcrux....... then tries to kill him......NOT BUYING THIS

Wow - powerful argument you offered there - guess that is case and point and we should close the thread huh?
It's amazing to me that if it is sooo obvious Harry isnt a horcrux, how come no-one can explain the backfired AK, the deep forged link between Harry and Voldemort that so connects the two ...
Wandless magic isnt deficient in the series - not to say it was employed here as there was plenty of wands around that night ... but still an interesting point, well maybe the only interesting point :rolleyes:

No-one says it is perfect but some would say it makes sense given the events of that night and the way Harry and Voldemort connect ... for them, we continue ....
 

jsez4444

Time Turners
Here is a point I just came across while reading the OotP again. After the fight at the ministry when Dumbledore is talking to Harry in his office about the prophecy and the power of love that Harry has in such large quantities he says this:

"That power also saved you from possession by Voldemort, because he could not bear to reside in a body so full of the force he detests."

That force is clearly love, so if Voldemort could not possess Harry now because of the amount of love in his body is it possible for him to have apiece of his soul trapped in Harry at all? Wouldn't it also be destroyed by the love that Harry has so much of because the soul would be evil? Or is that even the same thing?

I think this is open to different interpretations.
 

Alz

Administrator
Staff member
Interesting retort there jsez4444 - could Voldemort has occupied the same space as the Horcrux ... well he did but only for a little while until Harry started to feel deep love - then he checked out ...
Could Voldemort have 'sensed' the presence of the horcrux in Harry - I dont think so, JKR did say once the soul portion is removed Voldemort can not feel what happens to it ...
Could it be that the horcrux in Harry helped with getting Voldemort out when Harry felt love - that is possible as well ... but it is a good point, JKR wrote that part to suggest it was the love that made Voldemort be removed from Harry ...
 

jsez4444

Time Turners
Thats not quite what I was saying Alz. I wasn't talking about Voldemort being in the same place as his Horcrux, I was asking if a horcrux could even exist inside Harry because of the deep love. Voldemort himself couldn't stand it so would a piece of his soul be able to reside there?
 

Alz

Administrator
Staff member
Ok, IF HiaH and that soul portion was planted that night - they have had 15 years to co-exist ...
Now if Harry can access the horcrux - perhaps the years of being in there has developed some tolerance?
I think maybe it might be locked away and it 'leaks' occasionally into Harry's mind - the times when he can feel Voldemort ... perhaps Voldemort acts like the trigger and causes the connection to tweak?
When Voldemort possessed Harry - Harry's head felt like it was going to split
OoTP The Only one he Ever Feared said:
Then Harry's scar burst open and he knew he was dead: it was pain beyond imagining, pain past endurance -
He was gone from the hall, he was locked in the coils of a creature with red eyes, so tightly bound that Harry did not know where his body ended and the creature' began: they were fused together, bound by pain, and there was no escape
I really like that quote in context of this theory ...
 

Dr Winterbourne

Time Turners
If Harry is Voldemort's horcrux, why would Voldemort ever consider killing Harry?

Does the prophecy shed any light on this? If neither can live while the other survives, maybe the love inherant in Harry is toxic to the portion of Voldemort in him, and thus VM wants it out ... Nuh. Doesn't seem plausible. There's no evidence for that.
 

Dumbledore's man

Azkaban and beyond
If Voldemort heard only some part of prophecy and he thought prophecy is saying that boy will kill Voldemort. Then, Voldemort must have thought to make that boy(Harry) his Horcrux. Then if boy(Harry) killed Voldemort (and also destroyed his all Horcruxes) Voldemort will remain earthbound until the boy(Harry) is alive. So, that boy(Harry) will have to kill himself if he wants to kill Voldemort (fully).:D
 

Alz

Administrator
Staff member
If Harry is Voldemort's horcrux, why would Voldemort ever consider killing Harry?

Does the prophecy shed any light on this? If neither can live while the other survives, maybe the love inherant in Harry is toxic to the portion of Voldemort in him, and thus VM wants it out ... Nuh. Doesn't seem plausible. There's no evidence for that.

If Voldemort heard only some part of prophecy and he thought prophecy is saying that boy will kill Voldemort. Then, Voldemort must have thought to make that boy(Harry) his Horcrux. Then if boy(Harry) killed Voldemort (and also destroyed his all Horcruxes) Voldemort will remain earthbound until the boy(Harry) is alive. So, that boy(Harry) will have to kill himself if he wants to kill Voldemort (fully).:D

DM offers one of the reason I have pointed towards before - make the one thing that can kill you a Horcrux - then you can never die ... because if he kills you - the horcrux in him will re-generate you - how Ouroboros is that!
Of course and more likely the second idea - Voldemort doesnt actually know Harry is a Horcrux ... I have done this one to death in this thread so perhaps read back on my previous answers to 'why would Voldemort try and kill his own horcrux' ...

One point you make DW is something I have also considered - what if Voldemort is re-born from this 'Harry' tained horcrux portion ... the final horcrux ... because in effect the chances are if HiaH and the big battle comes off ... that would more than likely be Voldemort's final horcrux .... the one left in Harry ...
So, if Harry kills off Voldemort ... and Voldemort is re-born from this horcrux ... it could be almost polluted ... I do like that idea as well ...

The prophecy does somewhat support this 'neither can live while the other survives ...' the other could be the final horcrux, the piece of Voldemort than isnt quite Voldemort anymore and also alien to Harry - but joins both ...
Neither can live while the horcrux survives ... why?
Because Voldemort has to kill Harry ... so would kill his 'other' or horcrux.
Harry can't live while Voldemort is alive as Voldemort will keep trying to kill him ...
Voldemort can't die while Harry is alive .... as the horcrux will keep him alive ... so in effect Harry can't kill Voldemort without killing himself!
 
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