Horcrux creation for Dummies!!

cagedcactus

Sherbet Lemon
I am the first Dummy to start.
Ok, this is a crucial process that we have discussed in various forums, relating somehow to all the book 7 possibilities. The horcrux creation theory can help find the horcruxes itself.
We have a lot of fellow members discussing different objects or living as horcruxes.
How many of you believe that Horcrux creation can be done only at the time of murder?
AND
How many of you believe that Horcrux creation can be done anytime after the murder?

I believe that it has to be done at the time of murder.
WHY?
Because I believe that Horcrux creation relates more to that feeling, instead of just a spell. That feeling of horrible act of murder rips soul. That soul must be sealed in a vessel right away to avoid loss of that feel. To me, it is not logical to think that, when you kill someone, and then go about your business, and then one day all of a sudden seal a horcrux with that murder you commited some time back. Because if that is the case, then Voldemort can create a horcrux even if he is almost dying at Harry's hands anytime in future when they fight.
Please post your agreements, or disagreements.
And while we are at it, why not discuss the order of spells.
How many of you believe that Horcrux creation spell comes after act of murder?
AND
How many of you believe that Horcrux creation spell comes before act of murder?

This crucial process can also answer a lot about that fateful night when baby Harry survived and Voldemort got blasted.
 
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yarvelling

Time Turners
Perhaps....nice idea! I think though that if the Horcrux has to be made at the time of the murder, it is more to protect and preserve the now torn fragment of soul from decaying and dying! Also, I don't know (obviously!!) whether two independant pieces of soul could co-exist within one body, without causing some type of harm; maybe mentally, to the host, so it may well be necessary to create the Horcrux as soon as is possible, as well as giving the orphaned soul a safe refuge!
 

Glumbumble

Time Turners
I agree that it is logical that the murder is contemporaneous with the process of making the Horcrux.
Dumbledore says that he thinks that Voldemort used significant murders for the creation of his horcruxes.
One thing that does confuse me is the statement by Slughorn the "Killing rips the soul apart." this seems to suggest that all murders rip the soul apart. In this case the process of creating a horcrux would simply be encasing something that would otherwise be lost. He also says "But, of course, existence in such a form ... few would want it, Tom, very few. Death would be preferable."
How would this relate to other wizards who have murdered, wormtail or aurors for example.
This leads me to believe that the creation of a horcrux involves not only a vessel and a spell but also a murder committed specifically for the purpose of creating the horcrux and contemporaneously with the spell.
 

cagedcactus

Sherbet Lemon
I agree that it is logical that the murder is contemporaneous with the process of making the Horcrux.
Dumbledore says that he thinks that Voldemort used significant murders for the creation of his horcruxes.
One thing that does confuse me is the statement by Slughorn the "Killing rips the soul apart." this seems to suggest that all murders rip the soul apart. In this case the process of creating a horcrux would simply be encasing something that would otherwise be lost. He also says "But, of course, existence in such a form ... few would want it, Tom, very few. Death would be preferable."
How would this relate to other wizards who have murdered, wormtail or aurors for example.
This leads me to believe that the creation of a horcrux involves not only a vessel and a spell but also a murder committed specifically for the purpose of creating the horcrux and contemporaneously with the spell.

Very good points.
I read this somewhere on JKR. She explained in depth of what bad witchcraft practice would do to the wizards and witches.
Cruciatus curse doesnt work if the intention to cause pain is righteous. Once must cast the spell to enjoy and mean it. The reason Voldemort is so good with torchure curses and death curses, is because his feelings are almost default. It is like he has no heart left. His desires, and rotten mind has taken over the body. His time in that orphanage didnt help either. Because he didnt get the attention he needed in childhood. And by the time Dumbledore came with the letter, it was probably too late.
So when he kills, he almost enjoys that kill. He kills so he can encase his ripped soul. Now that same act can leave any normal witch, wizard, or a muggle completely devastated. But it doesnt work the same way with him. So once horcrux is created, his mind set doesnt change, but his soul becomes weaker and weaker by day. Thus changing the whole outlook and personality.
If you agree with the points above, you probably would also agree that such a crucial process cant be waited on. It should be done at the time of the murder.
 

yarvelling

Time Turners
I believe that Voldemorts' killing is for two reasons: To remove obvious threats, and punish those who oppose him, and of course, since he learned of the concept of Horcruxes, as a means to ensure his own immortality. Remember, he had Cedric murdered for no other reason than that he was there, but not needed! frank Bryce wwas killed because he'd spied upon Voldemort. two more deaths of little 'significance' to Voldemort, but they would of course provide more fragments of his soul in which to create new Horcruxes should he so choose! I think that when reference was made to Voldemort favouring 'important' killings for the purpose, it was just his arrogance driving him.
As a side to this; Snape, if he knows of Horcruxes and the required magic (and I'm sure he would!) is now in a position to create one for himself to help him against either Voldemort or harry!
 

Sirius Potter Fan

Night Patroll
First my answers . . .

Yes I believe the horcrux must be made and sealed at the time of the murder.

I lean to the spell being cast after the murder, but, within a limited time.

We have argued on another thread whether the soul is split from "any" killing or only those done with murderous intent, in other words the soul may not split when killing is done in self-defense, as the Aurors would have done. It was also argued whether the severed soul piece could rejoin if left in the person and not made into a horcrux. The ideal explanation, that a soul indeed splits in any killing, but, in the case of killing in self-defense can recombine, gives substance to the possibility of redemption. I actualy believe that a pure soul forced to kill would suffer more initialy than a wicked soul, but, that it can heal in time.
 

peanutgal1

Time Turners
I think that since its been explained that the ripping of the soul occurs at the time of the murder, it only makes sense to believe that the horcrux must be created contemporaneous with, but just after the murder.
However, as you and I have discussed before, the Peverell ring had not yet been obtained at the time that Voldemort killed his father or grandparents. In fact, those murders occured in between his fifth and sixth year at Hogwarts (his sixteenth year). Therefore, either a horcrux was not made to seal the murder of Tom Riddle Sr. or horcruxes can be made at any time after the murder. The only other possession that Voldemort had at the time of the Riddles' murders was the diary. However, because Voldemort was so nonchalant about the diary and its preservation, I doubt that it was sealed with a "significant" death.
 

cagedcactus

Sherbet Lemon
peanutgal, you started on the right note. Very good point that we discussed in another thread. But let us see where you finished.
I think that the diary definitely sealed his first horcrux. That horcrux is Tom Riddle SR. Then he picked up the ring from Marvolo as he returned that wand. He had the ring on his finger as he asked Slughorn about horcruxes. He wanted to find out if he can create more horcruxes. Every single horcrux he has created intentionally, have been significant deaths. So I think the diary with Riddle Sr. would fit well, agree?

We have argued on another thread whether the soul is split from "any" killing or only those done with murderous intent, in other words the soul may not split when killing is done in self-defense, as the Aurors would have done. It was also argued whether the severed soul piece could rejoin if left in the person and not made into a horcrux. The ideal explanation, that a soul indeed splits in any killing, but, in the case of killing in self-defense can recombine, gives substance to the possibility of redemption. I actualy believe that a pure soul forced to kill would suffer more initialy than a wicked soul, but, that it can heal in time.

Yes I agree word to word. A murder without horcrux creation, whether defense or offense, would rip the soul badly. But then the soul will heal faster too.

Remember, he had Cedric murdered for no other reason than that he was there, but not needed! frank Bryce wwas killed because he'd spied upon Voldemort. two more deaths of little 'significance' to Voldemort, but they would of course provide more fragments of his soul in which to create new Horcruxes should he so choose! I think that when reference was made to Voldemort favouring 'important' killings for the purpose, it was just his arrogance driving him.
Correct you are.
Yes he does kill people like flies. And yes his arrogance drives him. But he choses his killings when he intends and plans to. Significant deaths, significant vessels, significant locations. And that my friend, is the reason why I think the way I posted in begining. Thinking other way around will prove that he probably has few souls ripped in his pocket, which he can use anytime. And that would be against logic.
 

peanutgal1

Time Turners
If he created the diary horcrux with the death of Tom Riddle Sr., why was he so careless with it?

As far as significant deaths, I think you hit the nail on the head when you discussed the murders of the Bones' and Prewetts. I think that Voldemort is sealing the horcruxes with the deaths of the remaining pureblood families. It makes me wonder then whether R.A.B's death sealed a horcrux. Remember that Sirius specifically says that he does not believe that Regulus was important enough for Voldemort to have murdered himself.

When you think about it, other than the Potters, who only became "famous" after Harry survived, other than Riddle, Sr. are there any deaths you would consider significant?
 

Glumbumble

Time Turners
I tend to agree with the idea of soul fragments reuniting with the remaining soul when not used for the creation of a horcrux. It must be the case though, that creating a horcrux does permanently damage the soul. Voldemort appears reluctant to create new horcruxes despite his somewhat casual approach to murder. Dumbledore tells of Voldemort’s anger at Lucius Malfoy when he learns of the destruction of the Diary. It could be that Voldemort was angry at the loss of the Diary itself or the loss of the Horcrux. I tend to think that it was the loss of the Horcrux that angered him.
I have expressed the view, on another thread, that I do not think that Voldemort is able to create any further Horcruxes.
As a newcomer to this site I am still reading through the many interesting and informative threads. I am not sure whether there has been a similar thread to this in relation to the way in which Horcruxes are used, whether they need to be accessed and used when reunited with a body.
Returning to the issue of creating Horcrux creation it would seem that if the murders of the James, Lilly and Harry were to be used to create a further Horcrux then he would have had already decided on a vessel. This must either have been taken to Godric’s Hollow by Voldemort or it must have been at the Potter house.
If it is the case, as has been suggested, that the Horcrux spell is performed after the murder has been committed then it should be safe to assume that Voldemort was unable to perform it after his Avada Kedavra curse had rebounded upon him.

Peanutgal, I am not sure that Voldemort was careless with the Diary. He entrusted it to the care of Lucius who, not knowing what it was, and believing that Voldemort had been killed, disposed of it.
I agree that it is likely that either the Diary or the Ring became a horcrux through the murder of Tom Riddle snr. and that he had already made a horcrux by the time that he spoke to Slughorn about the creation of multiple horcruxes
 

cagedcactus

Sherbet Lemon
Returning to the issue of creating Horcrux creation it would seem that if the murders of the James, Lilly and Harry were to be used to create a further Horcrux then he would have had already decided on a vessel. This must either have been taken to Godric’s Hollow by Voldemort or it must have been at the Potter house.
If it is the case, as has been suggested, that the Horcrux spell is performed after the murder has been committed then it should be safe to assume that Voldemort was unable to perform it after his Avada Kedavra curse had rebounded upon him.

Aha....
Welcome to the party. I am sure you will come across horcrux threads, so I wont go into details.
But tell me this. Has there been any proof about what happened that night? No. All we have heard is the closest story from Dumbledore. Dumbledore believes that Voldemort attacked James first, killing him, then went on to kill Harry. But Lily stood in the way, to whom Voldemort offered a chance. She stayed and offered her life to shield Harry. That protection cause the AK curse to rebound on Voldemort when he tried to kill Harry finally.
Now. If the things that way, then I believe there cant be any Horcruxes that night. why? Because of all those three deaths, Voldemort would have wanted Harry's kill to seal a horcrux. Since AK rebounded, no chance for horcrux spell, therefore no Horcrux.
But if the things didnt go that way, and reality is different, then we have a lot of hidden stuff we can discuss. Harry himself being a horcrux can not be denied, either.
I am sure there was another presence at that night in that house. I am sure we will learn more......
 

SnarkologyMajor

Time Turners
We definately have much contradictory evidence to sift through on the subject of whether horcrux creation has to be simultaneous w/killing or not-for one thing, the only voice we have witness from is Barty Jr. & was he even there? He is the one who says about Avada Kedavra-

GoF pg. 217-...."And there's no countercurse. There's no blocking it. Only one person has ever survived it...."

Yet Riddle says in CoS-

pg.317-"So. Your mother died to save you. Yes, that's a powerful countercharm..."

If the curse Avada Kedavra was actually used-then these two statements oppose each other completely. Who do we believe, BC jr. or Voldemort?

JKR has stated that if the dairy horcrux would have succeeded in stealing the life force of Ginny-present day Voldemort would have been considerably stronger. Was this Tom Riddle's plan from the very start? It makes sense on a certain level when you consider that Tom was able to charm those he needed-I can believe that it was never his intention to stay in a mutilated form. For him to be able to regain his 16 yr. old body some some 50 yrs. later is quite a manouver. Does this give us any insight on horcrux creation? Or is this relating only to the use of horcruxes? Still pondering that one...:eek:
 

cagedcactus

Sherbet Lemon
GoF pg. 217-...."And there's no countercurse. There's no blocking it. Only one person has ever survived it...."

Yet Riddle says in CoS-

pg.317-"So. Your mother died to save you. Yes, that's a powerful countercharm..."

If the curse Avada Kedavra was actually used-then these two statements oppose each other completely. Who do we believe, BC jr. or Voldemort?


That is an easy one. Of all the things Voldemort has said, the only we can really be sure about him not lying is what you stated up there. He was blasted with that countercharm.
Barty Cr Jr was clever and cunning, but his knowledge about Avada Kedavra curse was just that he knew it was defenseless. Just like any other normal wizard at this moment he has a reason to believe that. Only Voldemort, Dumbledore, and probably Snape or someone mysterious behind the scenes know about that countercharm.
 

Glumbumble

Time Turners
We definately have much contradictory evidence to sift through on the subject of whether horcrux creation has to be simultaneous w/killing or not-for one thing, the only voice we have witness from is Barty Jr. & was he even there? He is the one who says about Avada Kedavra-

GoF pg. 217-...."And there's no countercurse. There's no blocking it. Only one person has ever survived it...."

Yet Riddle says in CoS-

pg.317-"So. Your mother died to save you. Yes, that's a powerful countercharm..."

If the curse Avada Kedavra was actually used-then these two statements oppose each other completely. Who do we believe, BC jr. or Voldemort?

There could be a way that both of these statements could be correct. A definition of a “Charm”, lifted from another site, states
Charms can make a person laugh or dance or even create a bubble of breathable air around a person's head. In all of these cases, the object or the person doesn't really change, they just do something unexpected.

A countercurse would seem to me to be some kind of spell that either blocks or negates the curse of another wizard.
Lily performed no countercurse. Her actions, in laying down her own life, without making a spell may well have affected Voldemort in the making of the AK curse. All the information we have about the unforgivable curses tells us that you really have to want to kill or hurt. Dumbledore keeps telling Harry and others of the power of love and says it is something that Voldemort does not understand and therefore underestimates. I would suggest that the reason AK backfired upon Voldemort relates to his feelings at the time the curse was made.
Comments please.

Just found the following record of interview with JKR on Leaky

[Lily] could have lived and chose to die. James was going to be killed anyway. Do you see what I mean? I’m not saying James wasn't ready to; he died trying to protect his family but he was going to be murdered anyway. He had no - he wasn't given a choice, so he rushed into it in a kind of animal way, I think there are distinctions in courage. James was immensely brave. But the caliber of Lily's bravery was, I think in this instance, higher because she could have saved herself. Now any mother, any normal mother would have done what Lily did. So in that sense her courage too was of an animal quality but she was given time to choose. James wasn't. It's like an intruder entering your house, isn't it? You would instinctively rush them. But if in cold blood you were told, "Get out of the way," you know, what would you do? I mean, I don't think any mother would stand aside from their child. But does that answer it? She did very consciously lay down her life. She had a clear choice -
ES: And James didn't.
JKR: Did he clearly die to try and protect Harry specifically given a clear choice? No. It's a subtle distinction and there's slightly more to it than that but that's most of the answer.
MA: Did she know anything about the possible effect of standing in front of Harry?
JKR: No - because as I've tried to make clear in the series, it never happened before. No one ever survived before. And no one, therefore, knew that could happen.
MA: So no one - Voldemort or anyone using Avada Kedavra - ever gave someone a choice and then they took that option [to die] -
JKR: They may have been given a choice, but not in that particular way.
 
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Sirius Potter Fan

Night Patroll
just as a side note to the above, Barty JR. would not likely have known what happened that night when Harry survived, and, LV didn't talk about it till later in the book, in the Grave yard. . .
 

SnarkologyMajor

Time Turners
I agree-Barty's contribution to our knowledge of what happened w/Harry is hogwash and also designed by JKR to distract us:D I guess I'm questioning whether Voldemort's horcrux creation spell isn't a completely different spell from Avada Kedavra altogether...
 

Sirius Potter Fan

Night Patroll
I suppose it could be a possibility that there would be a seperate spell, only . . . the sequence seems to be, 1)kill, 2)soul torn, 3)soul bit removed and sealed in item. It seems unusual that such a significant type of spell could be made so simple as to do all in one step kind of thing, we haven't seen multipurpose spells before, but, not being JKR I can't say for sure what will happen LOL (or for that matter, whether she will ever expand on the situation, I'm thinking probably not) Perhaps this is something that should be put into a carefuly worded question for JKR!
 

tobias

Time Turners
I guess I'm questioning whether Voldemort's horcrux creation spell isn't a completely different spell from Avada Kedavra altogether...

I agree- we have seen the AK used before but only Voldy has Horcruxes. (Or Did Wormtail create a Horcrux with Cedric? )

Something else, some other step must be necessary.
Maybe only a different mindset: like Unforgivable Curses you have to want a Horcrux for it to work...
 

cagedcactus

Sherbet Lemon
I agree- we have seen the AK used before but only Voldy has Horcruxes. (Or Did Wormtail create a Horcrux with Cedric? )

Something else, some other step must be necessary.
Maybe only a different mindset: like Unforgivable Curses you have to want a Horcrux for it to work...

Very interesting indeed.
Your last sentence definitely has weight. Knowing what Voldemort is capable of, the horcrux creation may include that dark thought of really wanting it.
He himself has said that he has pushed all the boundaries of Magic. He does act and seem like it.
 

Alz

Administrator
Staff member
I think another important factor here is - no-one has ever lived to say how a horcrux was created no?
The knowledge of the process is still unknown to pretty much everyone - even Horace didnt know exactly how it was done ...
Now to the fateful night - we only have 2 accounts of what happened - one from Dumbledore and one from Voldemort ... Dumbledore would appear to know what happened although by rights has no basis unless he was there .... Voldemort makes no mention of anyone else being there at the time from his recollections ... so maybe the moment of obscurity happens between Voldemort killing Lily and him turning to attack Harry ... we know an AK was issued by Voldemort but ASSUME it was levied at Harry ... will stop there and let you all think on that for a minute ...

It would appear from little evidence we have that the killings and object are together at the same time - at least with the cup and the ring ... and of course the significance of linking the three parts together for creating a horcrux exist to give some guidance on what could otherwise be a - ummm US term - crap shoot?

So - we are told you have to kill in order to make a horcrux - although never specifically told it has to be AK - we are just told that is the killing curse - I think assumption kicks in with most people's mind again ...
Voldemort has killed more than 6 times - so if AK is the ripper of souls then his soul is more shredded than anything we have ever seen - certainly more than 6 times ...
So - logic dictates another curse or spell exists that will then peform the horcrux procedure - and I cant help but wonder JKR's recent site update is a cluette to this - she is trying to think up a new word and remembers the same from when she created the word 'Horcrux' ... can you see what it is yet ;)

Soooo - does an object need sealing at time of AK - ummm - that would be your assumption AK is used as the mechanism for killing ... and would seem contradicted by the fact Voldemort has killed so often how would be keep just 7 pieces of soul in tact?

I go for whatever is used to create a horcrux is also used to seal a horcrux - and right now thinking they are not involving AK ...
 
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