Horcrux creation for Dummies!!

Slowie34

Time Turners
I am the first Dummy to start.
Ok, this is a crucial process that we have discussed in various forums, relating somehow to all the book 7 possibilities. The horcrux creation theory can help find the horcruxes itself.
We have a lot of fellow members discussing different objects or living as horcruxes.
How many of you believe that Horcrux creation can be done only at the time of murder?
AND
How many of you believe that Horcrux creation can be done anytime after the murder?

I believe that it has to be done at the time of murder.
WHY?
Because I believe that Horcrux creation relates more to that feeling, instead of just a spell. That feeling of horrible act of murder rips soul. That soul must be sealed in a vessel right away to avoid loss of that feel. To me, it is not logical to think that, when you kill someone, and then go about your business, and then one day all of a sudden seal a horcrux with that murder you commited some time back. Because if that is the case, then Voldemort can create a horcrux even if he is almost dying at Harry's hands anytime in future when they fight.
Please post your agreements, or disagreements.
And while we are at it, why not discuss the order of spells.
How many of you believe that Horcrux creation spell comes after act of murder?
AND
How many of you believe that Horcrux creation spell comes before act of murder?

This crucial process can also answer a lot about that fateful night when baby Harry survived and Voldemort got blasted.


I do not agree that the horcrux has to be made immediately following the murder. When Voldemort asked Slughorn about horcruxes he was already wearing the ring taken from Morphin after he was framed for the Riddle murders. If he was asking about horcruxes then the chances were he had not yet created one, yet he had already committed the murders. Also Dumbledor said that a while after, Voldemort stopped wearing the ring and he believed that this was when he made it into the horcrux and no longer wanted to wear it. This suggests that a horcrux could be made some time after the murders, not necessarily imediately after.
 

cagedcactus

Sherbet Lemon
I do not agree that the horcrux has to be made immediately following the murder. When Voldemort asked Slughorn about horcruxes he was already wearing the ring taken from Morphin after he was framed for the Riddle murders. If he was asking about horcruxes then the chances were he had not yet created one, yet he had already committed the murders. Also Dumbledor said that a while after, Voldemort stopped wearing the ring and he believed that this was when he made it into the horcrux and no longer wanted to wear it. This suggests that a horcrux could be made some time after the murders, not necessarily imediately after.

well, you can debate that in a lot of ways.
He was asking Slughorn about Horcruxes, yes. I and most of the members here think that his intention behind this was to find out whether more than one can be created by one person. Him wearing the ring already actually proves that he had the first horcrux under his belt.
Him wearing the ring at that time cant possibly prove that it is not a horcrux. It very well may not be, but we have to look in the logical direction.
And you summed up in one topic that doesnt even touch the whole horcrux creation process. I would like to hear more on that side too. :)
 

cagedcactus

Sherbet Lemon
What Ron said there was a joke. A plain simple joke.
Bloody Baron got offended or not, we have not gotten one clue from books that could lead us to believe that he knows anything about horcruxes.
2 souls or one soul in Harry would not help us decide what kind of Ghost he would become. :rolleyes: And even if it does, it is completely off the topic here.
I would like to steer the ship back to main topic and see if any reading knowledge can jump up and describe the whole Horcrux creation theory.
Voldemort likes to keep things to himself as we all know. His ultimate desire to get back to Hogwarts always struck me as to some sort of clue lingering in walls of the ancient castle.
 

jsez4444

Time Turners
This is kind of what is tripping me up about when Voldemort went to ask Slughorn about the Horcruxes. We know that this happened after he killed Tom Riddle Sr. and Marvolo because he already has the Ring, and he killed Riddle Sr. first. We also know that both the ring and the diary are Horcruxes, because they were both destroyed as such. So if we are to assume that the murders of Riddle Sr. and Marvolo were both used as "significant murders" and that the diary and ring are the two vessels for the pieces of Voldemort's soul separated by these two murders, and that Horcruxes must be created immediately after a murder is committed then we can only come to one of two conclusions. Either Voldemort already knew how to create Horcruxes and that he already knew he could make more than one when he came to ask Slughorn about them, which raises the question of why he needed to ask Slughorn about it at all, or we are wrong in assuming that the Horcrux must be created immediately following a murder. Either of these conclusions only confuses the issue more.

Originally when I read this thread I held the opinion that Horcruxes must be created immediately after the murder is committed. After reading through a lot of the evidence on both cases I have come to my conclusion above. Which is really not a conclusion at all because I now have no idea what I believe. Please let me know if any of what I said made any sense at all, or if I have assumed a few things that are not true, all of my assumptions were based on information I got from this thread.
 

Glumbumble

Time Turners
1943 was a busy year for Tom Riddle (his fifth year). It was the year that he opened the Chamber of Secrets, resulting in the death of Moaning Myrtle (May), it was the year he received an Award for Special Services to the School (currently in the trophy room and possibly a Horcrux) (June), it was the year he killed his father and grandparents (July/August), it was the year he asked Slughorn about Horcruxes (September -) and it was the year he made his first Horcrux sealing his sixteen year old self into the Diary.
As far as I can see the only Horcrux that can be dated is the Diary and this needed to have been made before New Years Eve 1943.

When Riddle questions Slughorn about Horcruxes he gets agitated and does not give the impression that he knows, at that point, how to complete a Horcrux,
But Riddle's hunger was now apparent; his expression was greedy, he could no longer hide his longing.
"How do you split your soul?"
"Well," said Slughorn uncomfortably, "you must understand that the soul is supposed to remain intact and whole. Splitting n it I an act of violation, it is against nature."
"But how do you do it?"
"By an act of evil — the supreme act of evil. By committing murder. Killing rips the soul apart. The wizard intent upon creating a Horcrux would use the damage to his advantage: He would encase the torn portion —"
"Encase? But how — ?"
"There is a spell, do not ask me, I don't know!" said Slughorn shaking his head like an old elephant bothered by mosquitoes. " Do I look as though I have tried it — do I look like a killer?"

This suggests to me that the Diary was made into a Horcrux some time between September and December, after the conversation with Slughorn. This means that either Horcruxes can be made using a murder committed in the past, in which case he could have used his father/grandparents murder, or he murdered again for the purpose of creating the Horcrux. Personally I feel that the latter explanation is the right one and that his first murders were an act on vengeance on his father.
 
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cagedcactus

Sherbet Lemon
Excellent. Both of you made real good points.
I always had the same thing on my mind. If I choose to believe in the theory that Horcrux creation is not possible once the guilt of murder is not fresh, then the ring didnt become a horcrux with the murder of Tom Riddle Sr.
Here is what I have to say to make a case. Tom wore that ring after he snatched it from Marvolo. If he had made that a horcrux before talking to slughorn, I doubt he would wear it in school in front of so many talented wizards. He would rather hide it somewhere. So I think that diary sealed the horcrux with Tom Riddle Sr. And ring sealed later with another kill once he
confirmed from Slughorn that multiple horcruxes are possible.
I dont expect JKR to come forward and explain this in book 7. Because she would want us to debate and go at it for a while :D
 
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Jenelle

Supreme Mugwump
I agree- we have seen the AK used before but only Voldy has Horcruxes. (Or Did Wormtail create a Horcrux with Cedric? )

Something else, some other step must be necessary.
Maybe only a different mindset: like Unforgivable Curses you have to want a Horcrux for it to work...

Voldemort cant be the only one that has horcurxes...he asked slughorn about it before he made them or atleast made 7 of them so someone has to have done it before him right? I wonder who it was? Grindewald maybe, DD is good at destroying horcruxes and he finally killed him right? sorry off topic.
 

Piper

Time Turners
Jennelle,

I don't think someone else in the past had made more than 1 Horcrux.

I think that Voldemort took a pretty big chance in creating more than 1, because there was no one to advise him on what would happen with more than 1.

I am going to weigh in here for future reference, even though I have given my thoughts on another thread. I think that once the murder is committed, the most supreme act of evil, cold blooded murder, that the Horcrux can be created later. That the rip remains in the soul once you have committed murder, I think unless you do something to redeem yourself. I think as long as you keep all of your soul in your body, you have a chance at redemption still. That is why others who have committed murder do not have the appearance of Voldemort. Their souls are still inside of them, albeit ripped, and there is still a chance they can be forgiven for the murder. Voldemort cannot redeem himself with parts of his soul housed outide of his body. I think there has to be forgivness, or else everyone that ever murdered anyone in the Wizard world would have created Horcruxes. I think unless you truely in your heart regret the murder, then the rip remains and you can make a Horcrux at any time after that from the ripped away portion.

The timeline gives me this idea. Like Glum says above, 1943 was a busy year for Voldemort, In 1943, he murdered the Riddles in July, he returned to Hogwarts and asked Slughorn about Horcruxes in the fall, before he turned 17 on Dec 31, he created the Diary Horcrux. Glum shows all of this in a post above, but Glum thinks that he must have created another murder to make the Diary.

On Page 439 HBP, we see Dumbledore tell Harry that he did not believe Voldemort killed anyone else between the Riddles and Mrs Smith who had the locket and cup.

I can't see JKR having Dumbledore say that if the Horcrux has to be present during the murder, and the spell cast right then. Because Dumbledore knows how Horcruxes are made. Slughorn doesn't know the spell, but Dumbledore does, I think, I can see her having him not say anything at all, but I can't see her having Dumbledore's thought process be based on things that are incorrect. She might mislead us with Dumbledore, but she wouldn't contradict herself with Dumbledore. Especially when she could just have easily left that part out of the text.

I think also that this redemption process is something that is going to play into the real reason why Dumbledore believed that Snape had changed. She has said of the series, "I do not think the books are THAT secular". So I can see a forgivness/redemption angle on the Horizion.
 

cagedcactus

Sherbet Lemon
So you are basically suggesting this.......

Harry goes on and destroys every single horcrux. Then he comes face to face with Voldemort. He tells Voldemort about the fate of his horcruxes, and then tries to kill him/destroy him.

As long as Voldemort has his wand in his hands, or his magic in him, he can not be destoryed. Because he will have all these ripped souls within his body, that he can use to create a quick horcrux before he dies. Thus, as long as he has atleast one ripped soul together with main soul in his body, he can not be killed? :rolleyes: Because as soon as he is cornered and has no chance, he will keep creating horcruxes before dying again, and again, and again.....

Please say it aint so.......
Or Harry is doomed. Wizarding world is doomed....
 

Sirius Potter Fan

Night Patroll
I have to agree CC. That would be frightening . . . unless . . . The spell requires more than a quick incantation, an object, and flick of the wand. As I have stated on another thread quite some time ago, the creation of a Horcrux can neither be quick or simple, or everyone would have one. I do see the redemptive theme Piper, and I do believe that the soul can become whole again for those truley penetant. We have to believe DD on the murders which means that he must have used "old rips" for the horcruxes. What remains to be understood I think, is whether or not Voldemort has control over which ripped peice he uses for what Horcrux. Can he somehow seperate them and "file" them away for placement later on? Otherwise having "special" murders for "special" objects woud be impossible unless you waited to comit the murder till you had the object ready. If Voldemort had say killed 7 times since he had created his last Horcrux, and wanted to use murder #4 for the cup . . .?
 

Piper

Time Turners
Caged,
I think if Harry had destroyed all of the existing Voldemort Horcruxes, and while trying to kill Voldemort, somehow was stupid enough to tell him, "Hey I destroyed all of your Horcruxes" and somehow Voldemort managed to escape, that yes it's possible that he could go off and murder someone else, and create another Horcrux. Or could go off and create another Horcrux from a rip that was already in his soul.

Because we do not know the total number of Horcruxes allowable per person. It could be any number. We think he only wanted 7 because that is the most magically powerful number, but he might rethink that if he is down to zero Horcruxes.

Of course it could be just as possible that there is some Horcrux rule that says once you have made the first Horcrux, you have to have atleast one existing Horcrux to make others. Also remember, Voldemort has no way of knowing either, he's in unchartered waters here. At the time that the AK curse rebounded, he was not certain that his multiple Horcruxes would work.

And I think it would require Voldemort to escape Harry, or atleast get to somewhere where he could concentrate on doing the incredibly long and difficult spell. I think it is very complicated. Not something that could be done while dodging AK Curses.

SPF,
Maybe Voldemort learned very early on that if you let the murders stack up, then you can never really know which murder goes with which Horcrux. Again, you have to remember, he admittedly was just experimenting. Going further than anyone has ever gone before. Maybe that is why Dumbledore figures he did not kill anyone between the Riddles and Mrs. Smith. Dumbledore figures it would matter a great deal to Voldemort who died for which Horcrux. Or maybe details about the person murdered are part of the Horcrux spell.
 

cagedcactus

Sherbet Lemon
Piper,
Harry wont be STUPID to tell Voldemort that his all the horcruxes are destroyed. He would be BRAVE and SMART. He would actually take Voldemort to school of bravery and show him that his days are numbered, by doing that. Can you imagine the fear on Voldemort's face when he learns that all his ripped souls have left the earth for good? Can you imagine the horror he learns that he is no longer immortal? Can you imagine his fury to survive that last battle, or fear of on coming death?
I know one way or another, JKR will manage to show this. She cant miss out on that master stroke....
Think about the effect of this on Death eaters? Their master's dirty secret out, and master is taken to school by a young Harry........
How can JKR even want to miss on that moment.
It is not stupidity. It is bragging rights.....
It is bravery, and very Gryffindorish.......
:D

And now you put all these desperate points together to find a ground for horcrux creation theory...... none of them make sense to me..... I apologize respectfully.......

Are you telling me that as days go by, and murders go by, Voldemort is storing his ripped souls in some kind of storage in his body, and then uses it as he comes across artefacts? WOW........

If the hocrux creation process is so complicated, that it can not be performed at the time of battle, and needs concentration, has it ever occured to you, that how important that killing moment and fresh feeling of murder guilt would be?
If a person commits murder, that soul is ripped right at that moment. And if that person is not a wizard or doesnt store it in a vessel, the feeling doesnt stay same. The ripped soul rejoins the primary soul. The killer will have mamory of that kill.... but the guilt leaves .....
Dumbledore doesnt actually claim on number of murders Tom has under his belt.
He just assumes, to give an idea to Harry.
He is preparing Harry for the rocky road ahead.
 

Piper

Time Turners
Caged,

I think the soul is automatically housed in the body, even when torn, all of the pieces remain inside of the body, automatically unless Horcruxes are made. I think that having tears, a soul divided, is one of the consequences of committing cold blooded murder. That you do not get to have a solid soul after that.

Even if no one sees you commit the murder, if one knows, there is still that consequence, a torn soul. You want to die with a solid soul, and I think there is redemption in this fictional world also. But you have to work for it, I think that the soul does not just reunite automatically after an hour, or a day or a week or any amount of time. The more murders that you commit, the more work you have to do to get all of the soul healed.

This has been my feeling since reading it all the first time. It's just what makes sense to me.

Also, I do not think it matters a bit if Dumbledore is correct or not in his opinion that no murders were committed between the Riddles, and Mrs. Smith. I am only looking at his thought process. Since I believe that Dumbledore knows how Horcruxes are created, I think the fact that he even would entertain the opinion that none were murdered after the Riddles, that none were murdered between the time that Voldemort talked to Slughorn upon returning to school, and New Years Eve 1943, means it's that you can make Horcruxes later, after the moment of the murder.

I believe that it is not the moment of murder that is of significance. It's the torn soul that remains inside of your body that is of significance with Horcrux creation. And you bet, I think it takes concentration to remove part of your soul and encase it into something outside of the body. How could it not? It takes concentration to apparthiate!

Creating a Horcrux is a major move. If it is lost, or destroyed, that means you can never redeem yourself. You are past the point of return, as you cannot die with a complete, solid soul. I will tell you, this is a part that I have a lot of trouble with, but it seems to me to be the way she has written this.
 

cagedcactus

Sherbet Lemon
well, although I have different ideas about that whole creation process, we will probably just have to wait for the book.
My fear is, we may not get our answers even in book 7. Because the hunt of horcruxes may or may not involve the process of it explained while Harry is tracking them down and destroying them.
We will just have to agree on the dis agreement on this topic.......
:D
 

Seeker615

Ghosthunter
It is so complicated and I think maybe JK will not technically explain the whole horcrux process to us.

Like you said Caged, it's open to interpretation so everyone has an opinion on how it works.

My take from reading the books is this:

You set out to commit a murder. (I don't think your soul splits if the murder was self-defense or unintentional) You have to want to commit the murder.

Before you actually do so you have to have something ready to put the piece of your soul into and do a spell to have the object ready to "accept" the soul.

With object ready you committ the deed and your soul splits and the object accepts the soul and it is now a horcrux.

I am leaning toward the idea that an object that is enchanted to accept the horcux will pull the piece of soul that is split out of the body and into the object.

I also think once you make a horcrux your soul will never be whole again.
 

Sirius Potter Fan

Night Patroll
Piper said:
Or maybe details about the person murdered are part of the Horcrux spell.
Take a look at that . . . tucked down in the bottom of a long post I think everyone may have missed it . . . Do you see the pure simple sense in it? Also a perfect tie in with the rebirth. "The bone of the Father . . . The flesh of the servant . . . the blood of the foe . . ." There were specific things needed for rebirth, from specific persons. Does it not make sense that the same would be required for a Horcrux. They are linked are they not?

It even makes more sense with the fact that Voldemort chose articles of significance.
 
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gbogbo

Time Turners
Or maybe details about the person murdered are part of the Horcrux spell.

Take a look at that . . . tucked down in the bottom of a long post I think everyone may have missed it . . . Do you see the pure simple sense in it? Also a perfect tie in with the rebirth. "The bone of the Father . . . The flesh of the servant . . . the blood of the foe . . ." There were specific things needed for rebirth, from specific persons. Does it not make sense that the same would be required for a Horcrux. They are linked are they not?

It even makes more sense with the fact that Voldemort chose articles of significance.



WOW!!! This is a really interesting twist. Piper...truly awesome insight! Nice catch there Sirius Potter Fan

Might this imply that the murdered person needs to have a connection to the horcrux item? For exmaple, would an heir of Slytherin need to be murdered if the horcrux item was once owned by Salazar Slytherin? The mind simply reels...
 
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cagedcactus

Sherbet Lemon
I dont think so.
I think that notion was more towards the darker depths of Horcrux creation itself, than relation between the killer, the vessel, and the victim.
Voldemort has three horcruxes that are slytherin connected. The locket, the ring and the diary. He might have nagini as possible 4 (the serpent logic).
I dont think he has killed anyone in slytherin himself atleast. RAB was killed, but Sirius thinks that he didnt die at the hands of Voldemort.
 

gbogbo

Time Turners
I dont think so.
I think that notion was more towards the darker depths of Horcrux creation itself, than relation between the killer, the vessel, and the victim.
Voldemort has three horcruxes that are slytherin connected. The locket, the ring and the diary. He might have nagini as possible 4 (the serpent logic).
I dont think he has killed anyone in slytherin himself atleast. RAB was killed, but Sirius thinks that he didnt die at the hands of Voldemort.

Murdered Slytherin Heirs: 2 Grandparents & his Father:D
 
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