If Ginny had died ...

Alz

Administrator
Staff member
JKR said:
In "COS" what would of happen if Ginny Died and Tom Riddle escaped the Diary?

JKR: I can't answer that until all 7 books are finished BUT it would have strenthened the present day voldemort considerably.

My ohh my, that is a great question and an even better answer!

So many questions - anyone want to get us started?
 

Tinkerbell

Time Turners
I think that had Ginny died in CoS, we would have seen the war against Voldemort start much earlier than the beginning of OotP (or end of GoF, whichever way you want to see it!)

And if Tom Riddle was 'alive and well' would Voldemort, as the 'non human/living/mortal being' we know and hate, even exist?

Most certainly the Weasley family would never be the same again if their only daughter/sister had died.
 

Kingsley

Time Turners
Thats weird because I just thought that there would be both Riddle and Voldemort if that happened
Anyway I think that Riddle being one of the precautions of Voldemort dying does of course say more if Riddle were allowed to live--but what would have happened--he would have had his own body--would the other Voldemort spirit find its way into Riddle's body?
 

Alz

Administrator
Staff member
My question is simple, how would the manifestation of 'soul' caught in a diary make a re-born Voldemort stronger?
Voldemort's soul was 'in hiatus' after the night of the Potters attack, we know how it lived until Pettigrew made him a substitute body and then he was reborn ...
In CoS the 'spirit' of Riddle would have been given a true persona if he had succeeded in killing Ginny ...

How could the 2 what look like separate entities help each other to be stronger?
 

Tinkerbell

Time Turners
The more I read it, the more confusing it seems to be! However you look at it, it would seem that there would be two separate beings - Voldemort and Riddle, so how, as Blaise says, can Riddle's memory, had it become corporeal (to use a Potter expression!) be 'integrated' into Voldemort? Anyone who can explain this to a bit of a dunderhead, it would be greatly appreciated!
 

Alz

Administrator
Staff member
I like to look at it this way ....

The 'essence' in the diary was separate from the 'spirit' of Voldemort that was floating around post Potter attack ...
If with the diary and essence, Riddle had succeeded, then he would have been born from this as a full form and living Riddle ...
With the post Potter attack spirit we know that actually was re-born in GoF ...

So JKR validates that both 'things' could have lived and if the 'diary essence' was added to the re-born Voldemort it would have made him even stronger ....

What I see is one is Riddle and one is Voldemort ... now how interesting is that!
 

Lily

Wingardium Leviosa
Maybe it involves - our favourite - time.

Riddle would obviously be from the past. And Voldemort is from the present. If Riddle had been brought back to life (and I am on the theory that Voldemort and Riddle are two different entities... so if Riddle was brought back, you would have Riddle and Voldemort (revived in the GoF)).

With the powers of the past and the powers of the future, they must somehow combine to give a strong, strong patnership. And maybe that is what JK means. The past must hold something for Voldemort to make him even stronger than what we see him now (after his revival in GoF) and maybe that is part of his quest in Book 6 and Book 7 - to go back in time to change something... Maybe Voldemort, in his past, did something to make him less strong.. and this 'something' may involve Lily Potter. Tom Riddle in CoS wouldn't have met Lily yet...
 

Alz

Administrator
Staff member
But the contradiction in this is that Voldemort that was ressurected in GoF was the Riddle/Voldemort - his essence and being was still contained in spiritual form until Pettigrew ressurected him ...

For me - that Riddle that was reborn if he succeded would have been a different entity to the other Voldemort - perhaps Voldemort had this 'version' of him gifted with extra's ... it seems like this was one of his steps taken long ago - as such perhaps he enhanced this version of him?
He would have been gifted with one thing - knowledge of the future ... because if Voldemort did use this as a step to ensure his survival the 'step' would have been aware of what was going to happen in the future - but I dont think he could have made any changes because this 'entity' would have been real time ...
Does that make any sense?
 

catchthesnitch

Curious Yellow
I think I understand about the knowledge of the future thing, but it was my understanding that Tom Riddle in the diary learned all about Harry and what happened with Voldemort's downfall from what Ginny Weasley told him in the diary.

That's why Tom Riddle's "target" changed from the original plan of killing muggle borns to eliminating Harry Potter. Because he learned from Ginny that Harry survivied Voldemort's attack and left Voldemort powerless.

Maybe the diary was a semi-planned way for the 16 year old Tom Riddle Memory to learn about the future.?

CTS
 

Alz

Administrator
Staff member
OK, Ginny would refer to the people Voldemort and Harry Potter ... both names will be unknown to Tom Riddle ...
Under your scenario - he wouldnt know anything about the future - ergo those names mean nothing to him - he had no reason to want to target Harry as he had no inclination.
I think that Riddle, armed with future knowledge just wanted to re-birth - so get Ginny killed.
But then when she started to talk about Harry - he then adjusted because he had the potential to kill 2 birds with one stone as it were ...
If he was being ressurected he knew he was dead - he would also know that the person with the power to vanquish him was a Harry Potter - 2 and 2 - he was dead, Harry must be alive - Ginny can bring him ... all good :)
 

catchthesnitch

Curious Yellow
I beg to differ. The name Voldemort was well known to Tom Riddle when he was sixteen years old, and when his memory was preserved in that fateful diary.

What about the whole "Tom Marvolo Riddle -- I am Lord Voldemort" thing? And Ginny, knowing the hero she thought Harry was would have told Tom all about Harry being the "boy who lived." and that Harry survived an attack by Lord Voldemort when he was just a baby.

Based on what Ginny told him, that's why he wanted to target Harry. Because Ginny told him that Harry defeated him! "How can a baby, with no extraordinary magical powers....defeat the greatest wizard who ever lived?" or something like that.
 

Weasleyfanforever

Time Turners
I have to go with CTS on this one:

CoS said:
"Why do you care how I escaped?" said Harry slowly. "Voldemort was
after your time ......
"Voldemort," said Riddle softly, "is my past, present, and future, Harry
Potter . . . ."
He pulled Harry's wand from his pocket and began to trace it through the air, writing three shimmering words:

TOM MARVOLO RIDDLE

Then he waved the wand once, and the letters of his name rearranged themselves:

I AM LORD VOLDEMORT

"You see?" he whispered. "It was a name I was already using at Hogwarts, to my most intimate friends only, of course. You think I was going to use my filthy Muggle father's name forever? I, in whose veins runs the blood of Salazar Slytherin himself, through my mother's side? I, keep the name of a foul, common Muggle, who abandoned me even before I was born, just because he found out his wife was a witch? No, Harry - I fashioned myself a new name, a name I knew wizards everywhere would one day fear to speak, when I had become the greatest sorcerer in the world!"
 

Alz

Administrator
Staff member
OK, lets look at this again ...

His name was Tom Riddle - there is nothing to assume that indeed his middle name wasnt Marvolo ... so as such it wasnt like he made up the name to have a pretty anagram - it was his name ...
Chance are - later in life when he really wanted to dump his muggle name and start on the evil path - he then figured out his pretty anagram ...

IF, and indeed this is an IF, Voldemort did travel back in time - he could have passed on all the details you are talking about ...

I just dont see what would have got Ginny talking about Harry and especially Voldemort - a name most kids have grown up not allowed to utter ...
I disagree as well :)
 

catchthesnitch

Curious Yellow
I don't have my book with me right now, but my gosh, why wouldn't Ginny be talking about Harry?! According to Ron, Harry's all she talked about the entire summer before and it got Ron all bored! Harry was her crush! Little eleven year old girls just blossoming in boy stuff -- if they have a crush it's all they talk about. Idol worship! Hero worship! Eleven year old girls are famous for it.

Ginny was smitten with Harry her first year, and if Tom/Diary was trying to lull Ginny into a sense of comfort and ability to talk to it, wouldn't he show an interest in the unrequited love Ginny had for Harry then? The crush? I know when I was a girl I wrote in my diary all about my crushes -- the diary just didn't write back to me.

Maybe there's a misunderstanding here, but my bottom line is that 16 year old Tom did not know about Harry Potter and Voldemort's death until Ginny told him about it in the diary. That's when Tom changed his "target" from killing the muggle borns like Herminone, Justin, and Penelope to finding Harry.
 

catchthesnitch

Curious Yellow
Ok, this post is going to be a slew of quotes, but in light of Blase's and my conversation yesterday, when I didn't have my book, there's a need to put up these quotes.

The debate in essence was how Tom Riddle's diary found out about Harry and the defeat of Voldemort when Harry was one year old. I think (but I'm not certainly limiting it to this) that Ginny told The Diary about it. While it may not be the only way he found out, it certainly is one of them. Blaise questioned why Ginny would tell the Diary about Harry and LV. Well, here it is, right from the Riddle's mouth:

CoS Chapter 17, The Heir of Slytherin

Ginny's been writing in it for months and months, telling me .... how she didn't think the famous, good, great Harry Potter would ever like her ... It's very boring, having to listen to the silly little troubles of an eleven year old girl ... but I was patient, I wrote back. I was sympathetic, I was kind. Ginny loved me.

Well, you see, Ginny told me all about you, Harry,' said Riddle. "Your whole fascinating history." His eyes roved over the lightning scar on Harry's forehead and their expression grew hungrier. "I knew I must find out more about you, talk to you, meet you if I could . . ."

But I wasn't going to wast those long years I'd spent searching for it. I decided to leave behind a diary, preserving my sixteen year old self in its pages, so that one day, with luck, I would be able to lead another in my footsteps and finish Salazar Slytherin's noble work.

For many months now, my new target has been --- you.

From everything Ginny had told me about you, I knew you would go to any lengths to solve the mystery -- particularly if one of your best friends was attacked. And Ginny had told me the whole school was buzzing because you could speak Parseltongue...

I have many questions for you, Harry Potter.....Well, how is it that you -- a skinny boy with no extraordinary magical talent -- managed to defeat the greatest wizard of all time? How did you escape with nothing but a scar, while Lord Voldemort's powers were destroyed?

How did you survive? Tell me everything. The longer you talk, the longer you stay alive...but after all, it was merely a lucky chance that saved you from me. That's all I wanted to know.

But then, I also think there's some in here that supports Blase's time-travel theory. The line "That's all I wanted to know" especially says something to me about a circular event where the diary would, if Harry hadn't sunk the basilisk fang into the book, inform Voldemort about Harry and tell him either to kill him (to start the circle) or not to kill him to prevent his downfall.

And how did Tom know that Voldemort was the greatest wizard of all time?

but the point is -- Ginny did tell Tom about the events 11 years prior, and in the CoS Tom is grilling Harry for the information to complete the picture.
 

Alz

Administrator
Staff member
ummm - interesting :D
OK, I discussed your findings with you earlier - and yep, you have proved your point on that quite well - but me still thinks there is a time element to this ... but time will tell .. get it ;)

When we move project chapter by chapter onto CoS - I think I really need to read the whole book again :eek:

Nice one CTS - you made your point in an excellent manner!
 

kashlie

afraid of my own shadow
Sorry to bring this one up by I find it a fearfull fascinating subject!!

If Ginny had died, the diary essence of Riddle would have seeked out the 'spirit' of Voldemort and found a way to join again. Thus becoming powerful again, in a healthy 16 year old body, with all the knowledge he needs in an instant.

I think JKR ruled out that anyone had been time travelling, so that just leaves it to Ginny and arrogance on Riddle's part, that Harry defeated 'the greatest wizard of all time'. What Ginny most likely described as awful, Riddle would have thought was wonderful.
I have come to the conclusion that Riddle asked a lot of questions of Ginny, especially when she told him that Harry defeated Lord Voldemort and is now famous. He would have wanted to know everything, so he was prepared when the time came to kill Ginny.

You have to wonder, then, if Ginny had died and 16 year old Riddle is free of the diary, what happens next? What about Harry? Would he have been left for dead or defeated? Riddle would want to make sure he died.

Then Riddle has to get out of the Chamber. He wouldn't be likely to go out through the bathroom, so there has to be another way out.

And (omg) his plan with the diary was to get someone to continue Slytherin's work. Which means Salazar Slytherin used the Chamber (der) but which also means that there would have to be weapons and 'secrets' and other such dangerous things hidden in the Chamber.

The chain reaction to Ginny dying is astronomical, but the question can be answered without seeing her die. They will just have to go back into the Chamber :)
 

Norbert

Time Turners
What would have happened if Ginny had died?

Now that we know that the Diary was a Horcrux, I firmly beleive that the 16 year old Voldemort would have sought out the 'Spirit' in Albania and the two would have joined, present day spirit Voldy entering 16 yr old Voldemorts body - If that were possible... Can portions of souls that have been separated be rejoined?

Or, after 16 yr old Tom Riddle helps Voldemort conjure his own body, would the two halves get together and play rock/paper/scissors in order to determine which one of them would have to become sealed in an inatimate object to become a Horcrux again?

Either way the re-birth would have taken place sooner - sans wormtail!
 

kashlie

afraid of my own shadow
if ginny had have died....

it was a long time ago that i posted in this thread!
now i believe, with each Horcrux Voldemort gets back, he gets more powerful. Hence why i now think that if ginny had died, you'd have a young, fit, wizard with all his potential still there, PLUS part of the older, *wiser* and more evil Voldemort, who would then also search out his other Horcuxes...which i now also believe were all made in the ten years between him leaving Borgin and Burkes and going to visit Dumbledore for the teaching position...
but i digress...
i still agree with what i said before, that it would have wreaked havoc on Hogwarts had Ginny died, and i do believe there is more to the chamber than what we have seen. i also think there is more to it than Voldemort just killing Harry right then and there, if it deserves a mention in book 7 ;)
 

Alz

Administrator
Staff member
Actually - I just had a brain wave ...
What is JKR's enigmatic comment about waiting until book 7 had to do with the ability to re-absorb the soul portions removed via horcruxes?
Think about it - if Voldemort was able to ingest this portion with his current soul portion - it would be like having two strong, mature pieces of soul for the price of one!
 
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