Is harry capable of murder?

happy_hannah

Time Turners
This idea just popped into my head like a slap in the face. I think that harry though seeking revenge is not really capable of murder, and i also think that j.k would not want our hero to become one, even for voldemort to be killed. J.k's message has always been 'love' above all else, that's the power harry has over voldemort. (and this is why harry cant die, he just cant! otherwise it would mean hate triumphing over love)
So this is my theory, is it possible that harry could be in the position to kill voldemort and choose not to? would voldemort be in his debt then?
And with the wormtail owing harry a debt, does this imply that he has to die for harry or that he just owes him a favour? can harry ask him to kill voldemort for him?
 

Arwan

Time Turners
I think the story may come full circle and someone not sure who but one of the many people that love Harry will step in and their willingness to die for Harry will cause another rebound on to Voldemort ultimately killing him.

But here is another thought, by Harry already destroying one Horcrux and intending to destroy the others, does this not already make him a killer since he destroyed part(s) of someones soul thus being Voldemorts?
 

Seeker615

Ghosthunter
Dumbledore saying that there are worse things than death always sticks with me.

It may be possible that Harry will not actually kill Voldemort but render him a useless non-magical being. Possibly leave him without any magical abilities and no way of obtaining them again.

That would be pretty awesome!
 

Glumbumble

Time Turners
I think that the first thing to concentrate on is that the prophecy does not say that Harry will kill Voldemort.

The Prophecy said:
`The one with the power to vanquish the- Dark Lord approaches…
born to those who have thrice defied him, born as the seventh month dies …
and the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal, but he will have power the Dark Lord knows not …
and either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives …
the one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord will be born as the seventh month dies …'

It says that Harry will have the power to vanquish Voldemort not that he will.

The curious statement is "and either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives" because throughout the series they have survived together, albeit Voldermort was in his Volderghiest form for much of it. The statement cannot be taken literally but is clearly significant. Does it mean that neither will be happy while the other lives? Does it mean neither can be free while the other survives? Freedom and living seem to go together quite well to my mind.

JKR has often spoken of her fears that her stories may be carried on by other authors if she does not conclude the series effectively.

We know that there has been repeats of the battle between good and evil in the wizarding world throughout time. Dumbledore and Grindelwald for example. Maybe the cycle needs to be stopped in a different way this time and maybe that does not involve killing.

It is Dumbledore who says "Kill him, of course you must kill him" and that is the way he resolved the problem of Grindelwald. I think that there must be another way that prevents the cycle repeating and prevents another author continuing the stories. How awful would it be for the cycle to be stopped by ending the magical world:eek: What a thought, the whole magical world becoming muggles to prevent the birth of another dark lord.
 

Alz

Administrator
Staff member
I think we have a similar discussion elsewhere about this topic?
I think my general feelings were that to have Harry be a cold hearted killer such as the person he seeks to destroy would seem out of place.
For a 'feel good' feeling it would be nice Harry rids Voldemort without having to resort to cold blooded murder. This is what clearly separates him and Voldemort - Voldemort would kill, kill and kill again just for the fun of it - Harry on the other hand is almost the shining light of goodness.
To have him bloody his hands the same as Voldemort would be akin to almost passing along the torch to another.
I think the wording of the prophecy points towards the fact that Harry will not have to kill him, merely lead him along a path of self destruction!
 

Rory

Time Turners
I keep thinking about DD's line to LV at the fight in the ministry;
"Merely taking your life would not satisfy me...."
Dumbledore still wants LV's redemption. Not his death.
 

Alz

Administrator
Staff member
Umm - I read that as a true indicator of where Dumbledore can go given the right direction and past history - we know Dumbledore doesn't wish ill on anyone but when he uttered those words and the first time I read them, I got a cold shiver and it has been in my signature ever since!
 

tobias

Time Turners
I do not think Harry will have to murder Voldy.

Presuming Harry to be the Final Horcrux, when Harry goes after the physical body of Voldy the spirit of Voldy will then go to Harry. OotP proved that love in Harry drove out the possessing Voldemort. If the possessing Voldemort has no where else to go he is destroyed. Harry's ability to love will force Voldemort to suicide.

Then we have a Harry who has not murdered, and a Voldemort gone.



And I always read the "Merely ending your life..." as a wish for redemption for Tom- like Rory said above. Although, it might be poetic if Voldemort is stripped of his power and given Filch's job...
 

Sirius Potter Fan

Night Patroll
tobias said:
And I always read the "Merely ending your life..." as a wish for redemption for Tom- like Rory said above. Although, it might be poetic if Voldemort is stripped of his power and given Filch's job...

I agree with you on that part tobias, I think Dumbledore's good heart will always seek to bring redemption from those on the dark path. Just look at his efforts with Malfoy. Efforts that may yet work. And, I don't think Dumbledore ever gives up on anyone.

My only comment on your theory of how Voldemort is killed, belongs in another thread titled "Harry is NOT a Horcrux!" ;)

I do believe that harry will vanquish the Dark Lord without commiting murder. too much has been made of his ability to love, and I don't see that meaning that when those he loves are killed that he will act in anger and revenge.
 

Alz

Administrator
Staff member
It's a lot smarter plot ending to have Voldemort removed via other methods that having Harry resort to exactly the same means as what his nemesis does.

If I had to choose a target for Harry to kill, it would be Snape - he has all the hatred and passion to see off Snape - afterall Voldemort has caused Harry pain in the past but Snape has been Harry's haunting since coming into the wizarding world - the real irony of this is that Snape has been helping him out all along and Harry will only realize this once he has dealt Snape the fatal blow!

Harry is capable of murder - but his target would appear to be the discussion point - he wont kill Voldemort directly, that much seems certain!
 

Rory

Time Turners
At the end of OotP Harry trys the Cruciatus Curse on Bellatrix.
She tells him that his "righteous anger" won't hurt her for long. That to use those curses you have to "enjoy" hurting others. Harry believes that Snape betrayed his parents. He thinks he saw Snape kill DD. This is still more along the lines of 'righteous anger.' Even when Harry found out that Wormtail HAD betrayed Lily and James, Harry didn't want Sirius to kill Wormtail. So, I don't see Harry killing anyone - unless as flat out self defense. But even then, not an AK, but GG's sword perhaps.
 

Sirius Potter Fan

Night Patroll
Harry and co. have allways shown their courage through their own creativity. I agree that this won't end in cold blooded murder. I do think that it must end with Voldemort gone for good however. And this right here is exactly why there is so much security around this book. I think there isn't one person who believes that Harry will fail his destiny to vanquish Voldemort. but Vanquish is a word that JKR very carefully used in the prophecy.

Webster's New World Dictionary said:
Vanquish - 1. to conquer or defeat in battle. 2. a)to defeat in any conflict. b)to overcome, suppress

The word does not mention death. You may defeat or conquer someone without killing them. But how? That is what we all want to know! The only real clue we have, is that mysterious power that is studied in the DoM . . . Love.

I think Harry is prepared to kill Voldemort, as that is in his mind, the only way he knows to get rid of him, I think he believes that he wants to Kill Voldemort, but somehow it won't happen that way.
 

Alz

Administrator
Staff member
I think Harry believe he has to kill Voldemort - not that he wants to ... That is the gripper on this point, he doesn't have the stomach for it when it comes down to it.
Snape - yeah, I think he could drag up enough hatred considering all the years of mental abuse from Snape plus all the factors he was contributing towards for his parents and then finally seeing Snape kill Dumbledore - I think there is a lot more intention there than Voldemort ... Voldemort he is told he has to kill but in effect he hasn't had the same impression on Harry as Snape.
 
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