Missing Shadow?

Alz

Administrator
Staff member
OK - in GoF at the end when we had the Priori Incantem moment ... we saw a few instances of the last spells performed by Voldemort's wand ...
We saw a few people as well as Pettigrews hand ....

My question - why didnt we see a shadow for the spell that Voldemort supposdly attacked Harry with and lead to his downfall?

It should have appeared just before Lily ....

We know that Priori Incantem isnt all about killings - we saw it used at the start of GoF when seeing who sent the dark mark up at the Quidditch World cup ... and also saw Pettigrews hand come out at the start of the sequence that lead to the shadows ....

Has to be a reason no - please help shed some light!
 

Nagini

Time Turners
My first thoughts on this was that it wouldn't show that spell, but then I realised that of course it should have shown that spell. Nice pick up Blaise. :)

The Priori Incantem spell should have shown the hand, Harry/Voldemort then Lily etc. The only reason I can think of for it not showing, is that the spell did not do the job it set out to do - kill Harry. So perhaps the Priori Incantem spell only shows actions that the wand peformed sucessfully?

One other thing that might not mean anything but which I thought about, was the particular order in which the spell had people coming out of the wand had been wrong in some books and it was put down as an error. What if this was a diversion? Although I dont recall JKR saying anything about the wand shadows being important, so I am probably just being suspcious. :p
 

Weasleyfanforever

Time Turners
I am really liking the idea that matbe it was the spell on Lily that caused the Harry/Voldemort effect. No one really know that he survived AK that night, it is just hearsay and specualtion, unless someone was there that night that came forward, that we have just not been told about yet... Even Voldemort does not say that Harry survived the AK:
Voldemort said:
His mother died in the attempt to save him - and unwittingly provided him with a protection I admit I had not foreseen. ... I could not touch the boy." Voldemort raised one of his long white fingers and put it very close to Harry's cheek.
"His mother left upon him the traces other sacrifice. . . . This is old magic, I should have remembered it, I was foolish to overlook it... but no matter. I can touch him now."
Harry felt the cold tip of the long white finger touch him, and thought his head would burst with the pain. Voldemort laughed softly in his ear, then took the finger away and continued addressing the Death Eaters.
"I miscalculated, my friends, I admit it. My curse was deflected by the woman's foolish sacrifice, and it rebounded upon myself.

What I am wondering though is, Why would the spell on Lily have caused this reaction? Could Lily have made a deal with Voldemort, as in You Kill me, and let the baby live, and he agreed, thinking at the time that he wouldn't have to honor it because she would be dead. So when he attempted to AK her, it did two things, it put a protection on Harry because of the deal as well as motherly protection, but the spell on Lily backfired after killing and hit Voldemort because he didn't really plan on honoring it... The only thing thathas me at a loss though would be the injury to Harry, unless that is a physical manifestation of either Lily's sacrifice, or Voldemort's broken promise... I am thinking that maybe this is way too out there :eek: :p
 

Boing

Pops in randomly
I think Nagini and WFF bring up interesting points.

I like the idea of the spell backfiring so because it didn't work you wouldn't see the person it had tried to effect.

But, on the other hand, WFF makes an interesting point that perhaps Harry got his scar from Voldemort attacking his mom . . . I am thinking that perhaps not on this one only because I thought I remembered reading somewhere that Voldemort actually talks about trying to kill Harry and it backfiring. Probably in the DE circle in GoF - I'll have to go back and check that out. Good thoughts, though!
 

Tonks

Unspeakable
I'm really liking Gin's idea here. The wand shadows are the results of each spell, so if the spell/curse was never completed, than no result could be shown. I suppose that you could argue that Voldemort's downfall from power was a result of the backfired curse, but there isn't really a visible result.

Perhaps when the curse backfired, it went through Voldemort's wand, and had a weird reaction with the wand, resulting in it kind of being erased from the wand's memory, in such a way that it "never occurred".
 

Nagini

Time Turners
Isn't it strange that when Voldemort performed the AK curse on Harry, (I am more or less sure that he did this after Lily died as it showed that in one of the films.) that the spell backfired because of his mothers protection. Then, years later Voldemort and Harry meet face to face for a duel and what should happen, but Harry's wand comes to his rescue to force Voldemorts wand to backfire on Voldemort again!
 

Alz

Administrator
Staff member
The significance is this really - trying to get a better understanding of what happened ...
If there was no wand shadow for the AK spell that Voldemort was suppose to have cursed at Harry ... then we start to look at stuff like above - in so much that the spell that got Voldemort and Harry was the curse aimed at Lily ...
I still think that even thou the AK spell didnt do as intended - it was still cast - as such Voldemort's wand should have a shadow of it ... as I said above priori incantem isnt about seeing who has been killed ect - it is about seeing the spells cast from the wand ...
 

Weasleyfanforever

Time Turners
I am not saying that the AK spell wasn't cast, I am just saying that it wasn't cast at Harry. If Voldemort and Lily had made a deal, and Voldemort didn't intend to keep the promise to Lily after he killed her, when he tried to AK her, it did kill her, but also attempted to kill him, because he didn't intend to keep the promise.

I think that it is possible that it was the curse on Lily that did the damage. I think the events could play out like this:

Voldemort makes a deal with Lily, her life instead of her sons. He agrees, although doesn't intend to keep the promise once Lily is dead.

He then casts AK at Lily, it does it's job in killing her, but then rebounds back on him. Since Voldemort is not fully human, it kills his body and heads for the nearest soul that it can take: enter Harry.

The curse hits Harry, but is nowhere near as strong as it should be, having been meant for one person, and having already killed one, and destroyed another. It hits Harry in the forehead and gives him a scar that links his soul with that who's body (but not soul) it destroyed: Voldemort
 

Alz

Administrator
Staff member
:eek:Wow :eek:
You know what - I LIKE IT :D

That is really quite something right ... would explain how the spell that cannot be blocked or rebounded did just that!
I can see your reasoning because of him going from first asking Lily to stand aside to her being killed by him ... and of course would explain the missing shadow ... it was all one curse and indeed it wasnt aimed at Harry but at Lily ....
What could be the significance of that - we are always lead to belive he killed Lily and then turned to kill Harry ... if this wasnt the case - could we assume he was actually going to Kill Harry?
Perhaps - just maybe - this could be another DiE moment ... ;)
 

Kingsley

Time Turners
So are you saying that there isnt a Voldemort or Harry shadow because it never got that far in the first place?
I like the thought of the spell never working so it was never repeated
A deal with Lily would make her sound bad wouldnt it---Jkr would say who dare you

I always thought there would be a scar shaped shadow personally
 

Alz

Administrator
Staff member
There has to be a shadow - the spell left the wand in correct order - it was what happened once it was let loose that is the mystery ...
I'm not convinced it requires the spell to complete to be classed as successful - and even if this was the case Voldemort kind of died that night.
I think the act of conjuring it was enough to justify the shadow - it was executed but just the result was umpredicted - well at least to Voldemort!
 

Brycen05

Time Turners
Maybe there would have been a shadow, but the connection between Harry and Voldemort stopped it from happening. Think of it this way, remember that Harry and Voldemort had brother wands, but there was some kind of power of the shadow that would have been, and that, in actuality is what caused the priori incantum in the first place, so there was not necessarily a missing shadow, but the energy it already released prevented it from visibly making itself known.
 

Alz

Administrator
Staff member
Well only argument to that would be because we saw shadows emerge in order ...
As in from latest uses backwards ...
Priori Incantem was already taking place when the shadow of Voldemort's spell that tried to kill Harry should have been cast ...
Also - remeber the spell would have been cast - ergo it was successful - the effect post casting is still up for debate - but in essence we are lead to believe AK was called - AK was cast - and AK was released from the wand - it is just what happened as it hit Harry that we are all wondering about :)
 

yarvelling

Time Turners
Was it really the Priory Incantatum that caused the shadows to be pulled from Voldemorts' wand? Harry never actually cast the spell; the wands themselves seemed to be duelling, almost independant of their owners, battling their own powers against one another, pushing and pulling the beam and pulses of light between themselves... It was when Harrys' wand forced the light pulse back onto Voldemorts' wand that the shadows emerged, and these shadows were explained as being the shadows of those who had died due to the spells cast, not the actual spell itself: remember in the woods just after the Quidditch World Cup, where we first encountered Priory Incantatum, a smokey shadow of the spell itself was revealed.
During the duel between Harry and Voldemort we saw the fatal RESULTS of the spells, hence the shadows of those who had perished; thus, we would not see Petigrews' hand come out, as it in itself was not an individual living entity, and we would not of course see the curse that was aimed at harry as a baby (because we weren't seeing the spells, just the results...) 'cause Harry didn't die!
I really do think that Harry's wand was pretty much acting on its' own at this point, and would have had it's own kind of idea as to how to defeat it's brother! And remember also, that it contains a phoenix feather, and at this point of the duel, Harry could hear the song of Fawkes....thus, I think that Harry's wand was channeling the power of Dumbledore somehow, through his familiar, Fawkes....
 

Alz

Administrator
Staff member
It is assumed more than confirmed or otherwise the brother wands once connected did an almost PI moment ...
There is no doubts that the shadows we see emerge are those of the last spells of Voldemort's wand ...
I think the whole earlier PI moment during the Quidditch World cup was setting the stage for this effect later on - to attribute it and explain it ...
Harry hears a Phoenix - there is no evidence to show that Voldemort didnt hear it as well - it cant be the core fighting back because otherwise it wouldnt have allowed him to perform those killing curses etc in the first place ...
If these are the feathers of Fawkes - he lost contol of any power they held once they were extracted ... IMHO :)
 

Boing

Pops in randomly
Perhaps the Priori Incantatem is just something that happens when two brother wands end up in a duel and have spells cast at the same moment - the collide and the effect of the collision could depend on the contents of the wands - perhaps hair taken from the same unicorn might do something completely different.

As for the shadows coming out - it is a tough call. It seems as though the argument for a successful spell is what we've all narrowed it down to - so, here are the arguments:

One - the shadows were all the result of "successful" spells being cast and success might be defined as having the effect the person casting expected/desired. So, in that case, Voldemort's loss of his body was not what he was expecting/desired, so it doesn't count as a successful spell. In this argument, his shadow shouldn't be there as the spell was not successful.

Two - the shadows were the result of successful spells and here success is defined as the spell reaching a target and having an effect - not necessarily the one that was desired. So, in this case, we would consider Voldemort's spell to have been successful. And, we would also expect to see his shadow emerge from the wand.

So, that's what I've gleaned from the previous posts - now I guess it's up to everyone to choose what they think the right argument is and have at it! :D
 

Kingsley

Time Turners
There are certain spells that wouldnt show as a shadow--spells like crucio or expelliarmus wont produce a shadow and neither should an unsuccessful spell wear a scar was given--
But yes I do agree it has to happen for successful spells at least :cool:
 

kashlie

afraid of my own shadow
I like the idea of the spell rebounding also. All Lily would have had to have done was say 'Take me instead', whilst touching Harry, for it to be effective. BUT that would make the prophecy null and void, because it is Harry that Voldemort needed to kill. But again, the spell could have rebounded because of the prophecy. Harry first had to be marked as equal, but to fulfill the prophecy, has to come of age so as to challenge Voldemort.

In attempting to kill Harry with AK, Voldemort was setting the prophecy in motion. When Voldemort killed Lily, after the 'deal', and he cast AK on Harry, the reason there was no shadow could be that the spell wasn't actually cast, but in fact his 'deal' prevented the wand from doing anything except scarring Harry (or else the AK travelled up the wand backwards, and the reverse of the spell hit Harry...the power the wizard uses from his self to cast it)...and that is what passed some of Voldemort into Harry.




Man I hope you can follow that!!
 

Alz

Administrator
Staff member
See once again I feel that the spell was delivered correctly - it may not have achieved it's purpose but was delivered fine - it made a connection and in a round about way did almost kill someone - maybe not the direct target but still.
i think since the spell was executed correctly it should have shown - the side effect post casting would be irrelvant to me ;)
 

Norbert

Time Turners
I'm going to chalk this one up to JKR simply overlooking a few things. This point of the story line is a major climax - not just in book 4 but in the entire series. Harry duelling with Voldemort, the brother wands happening to PI, Harry seeing (and talking to) his parents... I think that this was something she had already planned out in her mind since PS/SS! I think that JKR would have been so excited while writing this chapter that she could not make her pen travel as quickly as her mind at the time. She would have been having a writers explosion of sorts.

The release of GOF was much anticipated, it had taken JKR far longer between releases this time than ever before and I think that possibly the proof reading process was somewhat rushed... My copy of the book has James coming out of the wand before Lily - an outstanding oversight which was corrected later. I find that the whole Graveyard sequence is full of questionable items such as:

I beleive that during the PI (beyond the shadows of the victims) we see a shadow of Wormtails hand, and some screaming to repersent the various torturing curses inflicted by Voldemort. However I am pretty sure that we are not seeing everthing that has come from this wand over the past thirteen years...

What about the tortuing spells and memory charm cracking spells cast by Voldemort on Bertha Jorkins? Why was Bertha's shadow not a blabering idoit due to her memory being first altered and then forcibly extracted by Voldemort? What about any curses used during the overtaking of Barty Crouch Sr.? Was it Voldemort or Wormtail putting the Imperious curse on BC Sr? How about spells used in the overtaking attack against Mad-Eye-Moody? Was Voldemort not present during that attack? I have a tough time believing that BC Jr. and Wormtail were enough of a match to overpower Moody!? Surely Voldemort used his wand for something then? Was Voldemorts wand not used for anything in preparation for his rebirth? Did Voldemort have his wand during his possession of Quirrell? Was it not used to kill a unicorn or two?

And last but not least - The way I read it, it was Wormtail who killed Cedric upon Voldemorts command! In OOTP Neville couldn't use Herminonies wand to perform spells that he had mastered in DA, so how could Wormtail (not a very accomplished Wizard) use one of the most powerful wands in the wizarding world to perform the AK curse??? If Wormtail used Big V's wand for this, surely he used it for other spells like the Imperious curse on BC Sr and the attack of Moody etc... Why did a shadow of Cedric even come out of Voldemorts wand?

I beleive that many of the spells cast from that wand were probably overlooked and not represented simply due to the mad rush to produce what was IMHO the best chapters of the series so far... And the curse which produced the scar on Harry's forehead was one of them.
 
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