Petunia

[Arwan]

okay bear with me a minute

Let say that petunia is the one who discovers magic later in life. Which would change her from muggle to witch, not unlike other muggle children before they find out that they are magic.

What do you think JKR plans for her to do, it must be something important, and I'm pretty sure it has something to do with Harry and Voldemort.

I would love to hear any thoughts.

 

[Glumbumble]

JKR has already said that that will not be the case.

Aunt Petunia will start exhibiting magical tendencies

No, she won't. Aunt Petunia has never performed magic, nor will she ever be able to do so.

 

[Mr_Bandman]

Okay....here's what I posted in the "What IS she?" thread:

Here's a theory that does not involve Petunia necessarily being anything other than a muggle. I have argued in another thread that Dudley would be the one to use magic late in life---that Dumbledore had been suppressing his magical abilities in exchange for Petunia taking Harry in. Suddenly I'm not so sure.....maybe Dumbledore was simply extending the protection of Harry over Dudley as well because Petunia fears Voldemort will come after him----the only family she has left that she cares about. Was Voldemort after Lilly & Harry for something in addition to stopping the prophecy? Could he have been trying to shut down their bloodline? Okay....so who is Harry descended from? That could be huge. It would also mean that Petunia & Dudley are descended from the same line of wizards/witches.........Dudley has magic in his bloodline, therefore his children could continue the family line. Is Petunia simply afraid that Voldemort has unfinished business with her family, and Dumbledore has been keeping their very existence from Voldemort?

Now....let me add to that.....Godric's Hollow is almost certainly the Griffindor family estate. JKR does not make randomly coincidental mistakes, and 2 prominent Godrics are just not going to happen. Two Johns or Bobs, maybe, but not 2 Godrics. No way. The Evans family are the last remaining members of the Griffindor line. (Fawkes could have brought Harry any weapon to combat the Basilisk----but he brought him Griffindor's Sword. Why? Certainly not the cock & bull story Dumbledore gave Harry----in retrospect it seems Dumbledore has often been guilty of withholding information from Harry. No---Fawkes brought Harry that particular sword because it belongs to Harry. It is a family heirloom.) There must be a great reason that Voldemort needs to end the bloodlines of the other 3 Hogwarts founders. I'll put money down that Harry, Dudley, and Petunia are the last 3 members of the last family left.

Thoughts?

 

[Glumbumble]

I think that the immediate problem with this argument is that JKR has already said the Potter’s wealth, and James’ invisibility cloak were inherited from James’ family. Lily’s parents’ are described as muggles, although I have argued on another thread that this does not necessarily mean that that they are from a totally non-magical lineage. The fact that Petunia, when recounting the arrival of Lily’s Hogwarts’ letter says how proud her parents were “to have a witch in the family” seems to indicate that there were no other relatives connected to the wizard world.

Clearly Petunia had contacts with the magical world that she has tried to hide not only from Harry but also from Vernon and Dudley. JKR has said that Dumbledore had communicated with Petunia, by letter, prior to Harry going to Privet Drive. Although this is assumed to be in regard to Harry it does not actually make sense for this to be the case. Had the communication been about Harry and the possibility of him being cared for by the Dursley family why would Dumbledore have left Harry on the doorstep waiting to be found? No Dumbledore and Petunia had some other interest in common.

JKR is, with us mortals, like Dumbledore was with Harry. I do not think that she lies to us, sometimes she says she cannot answer our questions and sometimes she drops hints. For our part we must ask the right questions.

We know for instance that Petunia learned of dementors from “that boy” but we don’t know who that boy is, we assume that it is James but we don’t know.

We know that Snape does not have a daughter, JKR has told us that, but we do not know if he has a son.

We know that Dudley is no more than he seems, JKR has said that.

We know that there is more to Petunia than meets the eye.

I am sure that I have read somewhere that JKR has confirmed that Dudley is the child of Petunia and Vernon, but I cannot confirm that.

What we do not know is whether Dudley is Petunia’s only son!

We know that Petunia is the nosiest woman in the world but could she also be the most frightened? Is she always waiting for the possibility that there will be a knock on the door that will reveal another part of her life? After all when Vernon intended to expel Harry from the house, in OotP, she said that Harry must stay but did not give a proper explanation to Vernon.

Snape and Petunia seem to me to be made for each other. Petunia spoils her son, Snape spoils the members of his house! Both hate Harry!

Maybe Lily took Snape home at some point before her relationship with James and a relationship developed between him and Petunia. That could be the reason that they both hate Harry as he is the person that could connect them again.

 

[M.A.H.]

I don't think Snape was willing to go to the Evans: in the pensieve he refused help from Lily and called her Mudblood. Ofcourse this could be te anger of a boy whose girl(Lily) ended their relationship, but I don't think so.

Perhaps 'that boy' Petunia was talking about was a brother of James. I don't know if he has had any siblings but that seems a little more logical dan Snape and Petunia to me.

For Petunia's concact with the magical world, maybe mss. Figg is an option. We don't know why they had always left Harry to stay at her house instead of any other neighbour. Perhaps Dumbledore orderd Petunia to drop Harry at her house for once in a while so she could check on him?

 

[Glumbumble]

Some more quotes;

According to J. K. Rowling, James's parents were elderly, were getting on a little when he was born, which explains the only child, very pampered, had-him-late-in-life-so-he's-an-extra-treasure, as often happens, I think. They were old in wizarding terms, and they died. They succumbed to a wizarding illness. She has also said that Harry's considerable inherited fortune came via his father James from the Potters, and that she made them wealthy because it was something she would have wished for herself.

'You ran away from home?'
'When I was about sixteen,' said Sirius. 'I'd had enough.'
'Where did you go?' asked Harry, staring at him.
'Your dad's place,' said Sirius. 'Your grandparents were really good about it; they sort of adopted me as a second son. Yeah, I camped out at your dad's in the school holidays, and when I was seventeen I got a place of my own. My Uncle Alphard had left me a decent bit of gold - he's been wiped off here, too, that's probably why - anyway, after that I looked after myself. I was always welcome at Mr and Mrs Potter's for Sunday lunch, though.'

Rita: What happend to Harry's grandparents? Will we ever learn about them?

JKR: They're all dead and not particularly important to the story, although you will find out a little bit more.

I don't think that "That Boy was James' brother.

However/, everyone should keep their eye on Snape, I'll just say that, because there's more to him than meets the eye,

No, she is not a Squib. She is a Muggle, but—[Laughter]. You will have to read the other books. You might have got the impression that there is a little bit more to Aunt Petunia than meets the eye, and you will find out what it is. She is not a squib, although that is a very good guess. Oh, I am giving a lot away here. I am being shockingly indiscreet.

Interesting use of the same words to describe both Snape and Petunia?

If not Snape could Petunia have been involved with someone else.

 

[Mr_Bandman]

I think that the immediate problem with this argument is that JKR has already said the Potter’s wealth, and James’ invisibility cloak were inherited from James’ family. Lily’s parents’ are described as muggles, although I have argued on another thread that this does not necessarily mean that that they are from a totally non-magical lineage. The fact that Petunia, when recounting the arrival of Lily’s Hogwarts’ letter says how proud her parents were “to have a witch in the family” seems to indicate that there were no other relatives connected to the wizard world.

I don't agree with that assessment at all, G. I think Petunia's & Lilly's parents would have been terrified to have a witch in the family if they hadn't already known of the existence of the magical world. Maybe they were muggles who were descended from an off-shoot of a magical family. I don't buy the argument that there were no other relatives connected to the wizard world. Why else would they have been so proud "to have a witch in the family"? Besides, my argument is that Voldemort may want to end a family bloodline, and it could very well be the Evans side of the family. Maybe they were trying to hide their lineage by assimilating into muggle society and diluting the blood, so to speak. Maybe that's part of Voldemort's plan---to rid the world of "diluted" blood----that would make a great deal of sense, especially considering JKR's admission that she modeled V & the DEs after Hitler & the SS.

I don't know, but I do feel that dismissing it as a possibility altogether doesn't hold any water either.

 

[Glumbumble]

Mr. Bandman. Perhaps we are two nations separated by a common language.

You have presented an argument that involves Harry, and Dudley being descended from Godric Gryffindor. In supporting your argument you have proposed that Godric’s Hollow may have been the Gryffindor family estate, and well it might. You have proposed that the Gryffindor bloodline runs through the Evans family, which I can see no evidence for.

Using quotes from the books and from several of JKR’s interviews I have tried to clarify what we know about Harry’s family. When I say that the “immediate problem” with your theory is that both cannon and comments indicate that the Potter’s wealth, probably including Godric’s Hollow, come via the Potter lineage and not the Evans lineage simply means that that is something that needs to be explained. It is not that your idea is wrong it is rather that it is not supported by evidence.

JKR has said that Harry’s grandparents are all dead and not particularly important to the story, although you will find out a little bit more. She has also said that we will learn more about James’ family in later books.

[QUOTE="The Leaky Cauldron and Mugglenet interview Joanne Kathleen Rowling: Part Three," The Leaky Cauldron, 16 July 2005}MA: His family?
JKR: Family, yes.
MA: Should we talk about that a little more?
JKR: No. But you can! [Laughter.]
MA: What about Harry's family — his grandparents — were they killed?
JKR: No. This takes us into more mundane territory. As a writer, it was more interesting, plot-wise, if Harry was completely alone. So I rather ruthlessly disposed of his entire family apart from Aunt Petunia. I mean, James and Lily are massively important to the plot, of course, but the grandparents? No. And, because I do like my backstory: Petunia and Lily's parents, normal Muggle death. James's parents were elderly, were getting on a little when he was born, which explains the only child, very pampered, had-him-late-in-life-so-he's-an-extra-treasure, as often happens, I think. They were old in wizarding terms, and they died. They succumbed to a wizarding illness. That's as far as it goes. There's nothing serious or sinister about those deaths. I just needed them out of the way so I killed them.
MA: That sort of shuts down Heir of Gryffindor [theories], as well.
JKR: [Pause.] Yeah. Well - yeah.[/QUOTE]

You mention in the last post that the Evans’ would be “terrified to have a witch in the family” this has been addressed by JKR.

HPFreak7: How are muggle parents convinced to let their kids go to Hogwarts, a strange place they never heard of before; and wouldn't they think it was a practical joke?
JK Rowling replies -> In the case of Muggle parents, special messengers are sent to explain everything to them. But don't forget that they will have noticed that there's something strange about their child for the previous ten years, so it won't come as a complete bolt from the blue.

I guess that this applied to Hermione’s parents, the Creevey brothers’ parents, Justin Finch Fletchley’s parents et al.


JKR has said that had Lily moved aside and allowed Voldemort to kill Harry she would have lived and this would not support the idea of ending a bloodline, had it existed, and had it gone through the Evans family.

[QUOTE="The Leaky Cauldron and MuggleNet interview Joanne Kathleen Rowling: Part One," The Leaky Cauldron, 16 July 2005]ES: This is one of my burning questions since the third book - why did Voldemort offer Lily so many chances to live? Would he actually have let her live?
JKR: Mmhm.
ES: Why?
JKR: [silence] Can't tell you. But he did offer, you're absolutely right. Don't you want to ask me why James's death didn't protect Lily and Harry? There’s your answer, you've just answered your own question, because she could have lived and chose to die. James was going to be killed anyway. Do you see what I mean? I’m not saying James wasn't ready to; he died trying to protect his family but he was going to be murdered anyway. He had no - he wasn't given a choice, so he rushed into it in a kind of animal way, I think there are distinctions in courage. James was immensely brave. But the caliber of Lily's bravery was, I think in this instance, higher because she could have saved herself. Now any mother, any normal mother would have done what Lily did. So in that sense her courage too was of an animal quality but she was given time to choose. James wasn't. It's like an intruder entering your house, isn't it? You would instinctively rush them. But if in cold blood you were told, "Get out of the way," you know, what would you do? I mean, I don't think any mother would stand aside from their child. But does that answer it? She did very consciously lay down her life. She had a clear choice –[/QUOTE]

I am sorry that you felt that I dismissed your argument, which may have been the case had I not supported my arguments with evidence from books and interviews. I look forward to seeing the supporting evidence for the ideas that you have put forward.

 

[Mr_Bandman]

To be accurate, my "argument" was really nothing of the sort....it was and is just spur of the moment speculation that frothed up from something someone else posted. They started as simple rambling questions regarding Petunia's pronounced shock at learning of Voldemort's return, leading to questions regarding how much she knows, how she came to know it, etc. Again, just speculation....for the fun of it. She knows something, and I believe it is more than she would have learned growing up in a muggle home with a sister who was "different" and who she resented deeply.

I am convinced that there will be occurrences in the final book that will make us scratch our heads and say, "Hey---she said that wasn't a big deal". Upon digging for quotes and interviews and "evidence" we will probably find that she found a clever way to sidestep an issue or to word her answer in such a way as to conceal the "truth" or her own intent. I also think that pure reliance on cannon and comment, as you put it, are going to make us miss a few things in trying to piece it all together. Again, that's just speculation on my part. The only "evidence" I have to support that assertion is that I have yet to read one of her novels that did not hit me with something that I did not anticipate. So...I find myself jumping to all sorts of wild conclusions....some more lucid than others....and it's fun.

I will be very surprised it the Godric for which Godric's Hollow is named is not Griffindor. She does not make coincidental mistakes like that. As to whose house it currently is, I understand why the Potter's wealth "probably" included Godric's Hollow?. I think, however, that assumptions are the soil in which plot twists grow. Again, unsupportable conjecture......but I like sifting through the ideas, and I like the banter it generates.

 

[Glumbumble]

The issue of the connection of Godric’s Hollow and Godric Gryffindor is right.

And I'm going to ask one other question which you'll say isn't clever at all. The significance of the place where Harry and his parents lived, the first name -- Godric Gryffindor.
Very good, you're a bit good you are, aren't you?
Thank you.
I'm impressed. My editor didn't notice, I said to her haven't you noticed any connection between where Harry's parents were born, not born, where they lived, and one of the Hogwarts houses and she's sitting there going erm... I'm not being rude about Emma she's a brilliant editor, the best I've ever [had]. But no she didn't pick that up either. You're a bit good you are.

"Because that's part of the excitement of the story, and having sweated blood to create all my red herrings and lay all my clues...
"There is one thing that if anyone guessed I would be really annoyed, as it is kind of the heart of it all.
"And it kind of explodes everything - and no one's quite got there, but a couple of people have skirted it."

The clues are out there we must enjoy finding them

 

[Piper]

I was going to start a new thread, but this is brought up here, somewhat.

JKR saying: She is not a squib, although that is a very good guess. Oh, I am giving a lot away here. I am being shockingly indiscreet.

How could Squib be a good guess? This keeps bugging me. I keep going in circles, she can't be a half-sister to Lily and have one magical parent, or else that would make her either a witch, OR a squib. You can't just be a muggle if you have one magical parent and are not magical. And Lily had both muggle parents. JKR has confirmed this.

JKR has said that Petunia has never been able to perform magic, and won't start now either.

I know that there is speculation about her love live with various characters, and that could fit, but is there something we are missing? Are there non-magical people who are NOT Squibs, but know more than Muggles, other than relatives and such of Witches and Wizards? Kind of like Fleur is part Veela, but I take it that Veela are very attractive creatures. Something like a Veela though?
Something like a squib that isn't a squib?

 

[Glumbumble]

I think that there are three types of non-magical people; Muggles, Squibs and witches or wizards who have lost their magical powers. DD tells us in HBP when discussing Merope

“I do not think that she wanted to be a witch any longer. Of course, it is also possible that her unrequited love and the attendant despair sapped her of her powers; that can happen.”

Now, I wonder how the children of either witches or wizards who had lost their powers, or the children of squibs are described? Would they be Muggle-born? If so this offers a large range of opportunities to explain Petunia’s knowledge of the magical community and also why Lily was not disciplined for the use of magic, In front of muggles and whilst underage.

Another option exists as a result of JKR’s original story of Dean Thomas;

“Dean is from what he always thought was a pure Muggle background. He has been raised by his mother and his stepfather; his father walked out on the family when Dean was very young. He has a very happy home life, with a number of half-brothers and sisters.

Naturally when the letter came from Hogwarts Dean's mother wondered whether his father might have been a wizard, but nobody has ever discovered the truth: that Dean's father, who had never told his wife what he was because he wanted to protect her, got himself killed by Death Eaters when he refused to join them. The projected story had Dean discovering all this during his school career. I suppose in some ways I sacrificed Dean's voyage of discovery for Neville's, which is more important to the central plot.”

So it would have been possible for both Lily and Petunia to believe that they were Muggle born when, in fact, one or both of them were not.

When Harry looked into the Mirror of Erised he “looked into the faces of the other people in the mirror, and saw other pairs of green eyes like his, other noses like his, even a little old man who looked as though he had Harry's knobbly knees -- Harry was looking at his family, for the first time in his life.” And later “And there were his mother and father smiling at him again, and one of his grandfathers nodding happily”

The mirror did not seen to show Aunt Petunia or Dudley, both of whom are blood relatives. Does the mirror only show people from the magical community? Some of the relatives would be James’ family but those with “Lily’s eyes” would be family of Lily and Petunia. Do Lily and Petunia have different fathers?

It is my view that Lily and? Petunia have some sort of connection to a magical family and I think that to some extent Petunia knows this.

 

[Piper]

Well, I had just assumed that the mirror was only showing dead people, that is an interesting thought. If it does show only magical people, and there were green eyed people, that means there were other magical people in Lily's family.

JKR has said the parents were strictly muggles. Not important to the story. She killed off the Grandparents so that Harry would be alone. She said that Lily had no other living relatives besides Petunia. She has not said that there are no relatives who might have died before Lily that would be important to the story though.....



Maybe an Aunt was magical too? A witch aunt that told the girls stories as they were growing up? About Voldemort, and Dementors? About the magical world in general? If both girls grew up hoping for that Hogwarts letter, and only one of them got the letter......... Petunia wouldn't technically be a squib in that instance, but she sure would have felt like one........

Another thing is that we were shown how cruel James could be, and I have to wonder now if maybe Lily couldn't have been a little cruel herself, to Petunia.