kausarqadir
Time Turners
PS/SS Keeper of the Keys said:
now have we been told about this one in detail. i mean Lily and James closer to dd....... and y volde didnt try to get them to his side?
potters close to dd?
- Thread starter kausarqadir
- Start date
now have we been told about this one in detail. i mean Lily and James closer to dd....... and y volde didnt try to get them to his side?
They were obviously very close to Dumbledore. He offered to be their secret keeper, he did the spell work and he lead them in the Order.
Who says Voldemort didn't try to get them on his side? Hagrid may not know of an attempt, but perhaps one was made. I personally think he tried to get Lily's loyalty, and then would have used her, which is why she had to stand aside.
Remember, they were losing the war. They were outnumbered 20-1. Maybe Lily just wanted to survive.
Who says Voldemort didn't try to get them on his side? Hagrid may not know of an attempt, but perhaps one was made. I personally think he tried to get Lily's loyalty, and then would have used her, which is why she had to stand aside.
Remember, they were losing the war. They were outnumbered 20-1. Maybe Lily just wanted to survive.
Padma Patil
Dumbledore's Girl
Yes, I've always had the impression that Dumbledore and the Potters were close. Which is why I'm guessing is one of the reasons Dumbledore is so fond of Harry.
Though I have always wondered what went on between Lily and Voldemort.
Though I have always wondered what went on between Lily and Voldemort.
Weasleyfanforever
Time Turners
Meredith said:
Yes, he did offer to be their secret keeper, but what I think is important here is that they turned him down and went with Sirius, and then did the bluff with Peter. But why turn down the most powerful wizard of the time, when he is offering help? The only person that your enemy is scared of is offering you protection and you don't take it? That is kinda fishy...
Also, Dumbledore only did the spell work on the first spell, he didn't know that Sirius and Pettigrew had switched (supposedly). Why wasn't he trusted with the information that they had switched? I am not really thinking that the Potters were as close to Dumbledore, as he, or we are led to believe.
mimbulus mimbletonia
Time Turners
What would happen to the secret if the secret keeper dies? Does the spell stop working or does the secret die with the secret keeper?
I'm wondering if they thought dd was too risky in that he was such a target for voldy or the DEs.
I'm wondering if they thought dd was too risky in that he was such a target for voldy or the DEs.
Tinkerbell
Time Turners
Weasleyfanforever said:
You've got a really good point here Wheezy, something that I have never really thought too much about before. As you say, Voldemort is known to be wary of Dumbledore, so if that could have added to the protection offered by Dumbledore as their secret-keeper, why not allow him to do it? Methinks this is gonna add fuel to the Dumbledore is Evil fire!!
That is interesting, why turn down the most powerful wizard of your time? Maybe though, it's not because Dumbledore is evil,, but because the spell has more power when their is more emotion behind it.
While they liked Dumbledore, Sirus and the Potters were very very close. Perhaps that would have afforded them more protection. Then, when they switched to Wormtail, it was a bluff, but as a friend, he still offered them protection.
When Harry's mother died, she did so to save him and her love gave him lots of protection. Perhaps it is similar.
While they liked Dumbledore, Sirus and the Potters were very very close. Perhaps that would have afforded them more protection. Then, when they switched to Wormtail, it was a bluff, but as a friend, he still offered them protection.
When Harry's mother died, she did so to save him and her love gave him lots of protection. Perhaps it is similar.
yarvelling
Time Turners
James and Sirius were BEST friends....James and Dumbledore were not...no matter how much trust, and respect for him James and Lily may have felt, Sirius was always the closest....
Much like Harry and Ron. I would expect that Ron would be Harry's secret keeper, if Harry ever needs such a thing, rather than Dumbledore. I think that the spell has a lot to do with the personal bond between people too, rather than just who is trustworthy or not!
As with all magic, it's as much about the mental power behind the spell, and the will, and heartfelt feeling; in which case, Sirius would have been the only choice, as Ron would be for Harry...
Much like Harry and Ron. I would expect that Ron would be Harry's secret keeper, if Harry ever needs such a thing, rather than Dumbledore. I think that the spell has a lot to do with the personal bond between people too, rather than just who is trustworthy or not!
As with all magic, it's as much about the mental power behind the spell, and the will, and heartfelt feeling; in which case, Sirius would have been the only choice, as Ron would be for Harry...
Weasleyfanforever
Time Turners
yarvelling said:
I have to disagree here. If that were the case that it dealt with the personal realtionship and amount of trust put into the relationship, I don't think that it would have worked on Pettigrew. What we need to remember is that the Secret Keeper was changed to Peter, Sirius wasn't the SK. So, Sirius wasn't the only choice, Peter was chosen in the end, and no matter what, I think Dumbledore would have been a better choice that Peter, if Sirius wasn't being used, and I think we really need to look at why Dumbledore wasn't used...
Here are some reasons I would aviod using Dumbeldore in their situation:
1. He is an internationally known wizard who is very musy. He is high profile and very visable. Therefore if someone wanted to hurt him, they easily could.
2. Though I am sure they had respect for him, I don't know how personally close they were. In such a frightening situation, they would want someone close to them.
3. Maybe they felt like they were intruding, or Dumbledore should be the one they ask if no one else could.
There are any number of possibilities.
1. He is an internationally known wizard who is very musy. He is high profile and very visable. Therefore if someone wanted to hurt him, they easily could.
2. Though I am sure they had respect for him, I don't know how personally close they were. In such a frightening situation, they would want someone close to them.
3. Maybe they felt like they were intruding, or Dumbledore should be the one they ask if no one else could.
There are any number of possibilities.
Weasleyfanforever said:
If I recall, I believe Sirius says something about how he himself convinced the Potters to go with Pettigrew as the Secret Keeper. So, the Potters chose Sirius - and we all seem to agree that we can see why - but then Sirius is betrayed by Pettigrew and convinced to encourage his friends to switch the vital information over. As everyone has said, the Potters seemed to have placed ultimate trust in Sirius and therefore, when he suggested Pettigrew, they probably thought he knew what he was doing and trusted him as they had before.
Weasleyfanforever
Time Turners
Meredith said:
1. I really have to disagree that if anyone wanted to hurt him, they easily could have. Obviously, if it were possible for Voldemort to hurt Dumbledore, he would have. He would have wanted the only real obstacle he knew of out of his way, so I highly doubt that it would have been easy for him to be hurt.
2. They were in the Order, and as Lupin says, either the Order used to be smaller, or there were just more DE's, as they were outnumbered 20-1. Even now, everyone, discounting Snape, is very close, and I think that the second time around, they might have realised the error of their ways, as they used Dumbledore for the Secret Keeper for the OotP HQ
3. Again, with Dumbledore being their leader, and the most powerful, I don't think that they would have felt that they were intruding. Dumbledore should have been their first choice, not a last resort. I am pretty stuck in the belief that there is a good reason that James and Lily didn't use Dumbledore...
The facts speak for themselves in this case - just leaves a question ...
1. Dumbledore is the omly one Voldemort feared.
2. Dumbledore is/was the most powerful wizard of his time
3. Dumbledore knows magic and places that would have kept him uncompromised
4. The Potter were in an order headed by him - they also seemed to share a more close relationship with Dumbledore than most
Just those few point should make anyone jump up and ask why the heck they didnt use him - was he obvious - sure but was he the safest bet - well we are lead to believe in his power - as such it mattered not how obvious a person he was - Voldemort wasnt going to try and attack him - and if he did Dumbledore was in the best position to fight him - so yah - ask them questions
1. Dumbledore is the omly one Voldemort feared.
2. Dumbledore is/was the most powerful wizard of his time
3. Dumbledore knows magic and places that would have kept him uncompromised
4. The Potter were in an order headed by him - they also seemed to share a more close relationship with Dumbledore than most
Just those few point should make anyone jump up and ask why the heck they didnt use him - was he obvious - sure but was he the safest bet - well we are lead to believe in his power - as such it mattered not how obvious a person he was - Voldemort wasnt going to try and attack him - and if he did Dumbledore was in the best position to fight him - so yah - ask them questions
Weasleyfanforever
Time Turners
Blaise said:
The thing is also, most of these points can be proven through looking closer at the books thus far.
1. We are told straight out that Voldemort feared Dumbledore, in fact, as I am sure you all know, there is a chapter titled after the fact.
2. We have had many characters say that Dumbledore is the most powerful wizard of their time, that is really all we have to go on....
3. I think this one is also best proven in OotP as well. After the scuffle at Hogwarts, Dumbledore should have been captured, but he wasn't, and the reason for that is that he knows where to go and what to do to protect himself, and he would have been able to do the same for Lily and James.
4. Everyone in the Order, with the exception of Snape, is like a family. Members of the Order helped the kids make the HQ fit to live in and have meetings at, they also often came for dinner when there were no meetings.
I think they were all very close, and as such, they should have chosen the best possible candidate, that being Dumbledore, to be their secret keeper. What we need to figure out is why. Did they have a reason not to trust him?
I don't think they chose Sirius because they didn't trust Dumbledore, I think it goes deeper than that. James placed his trust in his best friend who made a judgment call to switch to Wormtail, and Sirius admitted that he only did it to fool Voldemort. Who would think they'd place their lives in the hands of the cowardly Peter Pettigrew? It would have been the perfect ruse if it weren't for their miscalculations in regards to Peter's loyalty to the group.
I'm sure since Dumbledore didn't know they had switched from Sirius to Wormtail that it was Lily who put the Fidelius Charm on him, after all, she is good with charms. If they had any doubts about Dumbledore they wouldn't have even told him that Sirius was going to be the Secret-Keeper, and I'm sure they wouldn't have taken his advice about going into hiding. The information that Voldemort was after the Potter's had to come from Snape's spying expeditions as he was already working at Hogwarts when the Potter's were killed, thus Dumbledore had to be the one who warned them they were in danger.
I think Lily and James were close to Dumbledore. I think in some ways Dumbledore might have been watching James while at Howarts as well. He mentioned to Harry in PS/SS when he admitted to him that it was he, Dumbledore, who had given Harry the Invisibility Cloak for Christmas that when James had the cloak, he only used it to sneak into the kitchens to steal food. Therefore, there had to be a reason why Dumbledore felt the need to watch over James while he was at Hogwarts. Plus, Dumbledore was close enough to them so that he felt the need or responsibility to prepare for Harry's safety and future. Dumbledore began preparing for Harry's care before Sirius got hauled off to Azkaban, even though Sirius was Harry's godfather and his legal guardian. When Hagrid rescued Harry from the destroyed house and Sirius showed up and told Hargid he'd take Harry, and Hagrid said no, Dumbledore wanted Harry taken to his aunts - Sirius didn't argue with that. If there had been a lack of trust in Sirius toward Dumbledore he would have demanded Harry since he was his legal guardian and obviously cared a great deal about him.
I'm sure since Dumbledore didn't know they had switched from Sirius to Wormtail that it was Lily who put the Fidelius Charm on him, after all, she is good with charms. If they had any doubts about Dumbledore they wouldn't have even told him that Sirius was going to be the Secret-Keeper, and I'm sure they wouldn't have taken his advice about going into hiding. The information that Voldemort was after the Potter's had to come from Snape's spying expeditions as he was already working at Hogwarts when the Potter's were killed, thus Dumbledore had to be the one who warned them they were in danger.
I think Lily and James were close to Dumbledore. I think in some ways Dumbledore might have been watching James while at Howarts as well. He mentioned to Harry in PS/SS when he admitted to him that it was he, Dumbledore, who had given Harry the Invisibility Cloak for Christmas that when James had the cloak, he only used it to sneak into the kitchens to steal food. Therefore, there had to be a reason why Dumbledore felt the need to watch over James while he was at Hogwarts. Plus, Dumbledore was close enough to them so that he felt the need or responsibility to prepare for Harry's safety and future. Dumbledore began preparing for Harry's care before Sirius got hauled off to Azkaban, even though Sirius was Harry's godfather and his legal guardian. When Hagrid rescued Harry from the destroyed house and Sirius showed up and told Hargid he'd take Harry, and Hagrid said no, Dumbledore wanted Harry taken to his aunts - Sirius didn't argue with that. If there had been a lack of trust in Sirius toward Dumbledore he would have demanded Harry since he was his legal guardian and obviously cared a great deal about him.
Dumbledore offered to be their secret keeper, didn't he? But they turned him down? This was because of the prophecy, the Potter's knew their son was in danger, but didn't want the entire order to lose Dumbledore should Voldemort over power him.
Working backwards from when Harry got the cloak....his parents died 12 years prior, he was born one year before that, and Voldemort was in power for how many years? 11 years...which means...does that mean James and Lily were still at school when Voldemort first rose to power? Is it possible that James and Lily defied Voldemort whilst they were still at school? Counting for the first time of three?
What if, and this is a big if, the Marauders were ordered to kill Snape by sending him in to Lupin (by being threatened or controlled, not coz they were working for him), but James broke the Imperius curse or flat out refused, therefore saving Snape and defying V? It would explain why DD watched James closely at Hogwarts. And of course, DD would protect whoever James decided to marry.
Then again, Lily could have had her own special powers that she herself used against Voldemort, so she'd have needed watching too. That'd be two times defying Voldemort. The third they did together by joining the order...
I think DD is close to all the members of the order, and he got closer to the Potters upon hearing the prophecy, so I daresay he was close to the Longbottoms too.
Working backwards from when Harry got the cloak....his parents died 12 years prior, he was born one year before that, and Voldemort was in power for how many years? 11 years...which means...does that mean James and Lily were still at school when Voldemort first rose to power? Is it possible that James and Lily defied Voldemort whilst they were still at school? Counting for the first time of three?
What if, and this is a big if, the Marauders were ordered to kill Snape by sending him in to Lupin (by being threatened or controlled, not coz they were working for him), but James broke the Imperius curse or flat out refused, therefore saving Snape and defying V? It would explain why DD watched James closely at Hogwarts. And of course, DD would protect whoever James decided to marry.
Then again, Lily could have had her own special powers that she herself used against Voldemort, so she'd have needed watching too. That'd be two times defying Voldemort. The third they did together by joining the order...
I think DD is close to all the members of the order, and he got closer to the Potters upon hearing the prophecy, so I daresay he was close to the Longbottoms too.
... the fact remains the same - it is a fundemental fact at that - the best person in the whole Wizarding world was Dumbledore - everyone knows this!
Put the Potters in Hogwarts under Dumbledore's protection and nothing would have got to them - they would have been all alive and no doubts Voldemort might have got what is coming to him another way ...
It cant be any simpler than that - other than to say without JKR removing Dumbledore from the picture- the story would be a non-event ...
The Potters had to die to create the story of Harry Potter - but still - you have to question what we know of Dumbledore, the Potters, Voldemort - in fact the whole central core of the books because there is no denying that Dumbledore was the perfect protection - and with such a precious cargo for the Potter resting on it - there was no room for error in the plans - they knew better than most what Voldemort was capable of.
Put the Potters in Hogwarts under Dumbledore's protection and nothing would have got to them - they would have been all alive and no doubts Voldemort might have got what is coming to him another way ...
It cant be any simpler than that - other than to say without JKR removing Dumbledore from the picture- the story would be a non-event ...
The Potters had to die to create the story of Harry Potter - but still - you have to question what we know of Dumbledore, the Potters, Voldemort - in fact the whole central core of the books because there is no denying that Dumbledore was the perfect protection - and with such a precious cargo for the Potter resting on it - there was no room for error in the plans - they knew better than most what Voldemort was capable of.
yarvelling
Time Turners
How can we be so sure that the Potters would be perfectly safe if they had holed-up at Hogwarts?
Voldemort knows where Hogwarts castle is so he would have no difficulty in finding it, and had he found out that the Potters were there, he would have gone without hesitation. Pettigrew would probably have been able to give him that info.
Do we know yet if Voldemort is an animagus? I'd find it pretty 'odd' if he hadn't mastered that art! If Sirius could enter Hogwarts undetected in his dog form, then I would imagine that the 'Big V' could easily slip in too - I would guess that his animal form would be a serpent, so he could easily keep to shadows, dark corridors etc. He could then have found the Potters with little difficulty, and done whatever he saw fit!
If he couldn't do this, then I would imagine that he could have brought an army of Dementors, trolls, DEs, and giants and wrecked havoc on the castle and its' occupants until he had found Lilly and James. Of course, this would have left him very vulnerable and open to injury, so knowing him, he'd have let his minions do the dirty work until thte Potters had been found and it was safe to come out into the open.
Voldemort knows where Hogwarts castle is so he would have no difficulty in finding it, and had he found out that the Potters were there, he would have gone without hesitation. Pettigrew would probably have been able to give him that info.
Do we know yet if Voldemort is an animagus? I'd find it pretty 'odd' if he hadn't mastered that art! If Sirius could enter Hogwarts undetected in his dog form, then I would imagine that the 'Big V' could easily slip in too - I would guess that his animal form would be a serpent, so he could easily keep to shadows, dark corridors etc. He could then have found the Potters with little difficulty, and done whatever he saw fit!
If he couldn't do this, then I would imagine that he could have brought an army of Dementors, trolls, DEs, and giants and wrecked havoc on the castle and its' occupants until he had found Lilly and James. Of course, this would have left him very vulnerable and open to injury, so knowing him, he'd have let his minions do the dirty work until thte Potters had been found and it was safe to come out into the open.
If Voldemort was/is an animagus I don't think he'd have the need to possess Nagini or other creatures. When he was less than whole, sure, but now he has his body back, why hide within Nagini? And before Harry knocked him one, when the curse failed, he ruled with fear, not stealth, so I don't think he had any need to be an animagus. Perhaps, too, the steps he took to gain immortality somehow made it impossible for him to do it anyway.
Plus, he had his mignons to do the dirty work, so if anyone was caught, it would be them, not him.
I think this means Dumbledore is more powerful than we give him credit for. We know he is powerful, but yarvelling is right. If Voldemort was after the Potters while they were at Hogwarts, he could have stormed the castle. But, they may not have really been a problem until after the prophecy. Sure they could have defied him, like I mentioned in my last post, but a lot of people give V the irrits, and the Potter's weren't part of his ultimate plan until little Harry came along.
Does any of that make sense???
Plus, he had his mignons to do the dirty work, so if anyone was caught, it would be them, not him.
I think this means Dumbledore is more powerful than we give him credit for. We know he is powerful, but yarvelling is right. If Voldemort was after the Potters while they were at Hogwarts, he could have stormed the castle. But, they may not have really been a problem until after the prophecy. Sure they could have defied him, like I mentioned in my last post, but a lot of people give V the irrits, and the Potter's weren't part of his ultimate plan until little Harry came along.
Does any of that make sense???