**Spoiler - Regrets **

gbogbo

Time Turners
What is going on in this scene? Is it:

A) The forced reliving of a terrible memory? If so, whose?

B) Is it a magical phenomenon similar to priori incantatum whereby something Dumbledore does forces this past history to just come bubbling out?

C) Something else?

D) Christina, do you think that the crucio is taking place in the present tense? or are you saying that the crucio happened earlier and was being relived by Dumbledore?
 
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Alz

Administrator
Staff member
Does this strike anyone as possibly the conversation that took place at Godric's Hollow?

For example:

"Make it stop, make it stop" (James? - while being cruicioed?)

"Dumbledore screamed." (Lily? - her scream as James is AKed?)

"It's all my fault, it's all my fault..." (Peter Pettigrew / Snape? - as he realizes what he's brought on.)

"Don't hurt them, don't hurt them, please, please, it''s my fault, hurt me instead." (Peter Pettigrew / Snape? - as he sees what is about to befall Lily and Harry)

"Please, please, please no ... not that, not that, I'll do anything..." (Lily? - as Voldemort gives her the terrible choice of releasing Harry?"

"KILL ME!" (Again, Lily? - begging Voldemort to kill her instead of Harry --- remember what JK says about Lily making a choice)

If so, then this could have been what was seen through the eyes of Voldemort.

Is this scene just giving us more details about that night? Is it something that Dumbledore wanted Harry to know? What other voices are there? Snape? Hagrid? What was going on with the "I don't want ... Don't make me ..." and "... Let me go ... "?

Yay - we made it there in the end!
Yes - I would suggest this is happening in or around the fateful night - JKR's latest revalation about no-one has asked her how D got the cloak and also the fact the details we have from this night - considering the only living person present was a baby has always bothered me - plus the raising of the alarms etc
I'm thinking Snape or Dumbledore was there ... when I read this - I then thought Dumbledore ...
Question is - would Dumbledore beg like that to Voldemort?
Well - having watched James die, knowing Lily would be next or worse still the baby Harry ... yes!

What is going on in this scene? Is it:

A) The forced reliving of a terrible memory? If so, whose?

B) Is it a magical phenomenon similar to priori incantatum whereby something Dumbledore does forces this past history to just come bubbling out?

C) Something else?

D) Christina, do you think that the crucio is taking place in the present tense? or are you saying that the crucio happened earlier and was being relived by Dumbledore?

The potion was devised somewhat to make the person forget about what they were doing - including drinking the remaining potion and maybe hit that water and thus a watery death ...
I think it was designed to make someone relive their worse ever memory - to really keep them away from what was going on - confront their demons etc ...

I still believe this is Dumbledore around that fateful night - I just cant believe he was not around the Potters - it just doesnt fit!
 

christina

Time Turners
i think it was happening earlier, possibly around the nite harry's parents died and crucio bein used on him caused him so much pain that he actually cracked and revealed whoevrs secret he was keeping. wen he drank that potion it caused him to relive the pain he went thru and remember that he betrayed sumone close to him. i hav no idea whos secret it was or wut the secret mite hav been but it miteve been sumthing really important.

well maybe he was reliving the moment wen he pleaded to voldy to leave harry and family alone. he feels bad cuz he had told about the prophecy or didnt erase snapes memory of it or something like that so it was to the point that he was the only person who knew about it. maybe voldy knew that dd knew the whole prophecy and he didnt and he tracked down dd to find out wut the rest was and crucio-ed him.i know a lot of that is jumbled and probly doesnt make any sense at all:confused: . but its not like what dd is saying is makin any sense anyway, rite?;)
 
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Alz

Administrator
Staff member
You know the more I hear Dumbledore living the moments of the fateful night but in third person - I am really liking that!
From someone who still believes DiE - I think there is a more possible sinister side but on the off chance and trying to get a more mainstream opinion, I would go with the premise Dumbledore is seeing the events of that night - but from who's eyes?
I would have thought it would be one person - since Voldemort made the protection perhaps it was him - but then again he concealed that Horcrux well before the fateful night - as such does the potion link back to Voldemort when drunk?
If so, then he must be aware of his horcrux being disturbed ...
Nah - I like the possibility but given JKR's recent comments about no-one asking her how Dumbledore got the invisibility cloak ... the house being practically destroyed post attack ... and would Dumbledore really have deserted the Potters with no real protection other than a charm ... I think there is a way Dumbledore was with Voldemort at some point that night ...
 

gbogbo

Time Turners
You know the more I hear Dumbledore living the moments of the fateful night but in third person - I am really liking that!
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I like the possibility but given JKR's recent comments about no-one asking her how Dumbledore got the invisibility cloak ... the house being practically destroyed post attack ... and would Dumbledore really have deserted the Potters with no real protection other than a charm ... I think there is a way Dumbledore was with Voldemort at some point that night ...

The more I read it, the more I think I agree. I had been focused on Voldemort's actions that night, but JKR's clues about the cloak and such are really intriguing. I think you are right. I think this is Dumbledore's memory.

Someone had mentioned Hagrid being imperioused on that night. What if we hypothesize some more...

"I don't want to...I don't want to...Let me go..." (Dumbledore? - Warning Hagrid that, although he doesn't want to hurt him - he will, if Hagrid doesn't let him go.)


P.S. Any ideas how the basin got refilled after R.A.B.?
 
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christina

Time Turners
yea im starting to really think dumbledore was there sumhow whether evryone present at the time knew it or not. . ..but that leads to a whole 'nother path.. . .i think the idea of hagrid being imperioused that nite is okay but i think wut we already talked about but who knows( jk rowling! ) . . . .i think r.a.b. refilled the basin with sum sort of potion . . . no idea wut it could be . . . . .wow that nite harry's parents died was a lot more complicated then i ever thought. . .i remember reading hp 1 for the first time and i never thought it would be this complicated. . . .
 
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Alz

Administrator
Staff member
I suppose my reality check on this theory would be - would Dumbledore beg to Voldemort like that?
We know that when they met the last time, Dumbledore very much had the upper hand - and we know he didnt rest once that meeting took place - ergo, he would have been watching Voldemort and the DE's moves like a hawk - I mean that was one of the premises for the OoTP right?
So, would Dumbledore have got himself into a situation he would have to beg with Voldemort - knowing all too well Voldemort wouldnt listen unless it involved a trade on Voldemort's terms?
That is why the idea of Dumbledore living memories via a third person would seem to fit - you can see another person begging to Voldemort but not Dumbledore right?
 

gbogbo

Time Turners
I suppose my reality check on this theory would be - would Dumbledore beg to Voldemort like that?
We know that when they met the last time, Dumbledore very much had the upper hand - and we know he didnt rest once that meeting took place - ergo, he would have been watching Voldemort and the DE's moves like a hawk - I mean that was one of the premises for the OoTP right?
So, would Dumbledore have got himself into a situation he would have to beg with Voldemort - knowing all too well Voldemort wouldnt listen unless it involved a trade on Voldemort's terms?
That is why the idea of Dumbledore living memories via a third person would seem to fit - you can see another person begging to Voldemort but not Dumbledore right?

Well, I think this could be the verbatim transcript of the dialog from the night that James and Lily died. I think the begging is from James/Lily/Peter?/Snape? ... or maybe Dumbledore.

Consider this:

The begging dialog is strikingly similar to what Harry is compelled to say in OoTP when Voldemort is attacking him:

"And when the creature spoke, it used Harry's mouth, so that in his agony he felt his jaw move ....
'Kill me now, Dumbledore...'
Blinded and dying, every part of him screaming for release, Harry felt the creature use him again ....
'If death is nothing, Dumbledore, kill the boy ....'
Let the pain stop, thought Harry. Let him kill us....End it, Dumbledore....Death is nothing compared to this...."

Could this be Voldemort taunting Dumbledore about that fateful night? If so, it could be one of two things: (1) taunting Dumbledore for his weak begging of that night or (2) taunting Dumbledore about his impotence to help anyone that night. I suspect the latter.
 
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happy_hannah

Time Turners
someone suggested earlier that he potion caused whoever was drinking it to relive voldemorts worst memories, this can't be true because voldemort would never plead for someone else to live, he only cares for himself. When i first read the book it suddenly occured to me that in dumbledore's lifetime did he ever have a wife and kids? he's certainly old enough, and for some reason i thought he was reliving their deaths or soemthing. but then my next thought was that this potion was obviously like a liquid dementor or something and so forces someone to relive their worst memory. Three occasions come to mind where dumbledore might have pleaded in such a way, he was present at the death of lily and james , or perhaps the torture of neville's parents. or maybe his defeat of the dark wizard grindelwad (or however it is spelt), its curious that LV would have still been in school when dumbledore defeated him in 1945, how come no one ever mentions this? how come dumbledore doesnt tell harry how he deafeated grindelwad to give him some tips for defeating LV? I am inclined to think that dumbledore was thinking about his students at the time when he drank the potion because that's who he was most protective of
 

Alz

Administrator
Staff member
Well, I think this could be the verbatim transcript of the dialog from the night that James and Lily died. I think the begging is from James/Lily/Peter?/Snape? ... or maybe Dumbledore.

Consider this:

The begging dialog is strikingly similar to what Harry is compelled to say in OoTP when Voldemort is attacking him:

"And when the creature spoke, it used Harry's mouth, so that in his agony he felt his jaw move ....
'Kill me now, Dumbledore...'
Blinded and dying, every part of him screaming for release, Harry felt the creature use him again ....
'If death is nothing, Dumbledore, kill the boy ....'
Let the pain stop, thought Harry. Let him kill us....End it, Dumbledore....Death is nothing compared to this...."

Could this be Voldemort taunting Dumbledore about that fateful night? If so, it could be one of two things: (1) taunting Dumbledore for his weak begging of that night or (2) taunting Dumbledore about his impotence to help anyone that night. I suspect the latter.


I love it!
I believe you could be right - because if Dumbledore is cornered and knows he has to make a sacrifice - he will do it because as in the books when he tells Harry about his mistakes with Harry - he says he didnt mind how many people lost their life as long as Harry was OK ...

I could be way off base here but think for a moment that fateful night and you have a room with Lily, Voldemort, Dumbledore and Harry there ... it would be like a stand off - Voldemort would be concentric on killing Harry, that was his purpose but when confronted with Lily and Dumbledore - he would need to secure his own oily behind ...
Now, sure he could go and kill Harry straight away but in that split moment, he would stand to be attacked by both Lily and Dumbledore ... we know Lily didnt have to die so it would appear like he may have concentrated his efforts on Lily - so now Dumbledore was faced with a choice .. does he try and attack Voldemort knowing Lily would die?
I think this would have yielded submission in Dumbledore - and would have lead to thinking time from Lily - this could be the pleading we hear from Dumbledore during the potion session - he is faced with a situation knowing someone is going to die and he cant do anything to prevent it ...
I can almost see Voldemort using Lily as a shield as he edges closer to Harry - he may even subdue Dumbledore while in submission and then Lily turns - Voldemort has to kill her and then turns to Harry ... the rest is still to be learnt ...
Wouldnt that almost make what happened on that tower in HBP even more significant - because it was like a replay to Dumbledore of what he had endured himself and this time around wasnt going to be left alive to deal with even more painful memories of not being able to do anything ... feeling like Harry under that cloak ...
 

Glumbumble

Time Turners
Being fairly new to this site this is the first time that I have come across this thread. Apologies if I repeat anything that has already been said.

I have always assumed that the drinker of the green liquid is being forced to relive the feelings of the children from the orphanage, Amy Benson and Dennis Bishop, who Tom Riddle tortured in that cave. I think that this may be done by incorporating one of Voldemort’s memories into the potion.

I think that when Voldemort wishes to make a Horcrux he selects a significant person, a significant vessel and a significant location to store the Horcrux.

The ring was hidden in the Gaunt cottage, the necklace in the cave where, possibly, he first tortured, the Diary, well I need to think about that, but it was located around the Chamber of Secrets.

To discover the remaining Horcruxes the location is as significant as the vessel.
 

Norbert

Time Turners
I always just thought that the potion was like - as suggested before - a boggart in a cup, or liquid Dementor.

The analogy I came up with was a potion producing the exact opposite of the Mirror of erised. A potion that took a person to their worst nightmare

"The potion of eramthgin!"
 

gbogbo

Time Turners
Being fairly new to this site this is the first time that I have come across this thread. Apologies if I repeat anything that has already been said.

I have always assumed that the drinker of the green liquid is being forced to relive the feelings of the children from the orphanage, Amy Benson and Dennis Bishop, who Tom Riddle tortured in that cave. I think that this may be done by incorporating one of Voldemort’s memories into the potion.

I suspect you are correct in that this is a relived memory, but I don't think Voldemort would have wanted to share his with anyone else. So, if this is from the orphanage, then we must be seeing one of the children's memories (or a mix of them all). That could be...

But, I think that the spell utilizes Voldemort's powers of Legilimens and pulls up the memories straight out of the drinker's mind, in which case, the memory is that of Dumbledore.

In either case, we have the following clues:

1) The memory seems to be in third person
2) There are at least three people present ("Don't hurt them, don't hurt them...").

The second clue would seem to contradict the orphanage memory theory, since we think that only Amy Benson and Dennis Bishop were present.
 

kashlie

afraid of my own shadow
The contents of the basin

Forgive me if there is a thread already on this, but i would like to discuss what everyone believes Dumbledore drank, and what his cries were about.

I am currently listening to this part of HBP, and had a thought.

Voldemort needed to kill people in order to fill the underground lake with Inferi.
From previous comments, I believe Voldemort only killed people he deemed worthy of him...if you know what i mean.

So...I think he had someone help him in this respect, to lure people to the cave. Remember he took the two orphans there, when he was younger?

Harry says the basin looked a bit like a pensieve...the contents glowed similarily to that of memories, although green.

What I think Dumbledore had to drink, was the stolen memories of the person responsible for luring the victims to the cave, and killing them. Cries of remorse, 'Make it stop', etc...

I can imagine that being forced to ingest such horrible memories would weaken a person greatly. Perhaps even, they were the memories of all the Inferi - including the person who led them there. I believe Voldemort would have killed that person, 'making it stop'.

the other thought i had, but it was a fleeting one, was that Dumbledore infected the contents whilst trying to extract the liquid by other means. i mean, had he just known to drink it out, the contents would have been harmless, but upon being tampered with, they became poisonous.


i would like to hear other's thoughts on this.
 

Glumbumble

Time Turners
Re: The contents of the basin

I have always assumed that the drinker of the green liquid is being forced to relive the cries of the children from the orphanage, Amy Benson and Dennis Bishop, who Tom Riddle tortured in that cave. I think that this may be done by incorporating one of Voldemort’s memories into the potion.
 

Padma Patil

Dumbledore's Girl
Re: The contents of the basin

This is an interesting theory. I have just finished reading HBP last night and was wondering myself what it is exactly that Dumbledore had to drink. Because, while he was drinking it, he became weaker and weaker. But after the basin was empty he became a bit stronger as they went along. I mean he passed out after the stuff was gone, but then was able to get back up and preform a spell and fly on a broomstick. Admittedly though he was still weak when he was talking to Draco on top of the astronomy tower, but he was still gaining back strength.

I do like the idea that it is the memories of the inferi though. It seems appropriate for Voldemort, who feared death and dead bodies, to do that.
 

secret seeker

The Half Blood Prince
Re: The contents of the basin

My first impression was that the green liquid is like a liquid boggart. Dumbledore in his minds eye probaly saw his worst fear, Hogwarts students being tortured or killed by death eaters, and he was talking to Voldemort, begging him to stop.
But speculation always leaves room for other opinions, so who knows except j.k.r.
I think Riddle would assume the wizard/witch would leave the cave without the locket rather than carry on reliving their worst fear.

Oh... padma.... I loved your " click me " to find out about Snape, I think we probaly know now what Snape has had to endure. Poor b****r.
 
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Alz

Administrator
Staff member
Those are all good idea's - I like them a lot!
But still - I cant help but feel this runs deeper ... a lot deeper ...
Dumbledore went white when Harry told him he knew about Snape and what he did ... I wonder if the Dumbledore/Snape story isnt the only hidden truths in all of this ... Dumbledore was very sorry about something - and I suspect it could be third person as suggested but I am feeling pretty sure it has to do with Harry's parents ...
 

Hoggy Warty Hogwarts

Outside Playing Quidditch
Those are all good idea's - I like them a lot!
But still - I cant help but feel this runs deeper ... a lot deeper ...
Dumbledore went white when Harry told him he knew about Snape and what he did ... I wonder if the Dumbledore/Snape story isnt the only hidden truths in all of this ... Dumbledore was very sorry about something - and I suspect it could be third person as suggested but I am feeling pretty sure it has to do with Harry's parents ...




Yeah i think i would have to agree on that one i always thought it went deeper whenever i read the books but i wish i knew what it was between Dumbledore and Snape because it always seemed like we might get closer to it and then we dont find out, like when Dumbledore did get white i thought here we go were going to find out why he trusts Snape but then we didnt
 

jsez4444

Time Turners
I think this is the most interesting thread I have come across on this site. I really had wondered what was happening to DD when he was drinking the potion but I just assumed it was extreme physical pain. All of these theories seem like really great ideas but the one I see the most potential in is the one about him being present at Lily and James' murders. I absolutely think that he must be reliving a memory of his because I think that your worst memory will always cause more pain than somebody else's worst memory being replayed for you and whoever put the potion there (RAB or LV) knew that. I also think that on that point the person putting the potion there would not have known who was going to drink it so if they were going to put someone elses memory then they would have no idea who's memory might effect the drinker in the most painful way. That leads me to conclude that the memory is from the drinkers own mind and nobody else's.

Based on the dialogue it makes a lot of sense that he was there when it all happened, possibly under Jame's Invisibility Cloak. I also really like the idea that it is Snape or Pettigrew who is begging LV not to hurt Lily and Harry, personally I think it is more likely that it was Snape. There is that little theory out there that Snape was in love with Lily so when he realised the consequences of what he did he wanted it all back, he never wanted Lily to get hurt. This might also have been the reason he switched sides. If DD had seen Snape break down like this and then Snape had sworn to DD that he was switching allegiances this could be the reason that DD trusts him so exclusively too.

I don't think it could be DD himself pleading because if he was pleading with anyone who was an enemy of his and he told them to kill him I'm sure they would have, especially had it been LV seeing as how the only person he ever feared would have been giving up.

Now the only thing I can't quite get my mind around is that if DD was there he must have been incapacitated in some way for him to be unable to help. The question is who incapacitated him and why? Also if he had been incapacitated under the invisibility cloak (just like Harry in the tower,) LV must not have known he was there or he would have killed him. So it couldn't have been LV who did it, and assuming we think Snape was there I don't think it would have been him or LV probably would have known too since we also assume they came together to begin with. This leaves Lily, James, and himself (Harry technically but come on,) it is very possible that James could have done the same thing to DD that DD did to Harry in the tower but you would think that he would have appreciated the help from DD when he knew that LV was coming. I can't see anyone like Hagrid physically holding him back because he is too powerful and could easily have escaped using magic.

So the only thing I can come up with is that James, willingly stunned DD so that when LV came in he was out of harms way, he could not have been forced to or LV would have know. This only leaves the question as to why he did it.

There is still a lot to learn about this scene and what actually happened, but I think we may be getting closer.
 
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